Talon's Silence Removal

húsk·10/21/2014, 5:18:14 AM·9 votes·2,532 views

Dear Riot,

I've mained talon since he first came out back in Season 2 and I have to say the argument for removing Silence on Cutthroat (E) is understandable regarding counterplay. It's not fun not being able to react to certain abilities, but please see many other burst based champions who also sport a slew of stuns, silences, roots, or suppress. It seems odd you would focus Talon's Silence over say mobility, damage output, or invisibility.

Mobility creep is a well known powerful stat that makes fighting against, for instance, a ward-hopping Lee Sin or Riven sometimes frustrating. If Damage was the concern you could have shifted ratios, or gated damage behind certain conditions.

However, simply removing the Silence and replacing it with a .25 second slow which I already have on Rake (W) does not do Talon's kit justice. It feels very contrived and rushed with little planning put in as to larger kit mechanics and the flow of abilities. Sure I can proc my mercy auto-attack, but this feels almost trivial in the larger picture of talon's kit unless I am working on crit, which is still RNG and not always built until late game.

I propose that instead of removing silence, you could have gated the silence behind a meaningful decision and trade off risk and reward--which is what has always made Talon so eminently (and imminently) fun to play.

For example: Talon could have used Cutthroat (E) on an opponent and had to build up minor bleed stacks or stay within a certain range for a given length of time before a Silence could proc. Moreover the Silence could have been reduced to .25 and scale up .5, .7, 1.0 seconds.

OR, my favorite, you could have simply reduced the range of Cutthroat itself to easily put talon within a targetable distance of enemies and allow very viable counterplay. And you could have even paired this with for instance a reduction in base MS from 350 to 325 to make it even MORE difficult for Talon so he'd have to choose very carefully when to engage an opponent.

Now I am not a game designer, I work as a proposal writer, but these are just some of my thoughts regarding Talon and a few of the ways I think Riot's vastly creative game designer's could have approached Cutthroat (E) and the issue of counterplay.

Please reconsider Talon's Silence, the issue of counterplay, and his kit as a whole once more.

Thank you,

Hunger

18 Comments

mightycanada10/21/2014, 9:50:51 PM3 votes

The biggest issue I have with the current talon state is the fact that the silence removal makes nearly all of talon's lane matchups a living hell. Remember, with the new cutthroat, talon TELEGRAPHS where he will be with no safety net like the silence use to give him. This gives talon a big HIT ME IM HERE sign on talon to anyone who has a brain. This makes it very hard to lane vs brands, anivia's, heimerdingers and any mid lane mage with a form of cc (aka nearly every single one). Not only that, but it also makes it suicidal for talon to lane vs a fizz, leblanc, malzahar, and diana because they all either have methods of avoiding your damage, or just flat out killing you the moment you jump in. Talon's silence was so core to his kit, that it was like removing zed's ability to swap shadows, or removing katarina's ability to get resets. However, since the silence was unbalanced from a gameplay perspective, let us see what other solutions riot could have done other than giving talon a pitiful .25 slow.

First solution: Giving talon a spellshield that lasts for 1 second. It solves most of the issues with his inability to lane in certain matchups now, but still gives some form of counterplay (aka summoners, rapid spell casting before using your actual cc etc). However, it does not really fit in with the ablilty "cutthroat" now.

Second solution: Adjust talon's numbers so that his laning phase isn't so BAD. Remember, talon is not akali or katarina. His level 6 does not give him the ability to absolutely murder everything on the map. So why is talon's early laning phase being treated like so? Riot can do numerous things here like lowering the mana costs on his rake, or lowering cd's on his kit, or making it so that he has slightly more damage early game, and less later on. And before you guys qq about talon being op, realize that talon gets out traded by nearly every other mid laner on the field due to his cd's and his low early game damage.

Third solution: Lowering the silence duration. This is also another possibility I like looking into. Although you won't be silenced by the time the w is going back to the talon, it still allows talon to have some safety in doing his combo. Also the ability to interrupt channels is nice.

Fourth solution: Not removing talons silence, but rather, nerfing other aspects of his kit. Remember, what made talon "op" was not his inability to counter his burst, but rather, his ult cd and his ability to roam to bot lane every 50 seconds and pick up a double kill. That, and the fact that the current talon build allows you to q crit for 1500 damage with near full armor pen. Making talon's q not able to crit, or nerfing his ult cd to be similar to other mid laners is a better nerf imo.

Also, lastly, riot needs to give talon the ability to interrupt channels with his cutthroat. Every other assassin who had a silence still has this ability. Why did riot remove this ability on talon, I have no idea but it is a very missed ability.

48983507DEL110/21/2014, 2:56:19 PM2 votes

I personally think they should replace the silence with a short snare to prevent spells like Flashsummoner 4, Arcane ShiftEzreal, ShunpoKatarina, Living Shadow/Death MarkZed, and Rocket JumpTristana from being used to escape or react to Talon, while still being able to use abilities to provide counterplay against him like Frozen TombLissandra, Intervention,Kayle and Pryromania procsAnnie. It would still allow for counterplay, but would give Talon some counterplay as well.

Kingsgrave10/21/2014, 8:09:07 PM2 votes

Talon silences you, gets on top of you and amps damage against you.

Not only does he do good single target damage (Q), he does DoT (Q after effect) and massive AoE (W and R)

so most of his shit is unavoidable, can be cast within 1 second if skilled, and pretty much decimates you. They just added a way for people to actually react to it. Why do you think his winrate actually went up in higher elo? They were able to better abuse the 1 second of silence.

wolfax10/21/2014, 2:48:47 PM1 votes

but please see many other burst based champions who also sport a slew of stuns, silences, roots, or suppress. It seems odd you would focus Talon's Silence over say mobility, damage output, or invisibility.

Silence is the issue because it removes all counterplay. Talon is one of those champions that can blow you up before the silence ends, and what can you do? No items, no summoner spells, no abilities... You can right click and maybe get one attack off, or sit their, cross your fingers and hope he somehow doesn't have enough damage to kill you.

This is the same reason why assassins have all had their disabling CCs pulled. LeBlanc's and Kassadin's silence have already been done away with. Talon's change is very consistent with the general move of assassins.

ViktoriousSecret10/22/2014, 12:58:45 AM1 votes

Should just give his E some interesting mechanic based on what he specializes in. When I play Talon I build full armor pen, which in turn usually ends up with my building youmuu's. Give Talon a crit buildpath, his E now applies Marked, auto-attacks against that target have an increased 10%/15%/20%/25% crit chance.

húsk10/21/2014, 5:25:48 AM1 votes

bump

Llanite10/22/2014, 1:35:01 AM1 votes

CT is OP due to having no counterplay. Annie/FIdd/Taric, for instance, the moment you see that flying fireball, you could dash away and they would have to walk a mile (at which the stun should have been over).

You can't do a crap with talon E. The moment you see him, you are silence, eat tad load of AA and he's gone before you can retaliate.

Boulderox10/21/2014, 5:39:36 AM1 votes

I feel talon got gutted because of the popularity of silence mid champs back early-mid s4. Riot finally said theu wanted to wees out silence. Yet supports have it Soraka a jungler has a multi hit oneFiddlesticks. And Garen top.too. yet mid is toxic? Idk why they do this and openly keep others. I like talon, haven't played him well enough. But what I notice is many "op" assassin has a 2 dashes of some.form. meaning they have lots of.follow up if one fails. Yet talon.has.one.and.is his.bread and butter. Without that silence he is less of a threat imo. He is a rare champ, that is spoiler because of the bad apples in mid lane.

JustMyBassCannon10/21/2014, 6:00:09 AM1 votes

I've mained talon since he first came out back in Season 2 and I have to say the argument for removing Silence on Cutthroat (E) is understandable regarding counterplay. It's not fun not being able to react to certain abilities, but please see many other burst based champions who also sport a slew of stuns, silences, roots, or suppress. It seems odd you would focus Talon's Silence over say mobility, damage output, or invisibility.

Would you mind naming examples?

Because the problem here is a little more specific than having CC and burst. Otherwise, the vast majority of the Mage archetype would be at fault, as well as some tanks.

The problem in Talon's case is unavoidable CC that lasts longer than a burst rotation.

Cutthroat is instant and target-able from a 700 range. Not only is that matching the longest range for a targeted, non-ultimate blink/dash, but it also exceeds the range of any target-able, hard CC spells. As well as Exhaust. This meant you either risked a skill shot CC that he could avoid with the dash, or just sit there and watch him nuke you. His burst rotation is actually one of the fastest for an assassin, it's not difficult to blow all of your spells within 1 second--the length of his Silence.

So, basically put, if Talon wanted to burst someone, he was pretty much guaranteed to get his full rotation on them and walk away through ulti stealth, whether or not he killed them. Yes, there are a couple things such as an ally interrupting his combo or a pink ward negating his stealth, but that's the base of the premise, whether or not it works in 100% of situations, so please don't tell me I overlooked them just because I gave the rule of thumb instead of the rule of everything. Just stating that because I know someone will be anal enough to bother me about it