Is it really now consider fine to pick an APC to fullfil the support role. At this point, shouldn't it be consider a problem, or riot is just ignoring the issue.
It's pretty annoying to play a real traditionnal support like soraka or lulu and then getting pwn in lane and in overall game by a god damn ap SUPPORT? syndra or cassiopeia.
Edit : or when the other support just build full ap, and is alot more succesful then you with your real support items
Different team comps have different interactions. It's cool that different champions are filling different roles.
Diversity ftw
Then you build ap as lulu and soraka and you realize that you are a better support than said ap carry/support.
It depends on how you're looking at it. At lot of the APs going bot are forming a kill lane. Most of the traditional supports are good because they offer a lot of unique things. Braum with his wall, Janna with her great ability to peel, Sona with her auras, Thresh with his CC and lantern, Soraka's heal spam, and so on.
Mages do well bot and that's fine in my opinion. I like playing support and the different matchups are interesting to get. The traditional supports are far from outclassed though, they just give you something different. The only ones that feel 'weak' don't have to do with the APs being better, it has more to do with having Riot swing the nerf bat at them.
AP Supports have very strong harass potential. This is entirely the reason for the APC support phenomenon.
Champions like Nidalee and Vel'koz can put out a lot of damage at long range. This zones the enemy carry and prevents him from farming. If, every time she advances to kill a creep, the enemy Vayne has to worry about eating a Nidalee spear or a Vel'koz Q or a Ziggs Q or whatever, she's going to miss a lot of CS. She's going to call for jungle ganks, but if Caitlyn and Nidalee have wards up, they'll see the gank coming and run away when the jungler comes. The enemy jungler wastes a lot of time trying to gank bot lane, which makes him underfarmed and underleveled as well as allows Nidalee's allies in top and mid to win their lanes.
Engage comps beat poke comps. Repel comps beat engage comps. Poke comps beat repel comps.
You wanna know something funny? Back in season 2, Morello was against supports having more gold to work with. Saying that mage champions would eventually out phase them.
And the kicker is that Morello used ANNIE as an example of being strong over traditional supports if they were to just give them more gold.
Is it really now consider fine to pick an APC to fullfil the support role. At this point, shouldn't it be consider a problem, or riot is just ignoring the issue.
It's pretty annoying to play a real traditionnal support like soraka or lulu and then getting pwn in lane and in overall game by a god damn ap SUPPORT? syndra or cassiopeia.
Based on the LCS, I'm guessing that this is only a problem in YoloQ. You can't rely on a champion that needs items too support. And yet with Bronze level CS, Supports and APC don't actually look that different. The only reason I would use a mage as a support would be if I needed to take over Lane. (in case the ADC fcks up)
With the new season. Supports Are Probably getting less gold. Due to the shift in gold value from Dragon to the minions and towers. Considering that Supports don't take CS typically. They only get the extra gold from towers.
Traditional Supports are still fairly good considering the LS nerfs back in 4.10. The Problem is more that Early game aggressors are taking the spot light again since the Hyper carries got nerfed( trist, kog, etc.) so Sustain is falling in favor of engage. (or disengage.)
That really only happens during Teambuilder or Normal games, not as much ranked. I think that it's annoying, however they will lack tackiness, hard cc, etc...
IDK man, Sona with 
is pretty legit. Weaker early game but just the amount of stats you can give your entire team is amazing.
That's 25% attack speed, 20 AD, 10% lifesteal, 10% movespeed, 20 MR, and 75% base health regen per ally.
Real supports < APC bot lane ---why is that
APcarries are not ubiquitously better than real supports.
A lot of people in yoloqueue just rank champions by damage potential and damage potential alone in their mental tier lists, maybe adding mobility in the mix - while completely ignoring things like doing well without gold, having CC, AoE, range, utility, sustain, and so on. Using a lot of "real" support qualities well also requires a decent amount of foresight and planning, supports tend to be more the puzzle-solving class in LoL where you win by playing smarter rather than harder, where a lot of the damage rolls are more about doing athletic, split-second stuff.
Also - "real" supports have one of the smallest champion pools in LoL. Look at mage or fighter listings and you've got about triple the selection, and marksman and assassins have a slightly larger selection.
Every class besides Marksman also has no set lane position that's always theirs. Top lane just requires ok 1v1 potential, jungle mostly just requires being melee, and mid-lane tends to require burst: all of which are traits prevalent in several classes. Assassins, Mages, Fighters, and Tanks don't have a monopoly on lanes - so why should "real" supports?
Furthermore, it's really important to look at nerfs with objectively. While everyone generally accepts no champion is released in a perfect state of balance and all champions aren't balanced, the underlying foundation of most threads complaining about nerfs is that all champions are equally balanced and nerfs are directly throwing them underneath a perfectly balanced state.
Finally - the main goal for balance is a capacity to influence wins , not get a large K/D streak going. Supports win games while avoiding K/D methods of winning entirely. They don't hog glory or go in guns blazing, it's very much the smarter not harder style with supports. And as unexciting as it tends to look, supports have frequently out-performed other champions in win rates. In Worlds 4, Janna just got an 85% win rate after coming out of qualifiers with a 90% win rate.
is ready to set the bot lane on fire.. oh look, my W just did half your health and a burn.. perfect for my adc to follow up and two shot you.
I know this is an old topic. But with the Gold Items, its highly benificial to have them even as a APC support. if you use them right that is. lets take spell thief edge. it gives a tiny bit of mana, Mana regen and 10 gold per poke. when you upgrade it to Frost fang withen the first like 4 minutes of the game, you get 20 gold per poke and CD. But DO NOT upgrade it past Frost fang, utter waste of gold. The gold you get from Frost Fang is well worth buying it if you are an aggressive poker. i usually end a game with 1.5k-2K gold just from poking it and when im on my last item, sell it and get an actual AP item giving me a good 1K gold or more bonus from it.
Tbh, if you are a ADC the fact is that most of the ADC who play that role just suck they can't carry consistently for shit! I'm talking the Elo where I am, Silver..You think I'm gonna play Raka for this shit tier Ezreal player? Who has a 25% WR and avgs 2 cs a min? HELL NO
If I play a lot of the old school supports I am putting my MMR and my chances at climbing in the hands of someone less capable then me, that's partially cause I know they are gonna suck and partially cause the Marksmen role isn't very good this season.
If these ppl actually understood how reliable mages were we would see more APC in the ADC role, because flat out the dmg from things like Swain, Cass, Taliyah (for example) is right there on par with things like Draven/Lucian or higher but ofc with its own set of drawbacks.
The biggest part of being a support is being able to support the team, I do that; I am not the ADC's support, in lane sure i'm his buddy but my goal is to support the map and it's silly that these players who play ADC are such shit that they need their hand held every second, Oh God forbid that I roam and make a play somewhere on the map, or get deep vision in enemy jg! Holy smokes these players are babies! they spam ping me over and over! They push the lane when they SEE ME going to roam and then these idiots die and blame me?!
Yea sorry but most ADCs are not good, they have no idea of what they are doing, they only want to get gold so they can get their 3 items and try and do things but they can't cs they don't know when to freeze the lane at all (most have no idea how to control the wave at all) they have no idea when to push the wave (it's a joke watching them tell me i need to not hit the minions, i laugh cause i know they are just really really bad) and you want me to play Raka or Lulu with these ppl? sry but no absolutely not
If i'm in ranked I'll pick something with CC for sure, with engage, with dmg potential, and with map presence but also things I know that when (not if) my adc starts to feed i'll be able to take over the game and give my team a chance, that's how i support; I am the midlaner 2 .0 in most games, even if mid and adc feed, we still have a chance.
Don't like it? Learn to play better so we don't have to carry u
There is nothing wrong with it. Support isnt a specific subclass of champions, support is simply whoever doesnt get CS or jungle. Thats it. Thats all thats needed to be a support. You dont even need to go bot lane.
Is it really now consider fine to pick an APC to fullfil the support role. At this point, shouldn't it be consider a problem, or riot is just ignoring the issue.
It's pretty annoying to play a real traditionnal support like soraka or lulu and then getting pwn in lane and in overall game by a god damn ap SUPPORT? syndra or cassiopeia.
Edit : or when the other support just build full ap, and is alot more succesful then you with your real support items
Lulu is now a top/mid laner,I get why people don't like it,but that's the way it is,she's not balanced around that role anymore as it made her overbearing elsewhere. Soraka is,aside from being quite obnoxious by design(frankly,syndra is a more healthy support than she is as far as gameplay goes(but ofc nobody cares about that,"MUH SUPPORT TAG")) should obliterate both cassio and syndra as far as the 2v2 matchup is concerned.
You're first of all inventing a problem(mages going bot isn't nessecrily bad,especially when as we can obviously see standard supports(like thresh and janna) are still considered stronger for the most part,x10 for those mages who've been kicked out of mid lane by assassins(zyra/brand/velkoz/etc)),then you are trying to prove it by false claims,soraka will shit on both support syndra and cassio.
Avoid the support items as much as you can. Riot made them to be underpowered because they don't want other lanes and/or roles to buy those items.
The other thing that sucks, which I've seen a lot lately, is people who pick champions like Nidalee, Lux, Zyra, (who could actually be real supports) and take them bot lane as "support", but build no support items. When asked to build something like a sightstone, they go "But I'm APC".
Like, literally. I had one game where a Zyra bot lane was taking cs, building Mejai's, Liandry's, stealing kills from our Twitch, and cried about KS and that her stacks went away when she died. I asked her to build a sightstone, and she goes "Do I look like a support to you? I only play bot lane because there's more kills down here" When in our TB lobby, that's what she queued for. Support. She lost us the game by trying to carry and not being able to.
I'm a support main (Sona ftw), and things like this make me sad. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for diversity, but sacrificing the utility the support role is meant for is not a good trade off.
The same could be said about bringing a cc tank into the botlane, that isn't a traditional tank support. Is my support 
or 
necessarily as good as a 
or 
no, but they shine in other areas.
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1731218572/49620597?tab=overview
Granted, they were trolling harder than the sion support pick.
Ehh I kinda agree. A lot of "support" class champions have shitty AP ratios and their CC is no better than mages. Leblanc is a prime example. She has a shit ton of burst, mobility, snare, and escape. When played correctly it's extremely difficult to counter her with a support partner. Look at Karma. Shit AP ratios, crappy shield, barely has any CC. Why play her when I can do so much more with a mage and pentakill lategame?
Diversity is good, and I don't believe for one second that mages are overpowered in the support role.
Edit : or when the other support just build full ap, and is alot more succesful then you with your real support items
Lol, "real support items". Tell me what it is you think a "real support item" is. AP on caster supports is supportive, and if that's not enough for you, then there are utility/AP items. The damage that most caster supports get from AP is usually negligible or just a secondary bonus (aside from Sona, who actually deals quite a lot of damage with AP). People get AP on the likes of Soraka or Janna for their healing/utility scaling.
If you don't like the fact that your abilities are weak because you're going full AP-less utility or because you're building tanky utility, then start building the stat that increases the power of your abilities. It's really that simple.
i can play annie or velkoz support, because with spellthief's edge, if you're constantly using your stacks you end up getting at least 1k that game farm when your adc isn't in lane, and you get plenty of gold to not only fund your support items, but then your ap or tanky items.
Traditional supports are better at organized play because less ham mistakes are made, and it's easier to yolo a ham mistake with more damage, but if you have an apc instead of a support come late game your carries will die in organized play
neingutenacht12/11/2015, 3:53:30 PMTo me there is 3 types of supports... there defensive, aggressive, and passive. there is a lot you can. for exp.... someone like or 
they can take the damage making them more defense. where 
or
are more aggressive then some other. and passive is like 
now saying passive. would be wrong cause they can be real aggressive.... but it also depends on who your play with and who your VS. now saying this i do like playing aggressive Sona and in late game i will sell my build to change over to a APC but i will only do that at late game or if i have to lane alone and that dues happen time to time. so I will say both work it all depends on the game.
