Post-DFG Veigar Main Thoughts

I've been playing Veigar a lot lately (with a pretty high success rate) and, as a Veigar main, thought I'd share my thoughts with the community regarding the recent loss of DFG for Veigar. Please, let's be civil in our discussion

NOTE This discussion isn't really about how to build or play Veigar. I play the way that works and wins games for me. It's about his balance position and I'm just ONE POSSIBLE way of adapting to the changes to make good use of Veigar (which I've done so far). I think it's important because it indicates ways we can adapt and, therefore, gives us a better approximation of Veigar's balance.

Item Build Changes Old Build (in approximate build order): DFG // Rationale: Early game, I just want CDR and defense to farm up Q (hence Chalice > Fiendish Codex) Before grabbing DFG to start my mid game and insta-gibs. Follow that up with extra damage and then grab a defensive item so I'm not prey to Vi, J4, etc.

New Build (in approximate build order): / / Rationale: My biggest discovery with the DFG loss is that Veigar needs very little to do a lot of damage. I never really gave enough credence to his scaling; again maxing CDR to farm up quickly while playing the defensive game. This build has the perk of the CDR coming a bit cheaper and earlier which is a HUGE boost to my early game farming. My WOW-I'm-doing-awful quota of 100 AP in 20 mins has become significantly easier.

As a result of my recent discovery, I don't prioritize damage as much anymore. I get dived a lot because I do a lot of damage. I get double-triple kills pretty consistently in team fights which makes me a primary target. At this point in the game, a Randuin's+Warmog's will stop that Vi in her tracks (at least long enough for me to kill some people). With Q, I continue to scale damage such that I can still kill any carry.

Power Curve There are 2 massive changes to Veigar as a result of losing DFG. The first is that late game, I can no longer instantly kill 2 targets (DFG+W+Q for 1, R+W+Q for the other). Arguably healthier for the game; I dunno (he is a hypercarry. Sort of).

The other is how late his mid game comes. His original power curve was mostly linear scaling with his Q farming slowly bringing him up; The bonus CDR from Athene's (and MR) brought up a small spike, followed by another from fiendish codex. Then, there was a huge spike from DFG which was the signal that mid game has begun. DeathCap>Void Staff both brought 2 more huge spikes followed by a low-slope linear scaling from Q farm.

His new power curve is much slower. Early game has a much lower slope as a result of the nerfed mana regen gating his farm a bit more than it used to (I run MP/5 runes, masteries, and items and it's still rough. Note: experimentally, double Faerie Charms perform better than Doran's start). After all, I do need to keep enough mana to E in case of gank. His mid game also comes much later because, without DFG, his insta-gib abilities come closer to 20+ minutes into the game. Past that, it's all similar though the bruiser-esque build of 2 tank items murks up the comparison (bruisers/tanks scale via how much damage they can soak up as well as how much damage they deal; it becomes a bit of an apples and oranges comparison). For the most part though, his damage doesn't suffer all that much.

DISCLAIMER: I am, by no means, arguing that Veigar is a tank nor that he should be played as such. The "Bruiser" Veigar build I'm proposing starts becoming somewhat tanky late game. It's a response to the heavier teamfight atmosphere of lategame and mobility creep as well as taking advantage of Veigar's scaling. It's essentially the Nasus philosophy: Why build damage when I get infinite scaling of it for free? He should still be in the back and taking advantage of windows of opportunity. He just now assumes less risk doing so.

Overall Power Comparison: In a lot of ways, Veigar's new power curve is almost healthy. It's still the same oppressive early game and it used to be incredibly oppressive for the opponent when he got DFG and could instantly kill you with utter disregard. Delaying it a bit makes laning feel more impactful. That said, it also means that Veigar's team suffers immensely. I get trolled a lot in champ select (with many leaving games in ranked) when I pick Veigar. It's probably because unlike other mids, I can't contribute much mid-game which makes me a liability for nigh 30 minutes before only potentially carrying the game. Essentially, I bring the utility of AoE 2.5 sec stuns. While other mids are ganking lanes and taking objectives, I'm farming.

I only have a sample of ~8-10 games post-DFG compared to my easily over 100 pre-DFG-Removal games but in general, my enemy team has been far less inclined to complain in all chat about the balance of Veigar. My conjecture: Veigar doesn't start insta-gibbing you and snowballing 20 mins in, becoming inevitably stronger. Instead, my team complains. But, hey--life of a Veigar main. I think this says a lot about how Veigar feels for everyone. For my team, he feels like a dead weight; something you have to carry and nobody wants to play with. For the enemy, he (was) is oppressive and requires a lot of micromanagement to deal with. General dissatisfaction all around :/

That said, Veigar was slightly underpowered before (aforementioned mid game problems make him generally less competitive than other mids as well as being easily bullied in a game with heavy emphasis on snowballing). After the changes, his late game does suffer (no more double insta-gibs; it's pretty significant) and his mid-game comes much, much later. Which punishes my team (and, consequently, me). He still manages to only be slightly underpowered; his E will always keep him away from the brink of unviability. He's still fairly competitive and can do well but he's not a hyper carry in the same sense anymore which means the reward for his awful early game has been completely diminished.

My Suggestions More indepth suggestion Here. The TL;DR of it:

1. Passive needs to go; reduce his mana costs, give him a real passive.
2. W delay could be a bit shorter (Tenacity hurts) and possibly some added utility.
3. R Scaling on target AP consumes a lot of power budget that could probably be better allocated for Veigar's theme.