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Can we add some counterplay to Sion's counterplay?

MakersF·2/9/2016, 12:26:52 PM·135 votes·8,457 views

Right now Sion is counterplaying himself.

I take him (because I like big tanks) and then I hope the enemy is dumb and stays in my abilities. That's all I can do.

Except that, I get hit and hope I farmed well enough to pass the test, otherwise bye bye.

And don't even think about dueling that zed, lb, adc, support, whatever with 10 hp, you won't ever hit them.

I just build auras on him, at least I know I'm doing something. Of course playing with 300ms doesn't make things easier, but it's not the 300ms the problem here.

And god forbid the enemy has a Morgana. Than you basically are a big minion without attacks.

198 Comments

Jacknife2/9/2016, 1:26:00 PM35 votes

He does have his strengths, but he does need a few buffs in some areas. His shield is outright crap until you've majorly farmed/got 2 major health items. I wish you could land his Q by itself and get significant damage out of it, but sadly you always have to use E first, otherwise you're just wasting mana unless their mouse suddenly stops working. On top of that the amount of conditions needed to land a good ult... there's added counterplay, and then there's helping stupid. Sion's ult is helping stupid.

Squarefighter2/9/2016, 4:13:34 PM22 votes

If you really have 300 ms, that's the problem here. I'm a Sion main and in lane it's very easy to land every Q, teamfights are a bit different but you can still make your Q's count. I'm really sick of people saying he's trash, you just need to practice practice practice on him more.

HoukagoFapTime2/9/2016, 1:28:03 PM20 votes

If you're playing with 300 ping that's actually the problem...

Retillin2/9/2016, 2:19:32 PM17 votes

And yet Sion is the most "successful" of the reworks.

WeFlyNoLie2/9/2016, 7:50:38 PM12 votes

I wouldn't be against any buffs to Sion, but I don't think he needs anything major.

I play him top lane and as a jungler and I do just fine.

You don't need to charge your Q for the full duration to get the knock-up.

You don't always need to use your ult at max range.

Using your ult at point blank, triggering your shield, and landing your Q then detonating your shield is an amazing combo.

Don't try to ult that Leblanc or Zed, they'll blink out of the way.

I wouldn't recommend playing Sion on a team without other hard CC. Sion's specialty is to soak damage and stun-lock. If you have somebody like Lux, Thresh, anybody else that can lock down a target, you're good to go.

Maxing his W is how I always do it. Once you get it to level three with some health items, its not hard to detonate it for the damage. Pay attention to your opponents cooldowns. If they have a dash, wait for them to blow it, then use their CC. Worst Case scenario (as long as you don't miss) they burn flash for your ult. And that's a good trade.

Honestly, playing Sion comes down to common sense. Be aware of what your opponents can do to dodge your skills, be aware of what your allies can do to help you land your skills or work theirs off of your CC.

I see so many people complaining about how useless Sion is, but I don't feel as though they really play him. He's doesn't do everything, but what he does do, he does it very well.

And having a 300 ping isn't going to affect your gameplay? You're nuts.

Jbels2/9/2016, 3:59:26 PM8 votes

I can still find success with Sion, but I sometimes wonder what I'm actually supposed to be. I do enough damage to contend with fighters like Renekton, but I only have one basic ability that does physical damage, so I can't buy cleaver. I don't scale very well with AD so I can't really buy a hydra item. The other fighters get to buy one or two damage items and then build tanky, but it almost seems like Sion has to build tank items straight out of the gate or he dies far too quickly. And that's another thing, why am I so squishy at level one? Because I scale too hard on my W? Um...LDR? Why the hell is my starting health the same as mini Gnar's?

bloodmoth2/10/2016, 1:46:49 AM5 votes

New sion is awesome, but i could agree that he could use some reliability, especially with all those flipping mobile shitsters tainting the rift, but i dont think he is supposed to be the sole CCer on the team. when riot finally gets around to adressing mobility and its non-existant effect on power budgets, then sion would be much more powerful. Other than that, due to his unreliability i believe he is intended to pair up with another champ with reliable cc to enable his crazy cc, so hes more of a 2 part cc machine, also stop trying to land fully charged Qs, he doesnt need to charge it to max every time, a slow is better than just losing mana.

Also, his viability doesnt need to be tied to how easily he can catch lucian, he doesnt need to be able to catch every target, he just needs to be strong enough against the targets he can catch, which i think he is.

DeathBurst2/9/2016, 5:58:07 PM4 votes

tl;dr: I'm really successful with Sion currently, and I don't think he needs any buff. Here is how I personally play him, and how I manage to be successful.

I'm not really convinced. I do have a 70% winrate with Sion in Season 6. Maybe not enough games to be a significant sample, but I also had a 60% winrate in S5.

Try to slow your enemy with E, then charging your Q. Either they have to use their dash to go out, and you can safely zone them out and farm, or they take a huge chunk of damage. Do not underestimate your shield damage, especially when it is maxed (I max it 2nd, in certain games). It's important to detonate it, and to not only use it as a defensive skill.

And this ult, it's so strong... You can split-push and safely go away (immune to CC) when the enemy arrives. You can initiate big team fights and set-up the perfect engage for the rest of your team. You can roam and lane gank your allies. You can even do silly things like rush into a tower, damage it (yes, your ult damage structures), then hit it, then die and use your passive to finish it.

For items, I suggest:

  • rushing Iceborn Gauntlet or Frozen Heart (my preference go to IBG because it enables you to split-push efficiently, but it's really a matter of preference)
  • tank boots depending on the enemy team comp
  • Sunfire/Deadman/Banshee in the right order (depending on the biggest enemy threat, etc.). Maybe Spirit Visage for the CDR instead of Banshee if you don't really need the Banshee's passive. Maybe ZZ'rot in some specific circumstances where you really need to take towers, or Randuin if you really need the Crit reduction and/or slow.
  • Titanic Hydra to close the deal. Maybe as 5th or 4th item if you are ahead and don't need the resistances first.

Alternative builds:

  • rush Cinderhulk and Hunter's Potion (for the mana) in Jungle. You can infinitely clear, gank, use your 5 potions charge to get back to clearing, and gank again. You have to back only to buy items. It replaces Sunfire in the standard build, and I still rush IBG second.
  • include a Righteous Glory at some point, instead of one of the Armor items. I'm personally not fond of this item, but its active is still pretty strong.
  • I disagree with most of the items suggested: Ravenous is inferior to Titanic except in zombie mode, but you shouldn't count on you dying for an item to be good and Black Cleaver is a strong item but not on Sion, you cannot proc it fast enough (2 of your skills are magic damage, not physical)

The 20% CDR on your first item, and the mana too, is really important to be able to use your skills effectively. Your ult rank 3 has a ridiculously low cooldown compared to its strength, abuse it. Your Q is really strong too. If the enemy sees you charge it, they'll most probably try to CC you, and that's a good thing: it's one CC less that your carries will have to deal with, and you'll get back your Q cooldown in 2 seconds anyway. Remember that your E is also an armor shred, your ADC will be happy if you can put it on the guy they're attacking. And your passive has a HUGE BotRK-like on-hit effect.

Your job in team-fight is to:

  • engage with your ult
  • E then try to Q and get CC'ed, then Q anyway 2 seconds later
  • die first, and then force the enemy team to focus you a 2nd time (and die because of your carries left unchecked) or to suffer massive damage thanks to your passive on-hit (and die anyway) (protip: your MS buff when you're in zombie mode counts as a spell for the Gauntlet ;) )

The result of a typical teamfight with Sion should be a 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 for his team, where he is the only one dying.

DeathcapShaco2/9/2016, 2:37:22 PM4 votes

His E needs to be stronger late game... Strong in lane, useless mid to late game.

Bring back sion's 2 sec shield explode.

Olath Quortek2/9/2016, 4:09:48 PM4 votes

I don't get it. Sion's abilities are easy to counter so a smart enemy counters them. Ok... If I'm a smart Sion then I know that so I adapt the way I use my abilities to "counter" they way they are countering. I mean it's as simple and complicated as that. I'm not trying to say it's easy, I'm just trying to say that the counter to them countering is you thinking ahead and adapting... Not too much different from Ekko honestly... It's all about anticipation and zone control.

Treyen2/9/2016, 7:09:12 PM4 votes

"can't hit skillshots but i'm sure my 300ms ping has nothing to do with it" ok..sure

doombotMECHA2/9/2016, 6:21:34 PM3 votes

i've brought it up before, but i want to add that a few select champs (namely Kalista) are outright immune to sion. she just dashes and everything misses and even if he hits his e kali is immune to slows. champions should have distinct weakness and strengths but this is ridiculous.

Nebuul2/9/2016, 2:41:55 PM3 votes

The entire trick to Sion is landing his E. If you hit E, then you can land a knock-up Q unless the opponent uses a dash/flash.

I do agree that his W needs some love - I recommend having the 3s reactivation delay changed to 3/2.75/2.5/2.25/2.

BatchBustsMeta2/10/2016, 2:09:26 AM3 votes

Pllllllzzzzz don't touch Sion. He's fine the way he is, no buffs, and for the love of god no nerfs. he's got clear play patterns, and a great kit, that's really fun to try and master. Don't touch my main!!