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so confused with this new ad asn item.

NostolgicSkies·12/21/2015, 5:48:39 AM·1 votes·603 views

DFg was hitting tanks to hard. . .yet we will now have DFg for AD asn's. something that didnt need to be added when u could have just made LW do full % arpenn for melee and the current form for ranged to push ranged away from it, something u can see has already been done once with the restriction on hydra. i swear if ad asn's are allowed to have the power to melt down both squishes and tanks with such ease then i demand the same for ap asn's. so i want my dfg back or i want to be able to 100-0 a tank as an ap asn cause "i got left behind with the item changes" too. There was nothing wrong with ad asn's they where doing fine. For the few that might have fallen slightly behind, riot should have looked at them directly instead of releasing an item for the whole class when the whole class wasn't in a bad spot. and the "we are looking into reworking the mage class" does not make it okay or justifiable to screwing casters even more and make them feel like your intention is to remove the mid lane from mages entirely. while we wait to see if you even do re work the mage class let alone worry about how bad u might screw it up given riots history on failed reworking recently. (scion, Mord, cass, etc. . ) no matter the opinions or the views ap casters have been put in a state of mind where they feel you (riot) have abandoned them in favor of an all ad meta. hell with the new kog and corki reworks you can remove ap casters and still split your dmg ad/ap to avoid armour stacking as a defense. not all of us ap players want to be support. and it feels you are forcing us into support on the simple basis that we have CC in a time where cc seems to be handed out just as often as mobility was and still is handed out. (off topic. anyone else seem to think the game has seen enough true dmg added all of a sudden as well?)

3 Comments

Lord Dusteon12/21/2015, 6:13:23 AM2 votes

{quoted}

** DFg was hitting tanks to hard**. . .yet we will now have DFg for AD asn's. something that didnt need to be added when u could have just made LW do full % arpenn for melee and the current form for ranged to push ranged away from it, something u can see has already been done once with the restriction on hydra. i swear if ad asn's are allowed to have the power to melt down both squishes and tanks with such ease then i demand the same for ap asn's. so i want my dfg back or i want to be able to 100-0 a tank as an ap asn cause "i got left behind with the item changes" too. There was nothing wrong with ad asn's they where doing fine. For the few that might have fallen slightly behind, riot should have looked at them directly instead of releasing an item for the whole class when the whole class wasn't in a bad spot. and the "we are looking into reworking the mage class" does not make it okay or justifiable to screwing casters even more and make them feel like your intention is to remove the mid lane from mages entirely. while we wait to see if you even do re work the mage class let alone worry about how bad u might screw it up** given riots history on failed reworking recently. (scion, Mord, cass, etc. . **) no matter the opinions or the views ap casters have been put in a state of mind where they feel you (riot) have abandoned them in favor or an all ad meta. hell with the knew kog and corki reworks you can removed ap casters and still split your dmg ad/ap to avoid armour stacking as a defense. not all of us ap players want to be support. and it feels you are forcing us into support on the simple basis that we have CC in a time where cc seems to be handed out just as often as mobility was and still is handed out. (off topic. anyone else seem to think the game has seen enough true dmg added all of a sudden as well?)

Going through in order, bolded parts I'm talking about.

DFG was never removed or nerfed for hurting tanks. It was removed because of a few reasons, most notably that due to its power EVERY AP's burst combo had to be tuned around them getting DFG because otherwise with DFG they would point and click and then unleash frankly ridiculous damage if not tuned around it. It also had a horrible play pattern where assassins took it so that squishies could never realistically get within range of them without being deleted.

Except it's a passive instead of an active (IMPORTANT: means the buyer has limited control over how they use it) AND it's only %missing hp: no always relevant damage (% max hp), no straight up burst booster (doesn't just make you do more damage: makes you have a minute cooldown execute that can still be shielded/healed/zhonya'd/etc away).

That still ruins the point of the LW changes which was to make it so champions would pick it up as a situational "I need to go through armor" instead of an always "I need more damage". That just makes it back to an always buy and doesn't solve the problems the assassin class has in itemization.

That's mainly because Hydra's main buying purpose is for an AoE cleave around your autoattack target and it's active is centered around you. It's an item the active makes no sense to get and the passive would be basically a slightly weaker Jinx Q forever so it has restrictions.

The new item does not help assassins vs tanks. It currently has flat penetration (ONLY GOOD VS SQUISHIES) and %missing hp damage. That means the damage portion is only boosted if the assassin can get a champion low VERY quickly and the penetration is only good against champions that don't build much armor. For example, a 300 armor 4000 hp tank might take 1500 damage from an assassins full combo...which will be boosted by 375 by a 1 minute cooldown item. That sounds great, but that's before resistances: after resistances it's closer to 104 extra damage against the tank. That isn't much. Against a 80 armor 2000 hp squishy however, that 1500 damage is still boosted by 375, but the resistances only weaken it to 268. This means the item is good vs squishies, meh vs tanks.

Play a DoT mage or DPS mage then. The new item isn't helping assassins vs tanks just like DFG didn't help APs vs tanks.

The problem is pretty larger than that. Assassins have VERY few items for their class meaning they rely entirely on using other class's items to work (Zed used to always buy BotRK, an adc/light fighter item, despite not really wanting a lot of it's stats just because it helped him more then the other meh items to steal). They need actual itemization to work and this is a step in the right direction. The class as a whole still needs work in both new items and reworks for game health/champion differences (Akali/Talon/Diana especially), but this is a good first step to actually make the class both more viable and healthier.

Not most of the mage cast, just the primarily immobile ones that need to be changed. Mages need some work and the itemization changes in pre season (especially with mana regen) have fucked a bit but this item does not change the balance of casters at all.

Sion was a complete success on every front. Saying otherwise is willful ignorance (lore improved, gameplay massively improved, visuals improved, game health improved...). Morde and Cass both have a lot of problems but Cass thankfully should be being looked at again to actually fulfill her game fantasy. Otherwise, most of their reworks have been by and large success (all the adc changes, juggernaut changes after some balancing, Veigar changes, Poppy, etc.)

...? Kog'Maw outside of W and R is still primarily doing physical damage unless he itemizes heavily for on hit magic. Same with Corki. Both those champions already did a heavy mix of both and after the reworks still do. Nothing changed there.

...? Most AP's still go mid. And most actual supports do much better bot then an AP will unless that AP has ridiculous damage (Brand, Vel'Koz). Even then a lot of AP's still prefer to go mid and have actual gold.

Not much true damage added. And true damage by itself (even in it's %max hp form) is largely a healthy mechanic: it provides a way for a champion to always have X damage available (or for %max hp always do at least some damage to champions regardless of who specifically they are targeting).

NostolgicSkies12/21/2015, 6:26:14 AM1 votes

im not saying ap's dont go mid im saying it seems like riot is trying to force them out of mid. never said riot was doing a good job (examples buffing ad asn's, Quinn mid, thunderlords encouragng bursty ranged adc's to compete for mid with ap champs. etc. . .) if dfg was removed for the problems you say the same can be said for the new ad item. and if the new ad item is made because of class itemization why has riot still refused to look into ap asn's having to get stats they dont need from ap mana users items. why should i as akali have to buy mana to get sheen or get mana regen for CDR if i have no use for the stat. how is that okay but its not okay that ad asn's have to share their items with another ad class. the logic makes no sense until you start to question factors like favoritism or willfulneglect into the equation. it just makes no sense.

Yrzen12/21/2015, 7:33:37 AM1 votes

My problem with comparing the two items: the new item's effect is passive, and can do at maximum 20% of the enemy's health if timed perfectly, when they are missing 80% of their health. It also has to be triggered by an auto attack, and you can't have auto'd anytime up to 2 seconds before it goes off.

DFG did 15% of the enemy's health, was point and click, and additionally increased all damage they took for 4 seconds by 20%. They also have similar prices.

The new item is nowhere near as bad as DFG. It's more similar to Luden's Echo, and most of the time it should be doing similar damage.