Can we agree AP kog'maw needs to be nerfed?

Legendairee·5/30/2015, 8:16:27 PM·6 votes·3,050 views

Incarnation plays like crap for the first 30 min of the game, is a full item behind bjergsen, but is able to do more damage than anyone in a team fight because of Kog'maws ratios. Seriously, all you need is 2 items and a blue buff. That sounds like a pretty toxic champion design. Lower the ratios or lower the distance.

30 Comments

atomicwit5/30/2015, 10:23:39 PM6 votes

Here are my thoughts as an avid AP Kog player in high Gold (even before the indirect buff via Luden's):

He's strong late game but teams need to take objectives/turrets when Kog is basically useless (first 20 min, pre-11 and Luden's) and they should secure a good advantage. You have to be decisive vs a late game scaling champ. like Vayne, Poppy and Kog'Maw. You should even try barons if Kog dies and your team can handle the pressure. Don't get cocky and stall out the game like I see so many teams do.

You should definitely not panic and go for risky kill trades (which will almost always favor the late game champ). AP Kog's winrate even in Diamond is only 50%. His ADC counterpart actually performs better there. He is quite a situational pick in high ELOs and hasn't been seen in the LCK this year yet. Even in the other regions, you see one in a blue moon when the comp. is perfect for it. You just need to know how to adapt to him. It's a different way of playing.

For example, teams CLUMP vs AP Kog and often don't flank or split push. AP Kog isn't very mobile, if you have good flanks with Righteous Glory (assuming you clear vision) or a strong split push like Zed + Yi/Tryndamere, AP Kog's teamfight prowess will be largely wasted. His rotations are quite slow and he needs vision setup + Blue to be really effective. Moreover, he's vulnerable to assassins like Talon, LB or Katarina and can't match their roams either. Finally, I often see teams fail to buy Locket or itemize MR vs Kog's AoE. With those things done, he's not so scary.

It's also important to note that Kog's ult. ramps up in mana cost very quicky. Stealing his Blue will gimp him pretty hard. I feel 2x as strong with Blue as a Kog'Maw. Likewise, try to avoid teamfights if Kog got Blue (or at least make sure he dies quickly). Similarly, if you've seen Kog poke 3-4 times (assuming your team isn't too low from it), that's usually a GREAT time to engage. Kog needs time for his mana cost on the ultimate to reset. If you engage after he's used 4 already, he'll run out of mana very quickly. Many teams get intimidated by the early poke and don't engage. Then Kog just resets his mana cost on the ultimate. After the the next round, his team can actually engage because the window is closed and the poke has done its job at this point. There's nothing worse than afking mid with 5 members vs a poke comp.. Split-pushing, flanking and literally almost anything else is a better idea.

BTW: Kog really punishes other mages with low mobility or just bad compositions in general. Try to save your mid pick for last. I've even seen teams pick comps. that are wholly and utterly unviable vs poke. They had no assassins and no hard-engage, literally just random champions picked with no thought. Poke champions can punish this especially hard.

CreationFlaw5/30/2015, 11:02:02 PM3 votes

I mean, he's a hypercarry, so it's really not that surprisingly. That's like asking why Vayne can still 1v1 people even if she's behind.

Durzaka5/30/2015, 8:45:17 PM3 votes

Luden's Echo is getting nerfed. Which is what broke AP Kog maw.

insaiyanbacca5/31/2015, 12:19:40 AM2 votes

what do you want? most of his ratio's for ap are shit except for his e.

lostbob1175/30/2015, 11:41:42 PM2 votes

Complaining about AP Kog before complaining about Xerath. They are very similar.

3TWarrior5/30/2015, 11:32:54 PM2 votes

kogmaw is a hybrid champion and one of the few who successfully does so. Nerfs aren't necessary...he already has a low pick rate

Lugg5/30/2015, 9:07:37 PM2 votes

Kog is EXTREMELY weak early. That is why Bjerg got so far ahead. Plus, even in late game, he has no escapes, so anytime you are out of position you die. Kog is fine, he has amazing damage and range late game to make up for his entire lack of mobility.

Shroom Junkie5/30/2015, 11:34:06 PM1 votes

LOL. Some guy in the LCS plays AP Kog'maw and wam needs a nerf. AD Kog'maw is worse. The ult AD ratio is higher than AP ratio. The only good thing about AP Kog'maw is the upgrade to the other abilities

atomicwit5/31/2015, 9:30:51 PM1 votes

AP Kog's only similarity to NIdalee is having great poke.

Nidalee is nearly uncatchable even with flanks and her spears are actually way higher damage than Kog's ultimate (often leading to an easy execute). Besides her high mobility, she also has a heal and is pretty hard to push out in extended fights. Her mana costs are far more forgiving too so she isn't as Blue dependent.

Moreover, Nidalee is already useful very early. AP Kog needs 20-25 minutes to at least get level 11 and Luden's. Before that, he's essentially nothing more than a form of waveclear. He barely even has follow-up to a gank pre-6. His roams are nothing compared to Nidalee and his damage (which btw is all dodgeable) is lackluster.

However, there's no doubt that unless Nidalee has some amazing plays, AP Kog will outscale her. If AP Kog didn't at least have a late game to make up for being a liability 20+ minutes (often getting bullied from CS too) then there would be no reason to play him. He has an interesting and unique cat & mouse style playstyle that has every right to be viable. It's not as if his winrates are impressive and Luden's is getting nerfed next patch anyway.

I suggest you read my previous post and see what your team is doing to adapt to the pick before QQing. I used to main AP Kog and know how to counter him just as well as playing hm.

SlytherinUmbreon5/30/2015, 8:25:34 PM1 votes

Alternatively, we could bring mages back up to a reasonable point so that Kog'maw is no longer the best poke mage in the game. No? Ok :c

Anyway, his ratio's are fine. His Ult scales for 30% AP. the reason why he does so much damage is because A) item 3285 Which is already getting nerfed and B) His ult is on a 2-1 second CD. If you're even going to nerf him, do it right: increase his ult CD

atomicwit6/1/2015, 4:11:56 PM1 votes

The comparison is irrational and I already outlined why. Nidalee has amazing mobility tools (even a heal!) with no serious mana issues and isn't useless for 20 minutes. Her spears also used to nearly 1-shot champions. You're basically arguing against the concept of an immobile poke hypercarry with a lot of counterplay. Kog's ult. even shows you exactly where it will land. Furthermore, he is both CD (to reset mana costs) and mana gated along with lacking any mobility or defensive tools. His ultimate goes up to 300 mana per shot if used frequently. It seems like you're set on an opinion and ignore all evidence to the contrary. There's nothing more I can tell you. I even made a long post outlining many ways to deal with an AP Kog.

BTW: I think Nidalee is perfectly fine except for invisible spears.

DrCyanide5/30/2015, 8:27:52 PM1 votes

I've yet to be impressed with Power of Evil's AP Kog, so either there's more to it than you are suggesting or the EU LCS picks compositions that naturally counter it.

SinisterJoe5/30/2015, 8:33:00 PM1 votes

screw that crucify ekko before you worry about other champs.

Blue Collar Bear5/30/2015, 8:42:57 PM1 votes

Well, he has clear flaws from a design stand point. He legitimately has no innate escape. However, in the current "protect me, fat irish man" meta, strong sustained damage dealers with no legitimate escape will be ideal. If I had to give advice, in the current meta where it's about who can peel better and who can single out the enemy better, I'd say bring Xin Zhao against these comps. As Xin Zhao, you have the ability to easily isolate a carry whilst disrupting the enemy team's entire engage. If your team succeeds in following up on the pick, the enemy team now has only one carry and three tanks that deal no damage, who have also been chunked by THIS: 75 / 175 / 275 (+ 100% bonus AD) (+ 15% of enemies' current health)

Seriously, play more Xin Zhao.

Abyssphere5/30/2015, 8:51:40 PM1 votes

I think the Luden's nerf should take care of him. He sucks to play against but I imagine he'll be fine after this. It says a lot that he's meta though, above actual poke/siege mages. I wonder could it be because his mana regen is not as atrociously bad as mage mana regen, hmm?

SS Enforcer5/30/2015, 11:21:45 PM1 votes

Salty tsm fan detected

My name is Sora5/30/2015, 11:23:20 PM1 votes

No. No we can't agree.