[Annie] Re-Work

Tew Lil Beans··3 votes·1,170 views

There still isn't much skill involved in playing this fiery little devil child and several things, even if they were to remain easy to use, need to be brought up to speed. I'll list out each and give an explanation as to why I feel this way.

Passive- At 4 stacks, her next ability stuns. Stacks are gained by using abilities. I'll start by saying that this remains one of the few passives that still stack without decay. So many Annie players sit in base and spam W and E to get the 4th stack THEN head into lane. It leaves no time-frame in which Annie's pressure will fall while her stun is up, furthermore she can wait as long as she likes before initiating. (Suggested New) Passive: At 4 stacks, her next ability stuns. Stacks are gained by using (or landing?) abilities and decay after 6/8/10 seconds (lvl 1/6/11) rapidly decaying from 4 to 0 over the next 2 seconds. In this window, Annie must choose to be aggressive and use her stun or be passive and let her stacks fall off. Good Annie players would be able to use an ability within the decay window to keep her stacks up while not using her stun prematurely. I'll circle back to her Q and move on to her W for now.

W- Cone of damage in front of her. Very basic ability with no other use than damage. I'd motion that her W gain the passive of her Q and become her main source of farm, getting more mana back from more targets killed with it, up to 110% (maybe not that much) the cost of the ability after killing 5 targets or more. This would give good Annie players more mana sustain and enemies a better chance at harass and counter-play since she'll be focused on CS. To this point, this new ability would have a slightly longer range than her current W but shorter than her current Q.

Q- High damage, point-and-click ability used for last-hitting (with a mana refund on kill) and easy, long-ranged harass. I'm not sure how this one should change, but with the above ability implemented, it frees this ability up to be something new with potential extra burst, utility, or uniqueness for this champion. I'd love to hear suggestions for this.

E- Circle of flames around her and Tibbers granting Amr, MR, and reflecting some basic attack damage. This has always been more of a throwaway ability in my opinion. Even with the addition of granting Tibbers the extra stats and damage, it's still only used to gain more stacks on her passive with such a low mana cost and such little use. So, I propose giving it a little more utility. When her E is active and Tibbers is out, she and Tibbers should gain a small amount of move-speed while walking towards each other (or instead towards enemies?). This would make it easier for her to escape bad situations (or chasing down enemies) and would require better micro-managing of Tibbers (instead of making him wander through the enemies to deal a bit more damage as you run).

R- Instantly summon Tibbers, dealing massive AOE damage upon summon and dealing AOE damage around Tibbers. This ability offers no room for outplay. Much like Veigar's old stun, it can spell instant doom for anyone who dare's step a bit too close to Annie. As well, much like Veigar's old stun, I believe it should have a short delay with an outline (summoning circle?) of where Tibbers has been cast so that flashing away the split second before he crushes your soul can be achieved. It doesn't have to be as long as Veigar's delay, but it SHOULD be present.

Note: I do not wish to take away Annie's burst, stun, or anything that makes her who she is. I do wish, however, to add more counter-play to her kit and widen the gap between good Annie players and great Annie players.

What do you guys think?

Thanks for reading.

12 Comments

Gunnlaug3 votes

Thank you! I like all these changes and I think it would make her a bit more bearable as a burst mage For her ult, i'd suggest that she needs to throw her bear with like a 0.5 second delay till it actually stuns

shadecrapper2 votes

She's pretty brain dead to play, her burst is really good, and there isnt much counter play other then wards and staying your distance. Maybe change her E or W but the rest as to stay, she really isnt _that good other then she is really easy to play. IDK, maybe make her Q a skill shot like what riot has been doing to every other ability in LOL.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

Guys, I don't like this champion, lets make her worse so I can feel better about it. 8D

Namamall2 votes

To this point, this new ability would have a slightly longer range than her current W but shorter than her current Q.

Annie's current W actually has the same range as her Q. I can completely understand why you would be confused, though. Her W has a horribly unclear animation and her Q will follow people if they move backwards, which may give it the illusion of a longer range.

Sona Ping1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tew Lil Beans,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iReVNepF,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-14T14:37:58.273+0000)

What do you guys think?

First thought is that listing abilities is not ever a good argument.

The problem is that Annie is already a rather poor champion choice as a mage, and has been for a long time. There already is not much reason to pick her over other mage choices; She only brings two things to the table: Ratios and a Stun. Consequently, we only have two choices in regards to Annie: No nerfs; keep her as she is **or ** make her the worst champion pick.

Flay and Pray1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iReVNepF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-14T14:45:43.127+0000)

First thought is that listing abilities is not ever a good argument.

The problem is that Annie is already a rather poor champion choice as a mage, and has been for a long time. There already is not much reason to pick her over other mage choices; She only brings two things to the table: Ratios and a Stun. Consequently, we only have two choices in regards to Annie: No nerfs; keep her as she is **or ** make her the worst champion pick.

Woah hold on there partner, no reason to pick her over any other mage? You must be joking! Annie has seen extensive play at every elo and in the competitive scene simply because of how good a mage she is. On top of her amazing sustain in lane, massive poke, huge burst, low cooldown, and massive AOE stun, she is also stupidly tanky. She already has tremendous base stats and her Molten Shield gives her 50 armor and magic resist on top of a free thornmail passive. if anything, she definitely needs nerfs considering she outshines multiple supports bot lane, and most mid laners mid.

Sona Ping1 votes

Annie does not need to be nerfed. In all actuality, Annie is not even that good a pick. She has a simple kit, she's immobile, and leaves things to be desired in both both utility and the wave clear that is so important for mid-lane. She has no way to boost her trading potential nor any real ability to make outplays. All Annie has is decent AP ratios and her stun. And That's it! This is also the reason why Annie is so binary in her results, in the bad way. If she doesn't get fed/farmed over her head she becomes all but completely useless; one of your champion picks gets reduced to a stun bot for the rest of the match. It's why in higher levels of play she is considered to not even be a viable midlane pick and only sees play as a support.

The main reason Annie is tanky (she's not that tanky) is because people build RoA on her, which I remind you can be bought by any mage. Most everything else you listed can be performed by most any champ and, considering Xerath, he has all that, with the missing mana sustain but also better than Annie. Other mages further bring other benefits such as zone control, wave clear, and of course, range.

The stun as it is and the potential for it to be AoE is the only thing that keeps Annie worth picking as something other than a beginner mage (because they can CS with Q's instead of AAs). Nerf those, and there is no reason to pick any instead of anyone else.

Flay and Pray1 votes

The main reason Annie is tanky (she's not that tanky) is because people build RoA on her, which I remind you can be bought by any mage. Most everything else you listed can be performed by most any champ and, considering Xerath, he has all that, with the missing mana sustain but also better than Annie. Other mages further bring other benefits such as zone control, wave clear, and of course, range.

The stun as it is and the potential for it to be AoE is the only thing that keeps Annie worth picking as something other than a beginner mage (because they can CS with Q's instead of AAs). Nerf those, and there is no reason to pick any instead of anyone else.

Are you simply going to ignore the fact that her Molten Shield gives her 50 armor and magic resist and a free Thornmail passive for 5 seconds? Thats insane, especially on a burst mage like Annie. She provides more Zone Control than most other mid laners due to the constant threat of her passive. Not to mention, she is much more reliable than the likes of Xerath as its nearly impossible to miss any abilities as her. Yes, she lacks range but he makes up for it with the ability to obliterate a team with her ult, low cooldowns, and amazing tankiness with E. Shes also amazing at every phase of the game, so yes there is room for changes without gutting her. if anything her E is the thing that needs nerfs, everything else is remotely fine compared to that.

Sona Ping1 votes

Wasn't my intention; one just typically ignores things of little consequence because they are not pertinent to the discussion. That's only sensible.

And you have the E wrong, it doesn't give that much AR/MR. It gives just 10 Armor and Magic Resist. After about 2/3's the way through a rather long game, then it starts have more than that. At level 18, she gets that 50 armor, where at the late in the game an Ohmwrecker's worth of defense doesn't count for much against that Rengar. And as we all know, despite what the tutorial said, Thornmail is not a good pick on Ashe or anyone else who builds damage because Thornmail is only good when you have additional defensive stats to back it up.

Yes, she lacks range but he makes up for it with the ability to obliterate a team with her ult....

This isn't accurate. See, you are doing that thing where people remember that one game where a player went 8/1 and think it has something to do with the champion and not that they are 8/1. Meanwhile other champions do more damage when they get that fed and have better utility if they don't.

I'm not saying that Annie is terrble now. I'm saying that she would be if she got nerfed like G&B threads keep going on about which is especially stupid when other champions do what she does with more options while even burstier.

Flay and Pray1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iReVNepF,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-15T23:40:02.298+0000)

Wasn't my intention; one just typically ignores things of little consequence because they are not pertinent to the discussion. That's only sensible.

And you have the E wrong, it doesn't give that much AR/MR. It gives just 10 Armor and Magic Resist. After about 2/3's the way through a rather long game, then it starts have more than that. At level 18, she gets that 50 armor, where at the late in the game an Ohmwrecker's worth of defense doesn't count for much against that Rengar. And as we all know, despite what the tutorial said, Thornmail is not a good pick on Ashe or anyone else who builds damage because Thornmail is only good when you have additional defensive stats to back it up.

This isn't accurate. See, you are doing that thing where people remember that one game where a player went 8/1 and think it has something to do with the champion and not that they are 8/1. Meanwhile other champions do more damage when they get that fed and have better utility if they don't.

I'm not saying that Annie is terrble now. I'm saying that she would be if she got nerfed like G&B threads keep going on about which is especially stupid when other champions do what she does with more options while even burstier.

I don't understand your logic behind this, I have played against Annies hundreds of times mind you and am currently Plat. Annie outshines any other mage IN HER FIELD. Yes, Xerath may have more range or maybe another champion has more mobility, but they can't provide what she does. Annies amount of burst and sustain is fine, but not when it is as reliable as it is. Just having her stun up prevents any type of engage from the enemy Team due to her ults instant cast. As for the 50 armor and magic resist being nothing, you have to be joking. Yes, 50 armor will not prevent you from being killed by a rengar, but it delays your death long enough to get a full rotation of spells in, enough to KILL the rengar. Your taking thornmail out of context as well, the item obviously isn't as good on a squishy, but since annies E also gives her that huge amount of stats on her already amazing base stats it just provides her more unnecessary damage. So yes, the Molten Shield pertains to this conversation 100% considering it's my main point, don't see how you missed it that badly.

She has no way to boost her trading potential nor any real ability to make outplays.

Thats weird, I remember her having the second longest basic attack range in the game, and a shield that helps her win trades and damage the enemies for trading back. As for no way to outplay people, that's what her stun is for. A good Annie keeps track of her passive and times it to cancel enemy abilities then burst them down. She still sees extensive play at high elo, and if you look on champion.gg most people diamond and above play her mid lane.

Annie could easily take some nerfs without being "useless" as you put it. She would still he played extensively due to her unmatched reliability and AOE stun/burst. But sure, go ahead. Name one champion that outshines Annie in her category.

Sona Ping1 votes

{quoted} Annie outshines any other mage IN HER FIELD...Name one champion that outshines Annie in her category.

And pray tell, what is "her field"? You neglected to say that. I will refrain from answering your question because I have the feeling no matter how many Mages I write, you are going to answer to answer that they don't have a targeted Stun and don't belong to her field. Well, that's my point, in a roundabout way. If Riot nerfs Annie in the way the G&B qq wants, then Annie and that field she is in (which looks to consist of just her) have no reason to be chosen over the other fields that bring intra-field strengths as well as their own strengths which are better than Annie, being burstier, more CC abilties, more waveclear, and can actually initiate with out burning a Summoner Spell.

considering it's my main point, don't see how you missed it that badly.

Because in your first post, which the reply to which is what we are talking about, you did not present it as your main point. You didn't even present it as a secondary point. It was your seventh item; it wouldn't be a surprise for anyone not to think that it was your "main point".

Since you said this is your main point, I will treat it as such. "Molten Shield gives Annie 'amazing tankiness'"

The reason why I say this is because game experience and Math. I have never heard anyone claim that a champion was tanky, much less amazingly tanky, from only having a Chain Vest, and certainly not when that is their only item 30-40 minutes into the game.
Champions who are tanky and Champions who have a build that are tanky have hundreds of points of resistances from multiple items and many times their base stats in effective health. That's not the case from Molten Shield with only 10-50 points of resistance, only offering the resistance of a single, unfinished item.

Nor in-game have I ever seen a champion react as if they were tanky from that little defensive stats. I was just pulling a name of the hat with Rengar, but since you used him as well, I'll keep on with him as an example (and do you the favour of not dwelling on the fact that once again, you are assuming a specific scenario, a specific game where Annie is so massively fed that she can kill Rengar with just a single Q and W, and maybe like 80 damage from E.)

Rengar usually buys a Brutalizer early. With that item alone, Molten Shield's resistance is negated for the majority of the game. But you are not talking about that, you are talking about the 50 resistance so we will look at that now. At level 18, has 87.2 Armor from base stats and gains 50 armor from Molten Shield. And we suppose Rengar has two of his frequent items, Youmu's Ghostblade and Last Whisper. Calculating Annie's Armor, from only factoring in Last Whisper we see that Annie's Armor goes down to 89.18 for damage calculation. That's is not even 2 points of armor above her base stats! With Youmu's, her armor goes down to a measly 69.18 points. This is with only two items at that late in the game! We're not even considering that he may have a Warrior Enchantment or the common Armor Pen. Runes at this point. The conclusion is that your main point is mathematically false.

Flay and Pray1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iReVNepF,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-16T22:37:36.174+0000)

And pray tell, what is "her field"? You neglected to say that. I will refrain from answering your question because I have the feeling no matter how many Mages I write, you are going to answer to answer that they don't have a targeted Stun and don't belong to her field. Well, that's my point, in a roundabout way. If Riot nerfs Annie in the way the G&B qq wants, then Annie and that field she is in (which looks to consist of just her) have no reason to be chosen over the other fields that bring intra-field strengths as well as their own strengths which are better than Annie, being burstier, more CC abilties, more waveclear, and can actually initiate with out burning a Summoner Spell.

Because in your first post, which the reply to which is what we are talking about, you did not present it as your main point. You didn't even present it as a secondary point. It was your seventh item; it wouldn't be a surprise for anyone not to think that it was your "main point".

Since you said this is your main point, I will treat it as such. "Molten Shield gives Annie 'amazing tankiness'"

The reason why I say this is because game experience and Math. I have never heard anyone claim that a champion was tanky, much less amazingly tanky, from only having a Chain Vest, and certainly not when that is their only item 30-40 minutes into the game.
Champions who are tanky and Champions who have a build that are tanky have hundreds of points of resistances from multiple items and many times their base stats in effective health. That's not the case from Molten Shield with only 10-50 points of resistance, only offering the resistance of a single, unfinished item.

Nor in-game have I ever seen a champion react as if they were tanky from that little defensive stats. I was just pulling a name of the hat with Rengar, but since you used him as well, I'll keep on with him as an example (and do you the favour of not dwelling on the fact that once again, you are assuming a specific scenario, a specific game where Annie is so massively fed that she can kill Rengar with just a single Q and W, and maybe like 80 damage from E.)

Rengar usually buys a Brutalizer early. With that item alone, Molten Shield's resistance is negated for the majority of the game. But you are not talking about that, you are talking about the 50 resistance so we will look at that now. At level 18, has 87.2 Armor from base stats and gains 50 armor from Molten Shield. And we suppose Rengar has two of his frequent items, Youmu's Ghostblade and Last Whisper. Calculating Annie's Armor, from only factoring in Last Whisper we see that Annie's Armor goes down to 89.18 for damage calculation. That's is not even 2 points of armor above her base stats! With Youmu's, her armor goes down to a measly 69.18 points. This is with only two items at that late in the game! We're not even considering that he may have a Warrior Enchantment or the common Armor Pen. Runes at this point. The conclusion is that your main point is mathematically false.

Your acting as if Annie can do absolutely nothing in this scenario which is sadly false. Her Molten Shield prevents a lot of the damage that would be inflicted upon her, while not enough to save her every time it's much more than any other mage is given. Annie is able to stun rengar given any opportunity and burst him, or escape from there. Those extra base stats may only give her an extra 3 seconds, but that's a long enough time to easily burst a Rengar down. You factored rengars items in, but you didn't factor in Annies ROA and Zhonyas? Sorry bud but you didn't complete your calculations. Even if that armor won't "save her" completely, it's a hell of a lot bigger change than any other mage.

As for her "field" this is where she excells in a strange way. She could be classified as a burst mage but is primarily played for her engage. She basically does Veigar job better. If you want to compare her to a very similar champion take Viktor. He may have around the same damage, and zone control, but more range. How does Annie make up for this? With her engage of course! She offers things other burst mages can't offer. Im not saying take that away from her, I'm saying take away some of its reliability and buff it's range for compensation, this would give people a reason to play champions like Veigar and Syndra again.

Anyway, that's the end of my rant. This conversation has gone on for way too long. Wish you the best of days.

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