Context for the recent jungle item adjustments

RiotFearless·1/29/2015, 3:16:18 AM·40 votes·26,887 views

TLDR: We did a pretty poor job ensuring you guys got the full reasoning for why we were doing this, and I really dropped the ball here. I failed to ensure that our patch notes reflected the intent of these changes, nor did I give Pwyff and crew nearly enough info to make that possible for them. I'm here to give the full context and also talk about how these changes fit into our strategy around the jungle right now.

So, the 5.1 "Smite with Charges!" change does a lot of cool stuff for the strategic freedom of the jungler, but we also knew that it would hit some of the same issues the Conservation mechanic had from season 4. Mainly, when you're not 'wasting' a resource with overflow, it creates very clear windows for the jungler to go do something else with a very low cost. In other words, a jungler waiting for Smite to come off cooldown can gank or go kill wards without feeling like they're making a deliberate trade for it.

Combined with a few junglers that could grab a camp or two and then bring out very potent ganks, this meant that 5.1 created a situation where the optimal strategy for some of our most powerful gankers was to go back to their old habits of deciding lanes before laners had even hit level 2 (in some cases). Worst of all was that failing these ganks didn't really set these junglers behind, because many other junglers didn't have the ability to invade and punish them after the failed gank.

The adjustments were made to hit this specifically, so that guys like Jarvan and Lee Sin had a bit more of a risky start if they tried this, as would Shaco, Xin, and Panth, even if they're not currently centered in the spotlight.

We are aware that this change hurts some of the junglers with weak clears, leaving them with less gold for pots to stay healthy during their second clear. We know this is really painful when blind monks and dunking princes are taking over games. We know have a lot of work ahead of us. We've been making changes and adjustments to the systems around the jungle at a really high frequency, and that's largely complicated the work that could have been done on the individual items or the champs. We've already been having a lot of internal discussions about what we need to do as the dust settles on the systematic changes. The 5.2 changes happened because we know early gankers needed to be much higher risk, and the extremely cheap jungle items were a main contributor to their reliability.

We still need to carve out more space for our tank junglers, and we are still trying to give junglers more reason to invade and counter jungle. These actions are one of the core reactions necessary to keep gankers in check, and currently aren't functioning at the levels necessary for healthier play. Can't say it enough, we have lots of work ahead of us still, and we're committed to making this better. 5.3 is already very tight for changes, so 5.4 is much more likely for the next round of changes.

139 Comments

DrMarshSwamp1/29/2015, 3:19:51 AM47 votes

If you know that junglers like Lee Sin and Jarvan are problematic why are you not nerfing them specifically if they are the ones doing or causing these early ganks?

Why hurt every Jungler for the actions of a few?

Slushi Simcambi1/29/2015, 3:20:29 AM19 votes

Still mad that my awful Zac is even worse.

But at least glad you acknowledge the problem that LeeSin and JarvanIV have with their deathgrip on the metagame. I am hopeful going forward that you will compensate Zac , Nautilus and others.

I am satisfied with what you did to Hecarim at least, so there is some faith there.

RiotPWYFF1/29/2015, 3:29:35 AM18 votes

Totes my bad on the context in the patch notes. Reading back on it, it definitely reads like we didn't acknowledge the full problem. Something to learn for the future definitely.

As an aside, we talk a lot about making precise changes that directly target the problem - I think for this one we took a more broad approach that ended up 'hurting' a lot of junglers, even if it was more directly aimed at aggressive level 2 gankers (Lee / J4 / Shaco / Panth / Xin). We're aware, we're looking into it.

lightdragoon881/29/2015, 3:27:05 AM14 votes

Nautilus Sometimes I think these jungle changes just weigh me down.

Uiru1/29/2015, 3:54:07 AM10 votes

Your jobs regarding the jungle would be a lot easier if you'd address the actual problem.

LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin ~Uiru

Mazianos1/29/2015, 3:36:50 AM10 votes

I feel like Evelynn is invis to Riot.

Buy item 2043

Retillin1/29/2015, 4:58:31 AM10 votes

First of all, thank you for the clear explanation. These are the types of things I think the community would love to see, and when we talk about "no Riot feedback" these are the posts we LOVE to see.

Second, what? You know Lee Sin and Jarvan are problems forcing out other champions and limiting champion diversity. Yet your idea after roughly two years of heavy jungle work is to try and change things up. Yet every attempt has seen the same thing. Lee Sin at or near the top. Yes other junglers have had their day in the sun. But I don't know how long you can try to "fix" the jungle when one thing stands out in every season (from season 2 on). It's like fixing your breaks when you have a flat tire.

So if you are trying to hurt Lee Sin, Jarven why are you also hurting the ones that already are having a hard time? You already have a new buff to Jungle Nidalee. You heard that right folks, she now stuns jungle monsters after hitting them with her spear. So we see they don't mind working on other junglers. Even if this is one who isn't on the radar for most folks while the tank ones are left by the way side. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/wPI2QYOA-gameplay-nidalee-spears-lock-upstun-monsters-in-the-jungle

So I think you understand the hesitation from the player base when we see all this effort to raise jungle diversity yet the one (sometimes more) champion that is always HURTING that effort left untouched. If this was an adc issue and (let's say Jinx) was this strong for this long, would you really rework the whole concept of adc to avoid touching her?

Again, THANK YOU for coming forward and trying to give us insight.

Quepha1/29/2015, 5:06:55 AM9 votes

"we know we have a lot of work ahead of us" good thing it's still pre-season oh, what's that? well it sure feels like a pre-season patch

Kitten of Evil1/29/2015, 3:26:02 AM9 votes

I for one really appreciate Reds coming to explain the reasoning behind changes. And while I don't always agree with them, I do appreciate them coming on boards to give us insight as to what they're thinking.

Kowe The Ewok1/29/2015, 1:54:11 PM8 votes

So wait, let em summerize:

  • You itentionally buffed the ganks of the already most dominant jungler while
  • Significantly worseneing the clear and ganks of already weak junglers

The jungle already was considered snowbally early

  • As a response you made the early jungle items more expensive, so catching up becomes even more impossible then it was

You can't be serious....

Not to mention your hate for ganks. I don't get it. It makes the game exciting. Do you want all 3 lanes to afk-farm for the first 25 minutes? Seriously. You even introduced free (trinket) wards.

Nublord1/29/2015, 3:40:05 AM8 votes

That's cool and all, but from what I have seen so far - you guys talk a lot about "knowing" there is a problem and "working" on it, but in the end nothing changes. So I am not going to belive anything you say until I see results. Pretty sure many ppl feel the same. After all, overloaded Lee kit and tanky junglers struggle is nothing new.

Goldenwolf141/29/2015, 6:36:20 AM8 votes

The problem that I see with the changes is that it seems like you guys are trying to fix up the items for the jungle when it's the jungle itself that is the biggest problem right now. So far from what I have seen from all patches after the new jungle came into play is all of them have been focused on the jungling items and smite and not a single thing about the camps. That has forced people into really just using two of the smite upgrades item 3713 anditem 3706 because the other ones were either nerfed because they gave one type of jungler to much power item 3715 , or were just useless to begin with item 3711 . It seems like you guys don't want to address the ludicrous amount of strength that the raptors have early on making them not worth clearing early on and just how the jungle favors how some champs are just built, JarvanIV and LeeSin and a couple of other champs as well. So I feel as though resources should not be put into the jungle items right now and should instead be put into balancing out the jungle camps for all kinds of junglers and not just the select few who can thrive in there. I still do not know why the jungle needed to be so drastically changed at the end of season 4 when that is when, in my opinion, I found the jungle to be the most balanced and fun form that I have ever played in all the time that I have played League.

aperson11/29/2015, 3:26:00 AM8 votes

you're a brave man coming here with this kind of post

Shouju1/31/2015, 2:27:58 AM7 votes

You know what made tank junglers waaay more viable? Quill Coat. If there were just a starting item like that for junglers now, they could probably come back without any real problems. Although the amount of jungle items is already pretty high, simply allowing there to be an offensive and defensive hunter's machete would solve a lot of starting problems.
Example: Hunter's Machete (Offense) - dealing damage to a jungle monster inflicts 10 bonus damage per hit (5 for AOE abilities) Hunter's Machete (Defense) - Taking damage from a jungle monster or minion reflects damage; from here it could be tuned to either reflect a significant amount of damage or have a decent restoration effect, depending on if this is meant to speed up tank jungle clear or help champions with a harder clear sustain through their troubles.

I know that the ideal scenario would be for every champion in the game to have a 50% win rate, regardless of their damage or meta position, and that's a great goal. But the fact is, that will NEVER happen. The game would die well before that. And the reason the game would die before it happened, is because it would be boring as all hell. The game is either imbalanced, or it's bland. That's how this kind of game works. The bland ones can have a much looser meta, because everyone is equal. Everyone has the same types of abilities, and therefore the same effect on the game. But that makes it boring, because everyone feels the same. A good meta allows for some imbalance. Currently the meta pretty much places the highest carry potential on the highest damage output, which makes sense, it's a team game, some roles are made to carry the team and others are made to assist in that.

I would love to see the day where Nautilus is just as Viable as lee sin, and Mundo is just as good as Riven. But they're different characters, they fulfill different roles. I liked Tristana, Sion, Soraka, etc.. Before their reworks. Apart from Trist's range nerf lategame (would happily sacrifice some damage for it) and Raka's unique ability to restore mana, I like them better overall. The problem is the idea about balance is that everyone should be on equal levels. Screw that. Let assassin's one-shot people, that's what an assassin does. Let tanks roll over people, that's what tanks do. Let early game champions be frustrating, and let late game champions be unstoppable. Stop nerfing or changing everything that's strong, and start bringing the other options up to it's level. Obviously there needs to be moderation, but come on, it shouldn't be that big of an issue.

If you want to hit Lee Sin, give him less scaling damage, or less sustain, or higher energy costs. Make him HAVE to do it right, or be punished for it, just to put more pressure on the players. If you want to hit Jarvan, just give him even worse mana problems. I don't have a problem with either of these champions, I just get tired of seeing them when I watch the game.
So instead of tearing these two down, why not bring Elise, Evelynn, Warwick, whoever, back into light? Hell, you nerfed the smite that made Warwick broken and then further gutted his ult. You didn't need to do both. Elise's damage is so minimal past the incredibly early game in comparison to other AP champions since the nerfs, and her utility is lower as well. Evelynn can't even clear the new jungle without exhausting her resources, how's she supposed to gank early with no combat stats on hunter's machete AND no early gold from clearing camps or reasonable base stats? I get that they were too strong at a time, but they got nerfed into being nearly unusable.

MrSc0tty1/30/2015, 8:37:15 PM5 votes

Tank junglers are problematic for you guys because when they have damage to clear the jungle they tend to roflstomp all over teams late game (see Amumu/Rammus winrates hitting 55-60%, the Zac/Hec/Naut meta back in the day etc ) and itemization changes tend to get abused by some of the primary, ahem, "Sinners" of the jungle....so why have we not started giving tank junglers increased damage vs monsters/minions on an individual basis? Pump up their power vs the minions to allow them to compete when it comes to early lane/clear pressure and if they're overbearing hit their PVP power levels to compensate.~~~~

Iffem1/29/2015, 5:31:42 AM2 votes

at this point, it feels like Lee and Jarhead need to be Olaf 'd or better yet, Poppy 'd