Question about Karma - For the players, not Riot

qetzel·5/15/2015, 10:59:32 PM·6 votes·1,397 views

So, one of the things - certainly not the only thing - I am seeing in the discussions about the Karma rework is that these changes mean she loses out on damage.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but does she really? If you are in a situation with Karma where you need damage, don't you mantra-Q? If you need to duel somebody, don't you mantra-W? If you need to engage or disengage, don't you mantra-E?

There are, of course, some exceptions to this pattern, notably E waveclear (which I never saw a Karma do but I will trust the people who say it is good).

My point is; did the damage from E or W really make a difference? Would it not be better for Karma in any lane to give her more utility when she wants utility, keeping the highest damage spell damaging highly?

I would appreciate our thoughts on this matter.

46 Comments

warpenguin5555/16/2015, 12:53:40 AM5 votes

oh i just ult Q everything XD

Muchashca5/16/2015, 4:41:26 PM4 votes

There were two major nerfs to her RW and RE, but fortunately the RW nerf has been fixed. It deals less damage than before, but that's made up for with the extended snare.

RE was used for two primary reasons: To speed clear a wave of minions while pushing. To shield your team during a teamfight and deal damage to the other team. Because her Passive lowers her Ultimate cooldown by spell hit, this was a very effective way to instantly shave 8-10 seconds from your ult, thereby being able to use it twice in a single teamfight. The shield for your team was secondary. The current changes replace that ability with a higher aoe shield scaling, which will be nice, but it's not the part that most Karma players ever cared about.

Sire Hippington5/15/2015, 11:05:59 PM4 votes

the damage reomve on W takes away alot from dueling, and you used the E in especially for growded fights with 3+members of your team in close combat with 3+ of them, make great use of both aoe shield and damage. Also, they really coulld rename her now, the 'exploding' shield was prettymuch the only link to old karma that was left, now they really share nothing at all(besides press r to boost standart skill, but even there she lost a stack...) Also, her Q is easily blocked by a frontline/minions, so if you want to make sure your damage reaches the right target, W and E are both superior to Q. Ult Q is mostly for poke or longrange followup on something like a morgana cage.

Vistha Kai5/15/2015, 11:43:47 PM3 votes

It's not even about damage on RW or RE. Karma's signature moves were the shield bomb and Mantra empowering basic abilities. Riot guts those again, for some reason.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but does she really? If you are in a situation with Karma where you need damage, don't you mantra-Q?

You do.

If you need to duel somebody, don't you mantra-W?

On live - yes. ~~On PBE - it doesn't heal anymore, if you can't survive long enough to finish W channel then what's the point of using it? Just RQ.~~ Seems that part got reverted to live.

If you need to engage or disengage, don't you mantra-E?

You do. Except RQ can be used in the same way or even better. On live you can also use RE in the middle of the teamfight to proc passive and empower your frontline. You don't get passive proc on PBE basically making Karma Mantra once in the teamfight. Which completely sucks for her.

Drakzul the Dark5/15/2015, 11:05:33 PM3 votes

R-E = Teamfights (All-ins) R-Q = Poke/Skirmishes R-W = Dueling or getting caught in teamfights

Her R-Q definitely does the most damage regardless, but her R-E can do just as much damage with a hard engage.

Sohleks5/16/2015, 4:59:08 PM3 votes

Currently her mantra W does comparable dmg to mantra Q (the same even lvl 1-5)

That is being removed.

Although I guess W ap ratio going 60% -> 90% is supposed to be compensation. Considering the other buffs this seems ok. Only having one mantra choice for dmg seems a bit stale though.

Hupsis5/15/2015, 11:11:10 PM3 votes

I honestly have been thinking the same. Why do some players think she's losing damage even though she's not?

Well yeah if you want to heal while dealing a lot of damage or shield while dealing damage it's a slight hit. But she's still able to deal huge damage with mantra Q.

Mantra spells never felt that different from each other cause they were basically always dealing damage and then giving something on top of that. Now that the damage is gone, mantra W and E (with their changes) can feel unique enough from mantra Q.

Cindikle5/16/2015, 8:50:25 PM2 votes

The last bit of changes they posted may make it OK.

W's base scaling is increased to make up for the loss of RW. RW roots longer. Which can make a strong difference in a gank or teamfight. More than an RQ. It'll also be longer than Morg's Q.

Before using RW for the heal with the new changes was a huge downgrade for solo lane Karma because the heal will be weaker without teammates and you don't gain the bonus damage.

Loss of RE weakens her waveclear. There are ways around this, but her RE's radius was similiar to Ziggs ultimate. Sure it didn't do the same damage, but if you got 2+ waves at a tower. You could clear it fairly well. This was situational, but really impaction when it mattered.

The biggest hit was the change to W. While RQ is the go to damage option for Karma, RW was still an often used combo. Every bit of damage matters.

The loss of that RW is easily made up for by higher W scaling without needing R.

She still loses a good bit of her lane sustain from RW. It's much easier to counter it now. And the instant 20% missing HP made for some nice baits. The extra utility should easily make up for it as a solo lane Karma while giving support Karma a nice buff.

Jungle Karma should be a buff now. But I could be wrong.

Rico Nasty5/16/2015, 12:13:17 AM2 votes

From a Karma main (I don't have a great winrate with her in ranked stfu i don't do good in ranked), Riot just trashed her laning. They're trying to shove her into botlane, which also is confusing cause now they made her a viable jungler. She isn't as offensive as before, they're really really trying to force her utility. Idk. I am not happy with these at all. I think I'm moving onto Ahri, at least they didn't gut/won't gut her.

Erockandroll5/15/2015, 11:29:35 PM1 votes

I'm looking at the most recent iteration of the Karma changes, (Which seem to replace the old changes)

It looks like they decided to back on the debuff on her ult W. It actually look like their hitting that area particular. They removed the change to the healing component. It says it no longer does damage but has a longer root. I don't know if they mean bonus damage, it would be awkward if her Ult W did no damage where her regular w does.

most of the other changes remained the same. Though if their trying different iterations, it may be a while before they find a karma they like.