Agency = / = Power. Crit Hypercarry ADCs have too much power but too little agency.

Unironic SJW·2/16/2018, 3:50:39 AM·49 votes·2,477 views

Around this time, ADC was in a shitty state - everyone hit their spikes faster, tanks were broken, tower first blood gave the jungler more incentive to camp bot, and the increased pace of games meant ADCs never got to their strong points, unless they built lethality. This was the "ADC in 2K17" meta. Now, obviously the situation is very different today (some would call it the "Top in 2K18 lul" meta or the "Everyone else in 2K18 lul" meta, but despite that, the role still isn't very satisfying, despite having in theory a decisive influence on games once you hit your 2-3 item spike. Why not satisfying?

Agency, the same reason top isn't satisfying.

So you're facing a 7-1 Twitch and he's shredding your team. You got 2 shotted by the Shiv crit or whatever and you feel frustrated. But the question is, how did the Twitch get to that point? Was it because he outlaned your ADC and snowballed the game? For the most part no. Did the Twitch skillfully position to avoid assassin damage or evade a key cooldown? Nope. Twitch got fed because his jungle ganked bot 5 times while your jungle was farming (and somehow being out CSed), and you can't shut him down because Janna negates your entire kit. Twitch literally just needs to throw a few autos out and he wins the game, but he's really just a baby on a stroller that needs to be mothered for 30 mins until he can melt the enemy team. And if he doesn't get babied, he goes 1-4 instead, his autos tickle the enemy frontline, and he dies with 2nd least damage dealt.

So what's the solution? Clearly Riot has decided to "reward" marksmen with skyhigh DPS, at the cost of being dependent on their team. But because your team is a variable in SoloQ, it basically takes player skill and agency out of the equation. You didn't win the game because you were a better ADC, you won the game because your team (particularly your Jungle/Support, two roles that have had a massive amount of power, reliability and quality of life added to them) was better. Basically the polar opposite of what most players see the ladder as. But we can't add agency to the class, because of their extreme mid-late game damage. So it's pretty clear in my mind what has to go.

Now, how to go about this? I have my preferences, but I'd like to get a discussion going.

57 Comments

Teridax682/16/2018, 3:07:02 PM16 votes

I think this thread makes a good point, that even if marksmen have dominated the scene for quite some time, that has not necessarily translated to more fun gameplay for even marksman mains. Generally, I'm of the opinion that a marksman-centric meta is a meta that hurts marksmen, too: because you're the most important member on your team, the slightest mistake can have huge negative repercussions, and spiral into a loss more easily than for anyone else. This also means every member of the enemy team is going to be doing everything in their power to make you fail (e.g. with 4-man ganks in lane), so effectively, more than anyone else, marksmen aren't really given room to fail or take risks. Marksmen therefore end up having fairly poor agency, since their permanent VIP status means they can't really stray too far from the safety of their team without running the risk of sinking the whole match. This is also why League largely feels a bit too team-focused and not the best on giving players individual agency, since one person messing up can put their team disproportionately far behind.

I also very much agree with the conclusion: I think the best way to go would be to reduce the raw amount of power given to marksmen, and spread it more equally, but also relax the restrictions imposed on the marksman class as a result. Marksmen should not be mandatory, nor should they be the essential component to every teamfight, but they absolutely deserve presence across every lane, a greater variety of modes of scaling, and the agency to succeed on their own while still contributing to their team. Ultimately, marksmen are a playstyle more than anything else, and that playstyle deserves to be celebrated and rewarded on equal terms with others, rather than ascribed an excessively strict set of core game requirements and limitations.

Part of why the ADC debate here has been so bitter I think comes from the common misunderstanding that power equals agency: people complaining about the power or mandatory status of marksmen are upset because that kind of power feels unfair, and feels limiting to their own agency as well as the amount of diversity in every match. People defending the current state of marksmen, however, from what I've seen are largely concerned that they're just being asked to suffer, and forced to become less present, even more team-dependent, and less able to deal with incoming focus, thereby sacrificing what little agency they truly have. Ideally, the compromise we would all likely be happy to work towards is one where marksmen lose some power, but gain significantly more agency and diversity as a result. I personally do not believe every marksman has to be team-dependent, and in fact I think there are quite a few marksmen who should naturally be very independent (e.g. Ezreal, Graves, Lucian, Quinn, etc.), and I think more fully integrating marksmen into the larger pool of champions across all positions could potentially give marksman players much more choice, freedom and even consistency (you'd get to pick a marksman practically no matter which position you'd end up with), without having to force that with a rigid, stagnant meta.

GinoSoldier2/16/2018, 5:12:49 AM15 votes

I would do an enormous amount of rebalance to the ADC class, with the goals being;

-Change many ADC's kit numbers, base damages and scalings so that some of them are meant to rule the early game, some the mid game and some the late game. Instead of having the entire class compete with each other for a similar goal, have them aim at different power spike times for closing/deciding the games. You know, like every other class.

-Rework Crit Chance into a new damage modifier called 'Crit Damage' that would boost specific sources of damage in each ADC's kit (and other champions, as this would open 'Crit' to all classes (Hello Anivia and Karthus who have built-in magic crits.). Each champion would require to meet certain conditions to proc the bonus crit damage, giving them effective windows of power and skill expression. Each instance would be balanced per champion. Examples would be; Cait's Headshots, Vayne's Silver Bolts and either Sivir's Boomerang Blades or a boost on an Autoattack after successfully spellshielding. This would also have the benefit of removing the much hated RNG crits from the game.

-Together with the above point; Lower general ADC Autoattack damage output in exchange for better agency over their own safety. Give better self-defense to their kits, not items, and couple it with a moderate amount of reliable lifesteal/self sustain so that the class works less as a burst-or-be-bursted class.

bwop2/16/2018, 3:58:15 AM14 votes

I feel like I can't be bothered to play adc without farming because my team won't peel me when I'm trouble. Farm farm farm... then I get a item 3031 and a item 3085 then a item 3153. Get into a team fight, STILL GET BLOWN UP. Damn, playing Twitch (favorite champ despite the stench) is either stomping or being completely useless :/ because my team can't be bothered to do anything to keep me ALIIIVVVVVEE.....

Critmaster Garen2/16/2018, 11:34:46 AM13 votes

if you truly think adc have little agency, then play fucking top lane for a change. just play the lane for a week straight so you have some perspective.

your class has too much power AND agency. youre implying that the same person who plays on bot lane, which outcome decides for the most part the outcome of games has little to no influence on winning the lane, which is ridiculous.

junglers and roams are a poor excuse. they have the same influence on mid and top lane as on bot lane. while i agree, that junglers are a bit too strong at the moment and dont get punished enough for wasting time on failed gank attempts due to catch up xp and slow camp spawn timers, marksmen have a large influence on the outcome of their own lane.

unless your support just sits there and auto attacks minions nonstop, YOURE the one in control of the lane. how far you push out, when, if and where you freeze it. youre the one whos lasthitting and influences how the pacing of the lane plays out.

if you get aggressively ganked, then you bring yourself into the position to get ganked too much. if you dont get ganks from your team, then youre not manipulating the lane properly to get those ganks. yore shoving in too far, or not far enough at inappropriate times. you dont give your top laner deep wards to tp in from behind or youre doing other stupid shit that costs you the lane.

Sona Ping2/16/2018, 4:49:15 AM10 votes

Twitch got fed because his jungle ganked bot 5 times while your jungle was farming (and somehow being out CSed), and you can't shut him down because Janna negates your entire kit.

So... one team devoted a lot of time, effort, resources, and cost into gaining an advantage for their team and succeeded at doing so while their direct opponents failed and another player on that team was able to have tools available to him for him to use to help him do his part to win the game. This occurs simultaneously to three people on the other team, more than half, doing nothing to match, exceed, or mitigate this advantage.

So I propose this question to the many who have repeatedly expressed their disagreement to the opposing view: How much do people have to do before they are allowed an advantage? How many correct plays do they have to repeatedly make before the community will think that is okay for them to have that? The question is just exactly how many times does the enemy need to repeatedly make mistakes, how many times does the other team need to fail before the community is willing to say "yeah, they don't get to win this one" in a player versus player game?

Because it seems to differ from what the game's mechanics say.

Diamond2Kappa2/16/2018, 5:16:36 AM5 votes

I wouldnt say they have too little agency, every role loses if their team loses. Adcs just dont solo decide the game even tho it revolves around them.

Poske2/16/2018, 12:00:16 PM5 votes

This is true. The Title alone made me upvote

Carries are OP but they mostly need to be spoon feeded

Now there are few individual exceptions like Ezreal, Draven but yeah for the most part carries lack agency

Lucian Waifu2/16/2018, 7:55:44 PM3 votes

Crit should be lowered and maybe even changed completely. It makes no sense that an entire class that is suppose to be dps can have burst, random burst at that, from crit.

HarrowR2/16/2018, 4:08:18 PM3 votes

As an adc main since s1 basically id really love to see marksmen rebalanced so they would work more like old graves or bc lucian,make them more tanky,and give them more 1v1 potential but lower the damage,so you actually have a class that doesnt burst you in two shots but dpses you to death,it would give both marksmen and their enemies more time to react,you couldnt kill a marksmen in two shots but he wouldnt be able to kill you either,that way there would be no frustrating deaths where you felt like it wasnt fair(being killed just by kayn w + auto or being three shotted by vayne) esentially make them feel more like dps mages for example cass or malzh

deadlychuck2/16/2018, 5:38:21 PM3 votes

They've been removing agency from champions for years.

The only ones which ever get any are the champions which are completely overloaded compared to their average opponent.

At this point, they're so deep in the practice that just noticing it now, with champions that you care more about, isn't going to get them to stop.

Tychusfindlay9182/16/2018, 7:38:54 PM2 votes

Yes, junglers need to be fucking weaker all-around.

They can 2:30 gank top and if they get a kill that's it. They'll take that kill gold, camp bot, and basically auto-win.

If they don't get a kill but force you to fuck off top lane then your laner gets an advantage, and he inevitably tps bot or something, and they still auto win.

It's almost always a fucking lose-lose depending on who has the more active jungler.

LegitBusinessman2/17/2018, 1:49:12 AM2 votes

What people don't understand is that while there is the twitch just instagibbing entire teams, there is a 2nd marksman on the other team. Being behind as a marksman in the current game state sucks. It just absolutely sucks. You end up almost perpetually behind and most of the games where you are behind you end up feeling perpetually useless.

I main adc, and I think the role is in such a horrible state. I hate hearing lcs casters say 'Tristana is starting to come online now with 2 items done.' Wtf? Is this even league anymore?

Give us back the base resistances we lost from seals and glyphs.

Hayaishi2/18/2018, 1:09:18 AM1 votes

Tbh i've felt as of lately the problem of the marksman class is Crit.

If crit did not exist, Riot would be forced to rework marksmen into more unique champions.

Look at Varus. IMO the best designed marksman in the game right now. He can use lethality, he can use on hit builds, he can use crit and even built as an AP carry. Even though he was OP with lethality he didn't completely disappear just because Riot gutted the Q spam playstyle. Instead he started to build on-hit and is still a relevant pick these days.

My point is marksmen need to be shifted from crit if Riot ever hopes they are in a healthy place. For some reason critical is THE identity of marksmen for Riot. Which means it can't NEVER be weak because that's what the role is about. And this is the same exact reason why Twitch and Tristana have been the top 2 marksmen for so long. Only in lethality meta Trist and Twitch weren't the best marksmen around but before and after lethality? It's always Trist and Twitch.

OtterlyLost2/16/2018, 3:51:59 PM1 votes

As someone who was away from League for a month and returned to the ADC role, I have to say I hate the current meta. I don't think ADCs are incredibly broken but I do agree that I feel like they have less agency in this game. My experience in the two weeks I've been back have been largely me trying to relearn my role and struggling desperately to get back to the level of skill I once had. I feel like the only role in the game that currently has any real agency of the match is the Jungler and that is frustrating for me as an ADC player. In order to go even in or win my lane completely revolves around what my jungler does and what the enemy jungler does. If my jungler camps my lane, I actually have a ghost of a chance of winning. But if the enemy jungler camps my lane, it feels like I can't do anything at all. Its been a long time since its felt like bot lane was just a 2v2 scenario. It always seems to be a 3v2 or a 4v2 or even, sometimes, a 5v2. I'm not allowed to just play my lane and win my own lane.

Yeah, I get that its a team game. Yeah, I get that its unrealistic of me to think that the enemy jungler will never gank. And if it was just that, I would be fine. But its not. I've literally had the junglers practically living on the bot side of the map. And with the recent changes to support items, it feels awful when you know you're getting camped. Supports can't get early sightstones; Riot decided that warding should be only allowed by those who are ahead. Because if you're getting camped and your support can't honestly easily proc their support item, what do you really do? Buy control wards? They'll clear those out when they inevitably push you in. Use your own green wards? They have such a long CD early game and you get a maximum of two.

And the items and runes are honestly stifling. It feels like I have to take Fleetfootwork and the energizer items, which is frustrating. I prefer having more aggressive runes that allow me to go in and be aggressive or do more damage in teamfights...

Overall, the ADC role has been pretty unfun, even if my main(Trist) is considered "meta" right now. I don't get to build her the way I want. I can't play her the way I want. I can't really do anything in lane the way I want to. I have no control over how my lane goes, honestly, and that, more than anything, is frustrating and unfun.

LordGeovanni2/17/2018, 8:00:53 PM1 votes

Adc lul 2k17 was people trying out newly buffed lethality items for less than 2 weeks on assassins and thus the game was 80% the adcs supposed natural counter but they could still take 2 of them down before dieing if 4 assassins focused them.