What do these Karma changes accomplish?

Luninareph·5/28/2015, 1:38:03 AM·122 votes·9,399 views

So, we took a short-to-mid-ranged APC with complicated support capabilities. We then turned her into a mid-to-long-ranged poke mage with an ADC passive, a Q people could walk out of, a W directly lifted from Leblanc but made point-and-click for almost insultingly simplistic activation, and an E that did approximately her entire previous kit in one spell plus a little extra yet still managed to feel worse than any one of those previous abilities.

Now we have removed approximately a third of her damage capacity, poured even more emphasis into her ill-fitting passive, buffed her copy-pasted and conceptually facile support abilities, and, incidentally, destroyed the shield-bomb as a final iron spike to the hearts of those of us who used to revel in that very tactic.

The stated reasoning behind this is that Riot is "trying giving her access to an end game fantasy... and feel we can do it through her more distinctive powers."

This is not Karma's fantasy and it is not Karma's "distinctive powers." Putting power into W--an ability blatantly ripped off of Leblanc--puts the axe to that right away, to say nothing of the abolishing of her most distinctive ability: the shield-bomb. I have been saying since the Karma rework first came out that new-E was an ability that did too much, and it needed to be simplified. And here I can't even feel victory in my accuracy with this statement because the decision--the method of actualizing this simple truth--was to REMOVE what made it special and leave it completely, mind-numbingly generic.

An AOE shield that makes you run faster. Whoopee.

Karma HAD a fantasy. Karma was about duality. She was about choices. She was about complexity and subtlety. She was about intertwining combat with salvation. Karma's old abilities added offense to defense and defense to offense, with a balance between the two, yet a nuance of difference that provided uniqueness and decision.

Do I want Karma reverted to old Karma? NO. Old Karma NEEDED fixing. She NEEDED a rework. Do you know what she didn't need? Whitewashing. She didn't need to be dumbed down to Mage Champion 101. Do I want changes to new Karma? YES. Do you know what I don't want? To see her pared down EVEN MORE until all that is left is Support Champion 101. Do you know what these changes are doing? Do you want to take a guess?

Karma's abilities have a lot of words and numbers associated with them. Do you know what they ALL boil down to? Point cursor at champion. Click. That is IT. And if you dare to say "that's what all abilities are," then forgive my harshness, but you are a fool. Karma's old W was best utilized on what was NOT her target. Her old E could sometimes be best aimed at MINIONS. Janna's whirlwind, Leona's shield, ALL of Lulu's spells, Sejuani's dash, Ahri's orb--ALL of these are abilities that have depth, application, complexity. Karma has been boiled down to so little it's amazing she can still function at all. There is no fantasy here. The meat of her gameplay was stripped away and left behind only a faint mist of ultimately inconsequential patterns, and now even that is being blown off and away.

Do you want to give Karma a fantasy, Riot? Do you want to make her distinctive? How about we go back to what she was SUPPOSED to be in the first place: a short-to-mid-ranged APC with complicated support capabilities? To that fantasy that gathered a cadre of devoted fans when Karma was so broken that to even CHOOSE her in team selection was to invite ridicule and leavers? THAT was a fantasy with power, Riot. Do you really want to fix Karma? Throw out this milquetoast reboot that has sunk into anonymity and make a Karma with fire and depth, who has abilities of her own, not souped-up leftovers from other champions' kits. Make her Lissandra. Make her Lulu. Make her Nami, Janna, Orianna. But for the love of god, don't make her EVEN LESS than her distasteful, disheartening, disappointing rework already did.

136 Comments

Xyirx5/28/2015, 3:46:05 AM78 votes

Here was the video I recorded with old Karma. She was 100x more fun to play back then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFKft1wSuig

Riot really missed the mark.

Karma's theme was supposed to be "duality".

Old Karma had that holistically. Q - AoE damage VS heal W - AoE slow VS haste E - AoE damage VS shield (damage mitigation)

Her duality theme was strong and it fits her quote perfectly.

Now look what she has. Q - AoE damage....and....more damage? W - Snare and....longer snare? What? E - Shield and....thicker shield?

I don't understand Riot.

Heckin Support5/28/2015, 2:24:54 AM39 votes

"We like diversity, but only if we approve" ~Riot

lDontLiftIcarry5/28/2015, 2:59:46 AM26 votes

riot has ruined karma. I really miss old karma I loved that kit so much. She was my most played AP carry in the game until her rework. Then I switched back to katarina/leblanc as my APC's

I still to this day refuse to play karma actively.

DGWolffumbra5/28/2015, 3:50:14 AM18 votes

So I wrote a post on the original changes on PBE ("Why the PBE Changes Suck, From a 1k+ Karma Main"), so I might as well comment on the final edition.

Having seen and played the old and new Karma, I actually liked the rework, although I know this isn't the most popular decision. I don't think she's milquetoast or copypasta at all. People loved her old passive because it made her dangerous when she was low on health...except the health gain from her old Q was rarely enough to justify the risk, whereas the RW heal ENCOURAGES smart engagement when Karma is low. It's why I was so pissed that the heal was removed on the PBE until they put it back.

You talk about how her W is a copy of LeBlanc's, except somehow dumbed down since it's point and click. However, Karma's tether doesn't slow and has a smallish range, which makes it require the most thought of all of her abilities. Never mind that almost all of Karma's damage is a skill shot or that the slow from Q is required to complete W's channel on more mobile champs.

With that being said, why the fuck would they remove the RE shield bomb? It was something KEPT during the rework BECAUSE it was iconic to her. If anything, just make the damage from it proc 1/2 the passive if that's their main concern.

The root on RW is odd. I mean, it's moving damage away from non-Q, but you use RW in lane to recover health and deceive the enemy. I don't know whether it'll be a net gain or loss in lane power. Yes, you lose a big chunk of damage when baiting the enemy with RW, but you also potentially get an extra Q during the root and you make it an INCREDIBLY stupid idea for the enemy to turret dive now. I really don't know how to feel about it.

TL;DR: I can't write short posts and I need help.

Healurownbum5/28/2015, 5:50:05 AM13 votes

I'm just happy she is even further removed from Old Karma losing the shield bomb. I am sorry for those who still loved it. But this Karma isnt the champion i fell in love with. So her being further and further being removed from the champion i love the better i do not need a reminder of what i lost. Just hope the new player base can still love her. Changes to support and solo do seem to be stronger overall tho.

Now if only her name would change that would really make my day. But i doubt that will ever happen...

Beddlam5/28/2015, 4:04:40 AM11 votes

Not a Karma player, but I don't get how they can gut her damage and then claim that they aren't trying to push her toward the bottom lane. On top of that they removed her coolest ability. Removing the damage on empowered E and bonus damage on empowered W means she will have to empower Q and is seems like it will give her a very predictable and kind of boring play pattern: E and W, if you get the snare, empowered Q, if not, back off.

Mahou Lulu5/28/2015, 5:07:32 AM10 votes

It's so saddening to see what Karma has become. I hate her loss of duality and balance of offense/defense, I hate the loss of her shield bomb, I hated the loss of her fans and lady-like dress back during the initial revamp, and I utterly despise Riot's pushing for support Karma.

SpaghettiTime5/28/2015, 5:04:38 AM10 votes

They forgot they hadn't pissed off karma players for a while, had to fix it. Next, stealth delete Yorick so they don't have to answer skin quetions about him. Maybe Zac to while they're at it.

Yorukin5/28/2015, 4:25:13 AM8 votes

Think of the changes this way: all three Mantra'd abilities used to just provide bonus damage and a situational secondary effect. Now, the strengths of each ability are actively reinforced through the Mantra: RQ provides big AoE damage, RW patches Karma up and holds her target still for a LONG time, and RE keeps her team alive and mobile. (seriously, don't underestimate the power of what is essentially an AP scaling item 3190item 3069 active combo built into her kit)

Admittedly, I am going to miss the shield bomb, but perhaps we will see something like that in the future. In the meantime, you could always play a tank support and use item 3401 on someone.

As for her overall damage output though, I think it has a chance to actually go up in the long run. Even support Karma still builds a decent amount of AP, and a 0.9 AP ratio on a shortish CD single-target ability is always strong.

Snowhart5/28/2015, 4:43:52 AM7 votes

It broke my heart reading patch notes on karma... I'm in a state of denial.item 3070

Ariel the Cruel5/28/2015, 4:43:23 PM5 votes

Riot: "We decided Karma was unbalanceable and have reworked her instead."

Deletes Karma. Replaces her with Skarma.

"We understand her old fan base isn't happy with the rework. Don't worry, we'll make some changes and get it right."

Spends the next 6 or so patches buffing and modifying her kit.

"Well at this point, we don't want to alienate her new fans. And now that she's viable, we're just going wash to our hands of her and call it a day."

Does other champ reworks.

"We learned a lot from, the Karma rework. And we've made efforts to ensure all reworked champs keep their identity and play style."

mini-reworks Karma again.

"We felt Karma wasn't achieving her fantasy and her abilities needed to be better defined."


So... I'm beginning to notice a pattern here. Can we finally close Karma's coffin and give this replacement a more appropriate name?

Maybe . . . "The dedicated test subject for experimental rework concepts." Or. . . "FtheFANbase" or maybe. . . "We're actually still bitter because Morello hated her kit from the beginning, She wiped the floor with Phreak, and she almost became a pro pick before the deletion rework".

A Miss Fortune5/28/2015, 11:03:54 AM4 votes

From playing Karma on free week I did really well and she was VERY fun to play, the only reason I didn't buy her because these updates seemed like they were just nerfing her Mid Lane role (Where she is DESIGNED TO BE) and buffing her Support role.

SociopathFriend5/28/2015, 4:59:19 AM4 votes

I only played Karma off and on sometimes mid and sometimes support; and probably the reason I liked Karma mid when I did play her there was because I had to actually make a choice- mantra Q for damage or W to heal and root. THAT IS RARE AS HELL. So help me, I don't know another champion I regularly use that I actually have to think about which ability I want to use. Ahri Q Blitzcrank Q Brand W Caitlyn Q Darius Q Ezreal Q Gangplank Q Lux E Malzahar E Mordekaiser E Sivir Q Velkoz W Vladimir Q Warwick Q That's one thing I really liked about Karma Blast them with Q or use the W to heal up? Nami Do I want to be buffing my adc with the E for more damage? Using W to harass and heal? Q for getting that damage out? Fiddlesticks Do I want to CC the enemy for a long time? Or do I want to stand there and dare them to fight me with drain? The possibility for multiple playstyles and ways of using the champion. In a game where champions are borderline penalized for trying something different, I enjoyed the duality of being able to use a champion in other ways.

Luner Hunter5/28/2015, 6:52:37 PM4 votes

well damn... they've Sona'd another champion... and back then sona mains were told to suck it up "because now shes better" by everyone else but we all know that it was because what rito though about a "mage support" going MAGE and not support... so now its karma's turn to feel the rito-hate :|

jmonster1295/28/2015, 5:07:06 AM3 votes

You're complaining about something that has already been addressed long ago, you're mainly complaining about how the changes take away from OG karma, we're already discussed how were disappointed to see her go, but what was worse is when they tried to make this new karma, who is obviously entirely different, similar to the old karma, restraining her to be similar to OG karma was unhealthy,

they are pushing her in a new direction, she isnt OG karma in the least bit, but she is a bit healthier as a newer champ

PureMystic5/28/2015, 5:24:10 AM3 votes

Your post was far too try-hard eloquent for me to take completely serious and your dislike of what makes new Karma good is also off-putting for me tl;dr stop disliking what I like Her changes were unnecessary on new-Karma she was quite balanced. She had clear strengths : lane harass, baiting, mobility; and weakness: risky heal, easy to miss dmg, complex combo-ing to pull off 100% of the time Now they're making all her dmg front-loaded onto her Q and a spam bot of sorts and simplifying her to a state that's laughable. Her baiting with R W was easy to learn but truly hard to master especially when turret dived in 1v3s it can land you a great triple kill. Now she's built around using her other abilities in order to spam Q even her passive and cdr +mana reduc on Q is saying hey, spam Q 24/7 make countering easier...

i included some later karma nerfs that remove the heal from her mantra W in PBE which really kills her dueling potential

jDVL20eCYs5/28/2015, 5:39:33 AM3 votes

bla bla. really? first of all. she got buffed. and second. her kit make much more change. q has and always will be her premier damage spell, if you want damage you use r q. if you want to shield your team you use re. YOU NEVER UUSED RE FOR ITS DAMAGE PLEASE. and her extra root on w is so good and you use r w to survive some diver and hold them on place. they buffed karma damage, they buffed the diversity of her spell. they buffed the choices she can make, they buffed solo lane karma, they buffed support karma, they buffed jungle karma.

Luninareph5/28/2015, 4:36:25 AM2 votes

{quoted}

"We like diversity, but only if we approve" ~Riot

This doesn't bother me. Of course Riot only wants diversity they approve of in their game. What I can't understand is why they think their actions in regards to Karma have been worthy of approval.

{quoted}

So I wrote a post on the original changes on PBE ("Why the PBE Changes Suck, From a 1k+ Karma Main"), so I might as well comment on the final edition.

Having seen and played the old and new Karma, I actually liked the rework, although I know this isn't the most popular decision. I don't think she's milquetoast or copypasta at all. People loved her old passive because it made her dangerous when she was low on health...except the health gain from her old Q was rarely enough to justify the risk, whereas the RW heal ENCOURAGES smart engagement when Karma is low. It's why I was so pissed that the heal was removed on the PBE until they put it back.

You talk about how her W is a copy of LeBlanc's, except somehow dumbed down since it's point and click. However, Karma's tether doesn't slow and has a smallish range, which makes it require the most thought of all of her abilities. Never mind that almost all of Karma's damage is a skill shot or that the slow from Q is required to complete W's channel on more mobile champs.

With that being said, why the fuck would they remove the RE shield bomb? It was something KEPT during the rework BECAUSE it was iconic to her. If anything, just make the damage from it proc 1/2 the passive if that's their main concern.

The root on RW is odd. I mean, it's moving damage away from non-Q, but you use RW in lane to recover health and deceive the enemy. I don't know whether it'll be a net gain or loss in lane power. Yes, you lose a big chunk of damage when baiting the enemy with RW, but you also potentially get an extra Q during the root and you make it an INCREDIBLY stupid idea for the enemy to turret dive now. I really don't know how to feel about it.

TL;DR: I can't write short posts and I need help.

I am very glad you enjoy neo-Karma, and I went and read your mentioned post as well. Thank you for mentioning it, I like to read actual discussion about Karma.

I was honestly extremely optimistic for the rework when it first happened. It was a very different direction for Karma, but I was hopeful it would work out well. However, for me? I was bored by her in minutes. Do I have mana? Use Q. Is somebody close? Use W. Is there any kind of clash between ally and enemy? Use E. You could practically macro it. I will agree that R-W is the most interesting ability on her new kit, but that doesn't say much--and... the health gain on her old Q?? That was NEVER the part that I cared about benefiting from her passive. Q recovered health based on base first, % of max HP second, and AP third. Using R-Q was the thing you did LAST because it would remove the benefit of the passive. You popped R-E for a shield with an extra 80 health or so and enormous shield-bomb, then tried to burn them down with W and Q OR run away with R-W OR pop R-Q if you're pretty sure they'll get through your shield too fast and you needed the health the most.

W does not require thought. W may not slow, but E speeds up, and the overall effect is almost identical. If you use W and they flee, you follow with E. If you use W and they dive in, you E to block them. If you W to scare them off and they run, you're done (and maybe you E to get yourself back to safety more quickly). If you use W to scare them off and they dive in, you E to block them. I do not find this an interesting paradigm, not even slightly. Again, I WILL agree that R-W is a much more interesting ability that DOES actually take some thought, but I never felt the least enthused about W, successful or not.

I cannot for the life of me fathom the removal of the shield bomb. I WANTED them to pare down the effects of E--I've criticized this multiple times--because there was NEVER an occasion where you felt you were using R-E to its full capacity, what with all of the effects it had going on. But what I always said was, remove the AOE shield component and just leave the shield-bombing. Instead... they've cut the shield-bombing. I just. I can't even understand this. Not even a little bit.

I also cannot write short posts. If you find help, send it my way as well XD

iainB855/29/2015, 1:55:16 AM2 votes

To be honest I played a little Karma before, and I started to read her changes and got a headache.

Then my feeling was bottom line -- nobody had a problem with Karma before, and she was a fine niche pick (which Riot is supposed to design for rather than MUST pick champions) -- and she of all people is getting another overhaul?

Where is Riot's live balance team logic at this point?

El Hutch5/29/2015, 5:41:01 AM2 votes

ive been a karma player since before the remake and i loved her kit albeit a lil wonky and tbh it took me a while to enjoy the new kit which i love i mean loved. the changes made come from a good place but they don't feel good . here are my problems

you cannot wave clear! with your e

that means you cant land skill shots because creeps are in your damn way

which means you farm with your q

which means q is on cd

which means you are useless

also the changes removed the cool ability to do damage the enemy who is out of position and near my creeps. the kits just less fun all around .

on a side note im happy with most champ remakes and balance changes specially the new Ashe .

YOU BEEN WARNED5/29/2015, 3:45:50 AM2 votes

Wow, this thread is like the unison of pre-rework karma fans. Makes me feel sad I didn't use her in PVP back then. :|

Duke Anax5/28/2015, 11:30:03 AM2 votes

Geez, who was responsible for this rework, Stashu?