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Why Counterjungling is DEAD: AKA Why Tank-Junglers are Massively Underrated

coppinslinger·1/23/2015, 9:40:20 PM·59 votes·5,900 views

What do Sejuani, Sion, Malphite, Amumu, Rammus, and Cho'Gath have in common? That's right, they all have a better win-rate than Lee Sin - the supposed King of the Jungle (A LOT better). Instead of getting caught up in the "Nerf Lee Sin" circle-jerk, flame war, let's explore why these supposedly "unviable" champions have such great success in SoloQ.

This is more of a theory-crafting post to explain the current state of soloQ, the meta, champion-strength, etc. In it I focus a lot of overall game-changes than specifically on the Jungle. I try to focus on what this means to the certain jungle champions' "viability" however.

There are a number of factors that contribute to the relative success of tank-junglers in soloQ. I'll organize my explanation into sections: Why Tank-Junglers/Late-game/Teamfight Champs are Underrated The Early-Game is Less Snowbally than Everybody Tells You Why Counter-Jungling is Dead Objective Changes and the secret to Winning SoloQ - Late-game/Team-fight Compositions

Why Tank-Junglers are Underrated Nobody really likes playing late-game champs. Nobody likes playing tanks. Nobody likes getting pushed around for 30 minutes. Nobody likes having a crappy early-game. Nobody likes having to rely on their teammates to do damage and win games. This is basically why nobody plays Tank Junglers (and other team-fight, CC-oriented champs) at the moment. They FEEL weak and reliant for a majority of the game. When you play a tank-jungler, you likely aren't going to stomp the enemy team into submission, and stompy games are more fun in soloQ (for the team that stomps). Tank-junglers are more consistent, aiming to get that mid-late game powerspike where they can win teamfights for their teams with their tankiness and AoE CC. When you win as a Tanky jungler, you don't feel like you earned it, you don't feel like you out-played your enemy. In reality, what you did is farm for 30 minutes, aimed you CC at the enemy, and won some teamfight at 35 minutes and ended the game in a 5-man push that was completely uncontestable. That isn't the way we picture SoloQ, and honestly, its not that fun. This is why nobody complains about Tank-junglers (and their relative power in soloQ) as much as they do about Lee Sin, Rek'Sai, Leblanc, Fizz, Zed, etc. who all have power in the early-game and feel more smooth and powerful to play (and more powerless to play against when you lose to them).

The Early-Game is Less Snowbally than Everybody Tells You In short, games are longer than they were last season (Averaging 35-40 minutes as mentioned in the 5.1 Patch Rundown by Riot). This means that early-game teams aren't as strong as abusing their early-leads and ending games as they were last season (mostly in lower-tier and unorganized play). The pro's play early-game teamcomps, people in Challenger play early-game teams. However, people in those forms of play are better at abusing early-leads than the majority of the casual/soloQ population. In reality, (in Gold or lower elo especially) your team won't be able to abuse their lead well enough to win off an early-snowball alone. This has a lot to do with the current objective changes in season 5. I'll go into more detail on this later.

In regards to the Jungle, this is the role that is actually the MOST forgiving of early-setbacks. The main reason for this current jungle XP mechanics. This is the result of a change in Season 4 (that nobody ever EVER talks about). Right-now, if you are a lower level than the monsters in the jungle, you get a metric boat-load of bonus XP when clearing camps. So if you suffer an early lose in the jungle as a Tank, its not that hard for you to catch back-up. Its way easier to do so than in a lane. The second reason why the jungle is less snowbally is that the first jungle clear is REALLY punishing to junglers who prioritize damage early. Lee Sin and Jarvan (etc.) have a hard time clearing their jungle early on untill they get some items. That means that their impact during the time they shine the most (the early-game) is mitigated by the difficulty of the jungle. Early-game junglers this season have a relatively harder time establishing and snowballing leads because they have a smaller window to capitalize on.

Why Counter-jungling is Dead Counter-jungling right now is probably THE WORST way for junglers to establish and snowball a lead.

  1. Invading takes time. Junglers don't have time. When you commit to invading the enemy jungle, you need to make sure you aren't passing over wards so as not to get caught in a 1v2, need to place wards yourself, and need to then look/wait for the enemy jungler (all while walking WAAAAAAAY over to the far side of the map. It takes a long time to walk that far). In reality, you'll get the same amount of Gold/XP from a successful invade as you will just clearing your own jungle. Unless you literally walk straight into the enemy jungler while they are clearing red-buff at 1/4 HP, you'll just be wasting your time - especially in the early-game where you desperately need levels.

  2. Invading doesn't establish a large advantage for you team. The only thing that you get from a successful invade is a small set-back on the enemy jungler. It doesn't set your lanes ahead and doesn't set you ahead (in reality, you'll probably be FAR behind in levels from your solo-lanes if you invade, making ganking afterwards difficult). You only slightly delay the power-spike of the enemy tank-jungler in the mid-late game. This isn't really a huge advantage for your team.

  3. Comeback in the mechanics in the jungle are EXTREMELY strong (and often unnoticed). This was prior mentioned because of the XP mechanic in the jungle currently. Power-gaps between junglers are usually the smallest and easiest to close in the early-mid game.

The weakness of counterjungling can be further emphasized by the relative crappiness of item 3711 - the worst and most unpopular jungle upgrade in the game at the moment. Not only is the item just bad, the fact that counter-jungling is also a bad strategy helps create its unpopularity.

In short, if you are invaded as a tank-jungler (probably won't happen, especially with proper precautions, wards, etc.) this is actually an overall boon to your team. Since you catch back up WAY faster than your laners, you should be glad that you are the one being set-behind instead of anybody else on your team. If the enemy jungler is wasting time in your jungle, this is only them wasting their early-game power-spike dicking around with you instead of their carry's lanes (like they should be). Leads in the mid/bot-lane are way more snowbally than leads in the jungle. Getting these lanes rolling is what counts.

Objective Changes and the secret to Winning SoloQ - Late-game/Team-fight Compositions As mentioned earlier, games are going longer - why?

  1. Global gold was nerfed. Early game teams need gold to snowball their lead more than anything else. Dragon no longer gives global gold (or experience for that matter). Towers give less global gold (as a result of changes in season 4). Towers are also harder to take because of shields + lasers. Less towers + less global gold + less global experience = less snowball.

  2. Dragon changes. Now that dragon buffs have been nerfed and reordered, it has become more of a late-game investment than a snowball factor for your team. The #1 reason for this is the % bonuses it gives. % bonuses are obviously stronger in the late-game, meaning early-game compositions can't abuse it at the moment.

  3. Tower/Baron changes. Towers are harder to take. Early-game comps are generally bad at sieges, and bad at diving (especially diving lasers and shields). With the new changes to towers, you basically need Baron to break into the enemy base and start getting inhibs. Baron is hard to take untill 25-30 minutes and again, early-game comps are bad at taking it. This basically guarantees that games will last until at least this point - giving late-game compositions the time they need to scale-up and fight.

All these changes can be summarized. Global gold leads are generally smaller and are traded for % damage/stat bonuses. These bonuses are relatively weak in the early-game meaning early-game leads are usually smaller than last season. Moreover, because of tower/baron changes, these leads are harder to abuse. Since leads are generally smaller and harder to abuse, games go for longer. Since games go for longer, late-game teams with team-fight compositions are a LOT strong than they were before.

This means that Tank junglers that come armed with a lot more CC for their team have better tools for turning around early setbacks, winning those late/mid-game teamfights, getting those essential objectives, and winning the game.

Conclusion So there you have it. This is my explanation for why tank-junglers have such seemingly confusingly high win-rates despite them passing completely under the radar of most of the community.

To combat some possible counterpoints:

  1. Tank junglers can't carry. You're right, they can't carry. If you are Meteos and you are playing in Gold III, then you'll have a much easier time winning your games by abusing enemy mistakes, and snowballing early leads on Lee Sin, j4, Pantheon, etc. If you have the humility to admit the fact that you are actually playing in the elo you deserve however, then tank junglers/teamfight champs are a much more consistent/stronger pick. If you are playing against people at your own level of play, then tank junglers are a great way to abuse the current late-game/objective-oriented focus of soloQ games. Tank junglers are better at closing out games once you have a lead, and they are better at turning around games at that 30-minute point that you are basically guaranteed to get to.

  2. I can't play tank junglers because my teammates always feed!!!!1111 Again, if you can stop catering to your own inflated opinion about your skill, then you'll look past the fact that your bot-lane fed one game. Statistically, over a large number of games, you'll get teammates that go even/get-ahead and that you can rely on. Keep in mind that your teammates are just as good as the people they are going against (and as you for that matter) - that is why they are in YOUR elo (lmao). If you give your teammates the tools they need to carry, they will eventually carry you.

  3. Win-rates don't mean anything. Lee Sin is still objectively better than tank junglers - especially in the highest level of plays. Will most people, especially in low elo, be able to abuse Lee Sin and his early-play making potential though? No, no they won't. By playing tank junglers, you are setting yourself up for consistently strong play, and consistent wins over a large number of games. These junglers have more identifiable power-spikes and are easier to abuse than early-game junglers however. Are they objectively better? No. Do they tend to do better in practice? Yes.

  4. I don't agree with anything you said and you're stupid. Thank you for telling me that. Now please explain what points you don't agree with?

Thanks for reading, and let me know what you think about my theorycrafting!

89 Comments

Narasimha1/23/2015, 10:46:25 PM35 votes

The issue with Lee has never been his win rate. The issue has simply being the guy fighting him, because you are almost literally fighting a champion who has every single move in the game. Gapclosers, escapes, a shield, sustain, hard cc, soft cc, even a steroid. Its aggravating as hell. Kind of like Leblanc when she had her silence. Also, the main issue with tank junglers has always been, as you noted Tank junglers can't carry. And its not so much a numbers thing as a purely psychological thing. People want to have control. They want to be able to say "I was the one who pulled us through." They want to be able to fight on their own skill, not have to rely on others. Thats just how humans are. And honestly, thats why I truly admire real support mains, because they are putting all of their faith in another person and hoping it works out.

zliplus1/23/2015, 9:57:14 PM11 votes

You make a lot of good points, but also a lot of silly assumptions and generalizations for no reason (as in, they don't harm or help your points, you just make them).

You seem to think everyone who plays solo Q is a kill-obsessed stat who only cares about big numbers and big plays.

When you win as a Tanky jungler, you don't feel like you earned it, you don't feel like you out-played your enemy. In reality, what you did is farm for 30 minutes, aimed you CC at the enemy, and won some teamfight at 35 minutes and ended the game in a 5-man push that was completely uncontestable.

I disagree completely with this summary, for example.

  • When I win as a tank jungler, I often do feel like I earned it (when I did earn it, that is).
  • I don't farm for 30 minutes. In fact, tanks should farm less than the average jungler because they often have poorer clear times. Tanks are usually running around covering lane after lane preventing the lanes from getting overwhelmed.
  • Aiming your CC at enemies and protecting your carries or zoning/splitting enemies may not be as flashy as zed plays or lee sin kicks, but it wins games, and it takes skill. The basic skill of positioning and priorities, not the 'mechanics' of how to click buttons to combo your abilities.
ChargeItDownMid1/24/2015, 2:40:11 AM8 votes

[deleted]

Kagemyth1/23/2015, 9:48:52 PM3 votes

i like this post a lot honestly

4nth0l0gy1/24/2015, 5:59:58 AM2 votes

You make some excellent points. It also makes me feel better and worse about my love of Rammus and Maokai. I mean, they're good. But they can feel very unrewarding, which is why I tend to prefer playing Rek'Sai, or Master Yi: you can really carry hard with those champions and FEEL more like you're doing so.

SnackieCakes1/23/2015, 10:11:31 PM2 votes

I think a lot of the heavy CC tank junglers also find success, particularly in lower divisions, because as you say games run long and deathballing is the prevalent strategy.

Once I hit high Gold/Platinum, teams started talking about different options (ex: stall for objectives, planned split push, posting up in the enemy jungle) whereas previous to that the strategy was pretty much always: team push, team fight (and of course many of the other things happened, but sort of incidentally).

I think that's also why lower divisions (and I personally feel this way about myself) aren't as good at leveraging early leads, because everything still leads to: team push, team fight (wherein a single fed person won't often carry).

I do still think there's great advantage to be found in counterjungling, however. With the Chicken Oracles it's actually a lot safer to explore, since you'll actually know when you've been first seen. Also, counterjungling isn't just about pumping yourself up, but also denying the enemy buffs (red/blue) and giving them to your teammates, which can make a huge difference, or just denying the enemy jungler XP/farm - or devourer stacks!

I wrote a really extensive guide on jungling with Nautilus that I think gels well with what you're saying here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/tips-tricks/WEttfuaj-nautirus-exploring-the-depths-of-the-new-jungle-extensive-jungling-guide?show=new

Gromble1/23/2015, 10:31:18 PM2 votes

Also dare I say Zac is decent right now? lol. He is pretty good if you have a team that reacts well to your plays, and that really sums up the tank jungle from what I've noticed. You really rely on your teammates a whole lot.

doubleguac1/23/2015, 11:50:58 PM2 votes

You make some good points, but some of your arguments seem to be built heavily around an assumption that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Nobody really likes playing late-game champs. Nobody likes playing tanks. Nobody likes getting pushed around for 30 minutes. Nobody likes having a crappy early-game. Nobody likes having to rely on their teammates to do damage and win games.

You seem to be assuming that all tanks are late game champions with crappy early/mid games. This seems pretty unfounded to me. Tanks have just as diverse power curves as any other class. Mundo has a terrible early game, an amazing mid game, and a decent late game. Voli has an amazing early/mid game and a crappy late game. Cho'Gath peaks in power in the mid game, when he is able to burst carries on top of soaking fire. Sion peaks in the late game, because his ultimate CD scales so hard with level. Just like there are assassins and carries and bruisers who peak at different times during the game, there are also tanks who peak at different times during the game.

I mean, in a straight up 100-0 fight to the death, a level 6 volibear will beat the crap out of a level 6 rengar. He would even theoretically beat the crap out of a level 6 lee sin--the only reason you don't really see this is because Lee Sin will always just disengage.

Knight SoIaire 1/24/2015, 6:45:26 PM2 votes

your arguments are right but you dont note counter arguments at all here

1.Damage is still> than tankyness, so tank (your teams tank) is better when he sacrifices some defense for damage since he wont surwive so long after all 2. tanks are flawed kit wise atm which forces them to compete with fighters in the carry killing/peeling game where damage actualy matters

i think that those 2 are enough to make tanks crap tier until riot gives them tools that will allow them to play like braum does, they are unable to man up their intended role, and this makes them just realy tanky fighters

Droogzy1/24/2015, 7:54:47 PM2 votes

Well said, I'm actually finding this out myself, I picked up Rammus about a week ago, first real jungle tank I've ever used and I'm having some pretty wild success with him.

While I've only taken him normals and normals drafts so far, I've only lost once out of 15 odd games with him, a success I've never even came remotely close to with using any other jungler.

I don't necessarily directly carry the game, it was clear when I participated in team fights vs when I didn't, that I was a massive difference.

TwoD1/24/2015, 9:09:22 PM2 votes

So what? Who cares, finally the jungle has been more diverse this time, and this game would be a better place without that stupid yellow monkey in every match we play anyway.

BTW, tanks aren't the only one owning in Jungle, so wtf are you talking about, we got Vi, Rengar, Kha'Zix, Master Yi, etc. Lee Sin is a disease that needs to be cured, that clown needs to get gutted into the depths of hell.

MrSlowDie1/24/2015, 6:20:13 AM2 votes

idk about counterjungling, but in the yolo Q you'll hear more "let's group 5" than "I'll splitpush", and tanks win teamfight

ThePlasticSpork1/24/2015, 9:24:33 AM2 votes

Gotta disagree with the "nobody likes playing late-game champions" bit. Maybe people don't explicitly like being tanks, but there's not a general bias against late game. I see Vayne more often than Graves despite the fact that Graves is much stronger early - and arguably is a better champion because of that. Any time someone picks Azir, they obviously are placing stock in late game because that's where Azir shines. Those are just a few examples but the same applies to several others.

Furthermore, one of the snowballing changes you mentioned actually favors damage oriented junglers rather than tanks. The only percentage bonus Dragon gives is a percentage increase to your AD and AP - damage stats. Tanks actually receive almost NO benefits from the percentage based portion of dragon while bruisers/assassin junglers do.

Finally, the crux of this argument is that tank-CC junglers are simply better late game, which IMO is not true. For example, I think Kha'Zix and Vi are better 6 item champions than Nautilus or Rammus. Vi can force bad positioning in much the same way Nautilus can but then also provides the damage (and armor shred - increasing her teams damage) that Nautilus does not. For example, even if Nautilus plants his ultimate on the enemy carry, the enemy team will probably body block his hook so Naut doesn't really have a way to get on top of the carry afterwards. Rammus will simply have a hard time even touching the carry in teamfights. Kha'Zix, by comparison, can essentially instantly destroy squishy targets if they isolate themselves for even a second at 6 items - and I've found that at my ELO I get the isolation bonus surprisingly often in teamfights. This is amplified by the dragon change that I mentioned earlier - Dragon's percentage based damage stats benefit them much more than it does Nautilus or Rammus.

If anything, the only way I can really see CC Tanks being strong late-game is if they have a very late-game oriented carry such as Vayne or Kog'Maw. The tanks can focus their CC into a protective rather than an offensive role, which forces teamfights into basically being a question of whose carry can slaughter then enemies team first. If the enemy team has a stronger late game carry, though, then tanks are just shit outta luck.

DeMendite1/24/2015, 11:26:25 AM2 votes

What a well written post. As a fan of tank junglers, I whole-heartedly agree. I sometimes get frustrated at my apparent lack of influence on the game but your post motivates me to stick it out.

kitcat3001/24/2015, 5:57:07 PM2 votes

I have always felt this way.

Enemy picks LeeSin again - "uuuuhghgh...."

Enemy does the rare pick of Amumu or Rammus - "OH SHIT!!!"

cFlame1/24/2015, 4:12:27 AM1 votes

I disagree with the fact that tank junglers have a huge spike. Tank junglers are meant to either dual with they're tankiness, or work with a team mate to score a kill. Warwick fits the former, Sejuani fits the ladder. They could make the dragon buffs go half flat amount and % values to balance it out.

mvargus1/23/2015, 10:06:06 PM1 votes

Interesting. I haven't had any real experience with jungling or even run into Lee Sin that often at my level, but I already knew that Sejauni and Amumu were likely to be my junglers eventually. This gives me hope that they will be effective.

Thanks for providing some food for thought.

Cenobite Azaziel1/29/2015, 4:04:31 PM1 votes

There are a few mistakes with your post.

  1. You can't compare the champions with such low pick rate (3.5 amumu) with a higher pick rate (37.5). With a higher pool of picks the result tend to become even.If you take a quick look on the challengers players profiles, you will see that Lee sin is the jungler that people don't main. "I main sup!... oh ok.. I'll have to jungle. I'll pick lee sin, because he has no weakness. I have the mechanics of a diamond player". Lee doesn't have to adapt to matchups. He can poke/engage/split push the way he wants.

Meanwhile, amumu generally is a champion that people main, not a off pick. He has a dedicated player bases that nows how to play with him and will dodge or pick another champions if he gets countered. Still, he was one of the top win rates last season with fiddle (with more pick rates because of mid and suport fiddle) and got pushed back by j4.

Pick rates tend to distort the win and lose rates. Even the king of the worse ( urgoth [well is elise now but whatever]) can be played in diamond (see korean players) , as a nieche pick.

  1. Counter jungle is effective against carry/assassins. Jungler that are made for the late game ( Kha, Yi, WW) can be counter jungled because they don't need the EXP to become relevant. They need the gold, they are item dependant. Tank junglers are effective with CC and tankyness. They won't escale because their base damage generally is way better than their ap/ad rate. Counter jungle VS a tank is only effective if you get a kill and the camp. IF you get only the camp, you got some gold but you won't waste all the jungler time.

  2. The game is snowbally as hell now. They removed the rubberband mechanics because they buffed the stats growth. Give a LANER a kill and you will see them sky rocket. You will notice that the jungler will be 3 lvls BEHIND someone that got a kill ( top or mid lane).