Context for the recent jungle item adjustments

RiotFearless··40 votes·26,887 views

TLDR: We did a pretty poor job ensuring you guys got the full reasoning for why we were doing this, and I really dropped the ball here. I failed to ensure that our patch notes reflected the intent of these changes, nor did I give Pwyff and crew nearly enough info to make that possible for them. I'm here to give the full context and also talk about how these changes fit into our strategy around the jungle right now.

So, the 5.1 "Smite with Charges!" change does a lot of cool stuff for the strategic freedom of the jungler, but we also knew that it would hit some of the same issues the Conservation mechanic had from season 4. Mainly, when you're not 'wasting' a resource with overflow, it creates very clear windows for the jungler to go do something else with a very low cost. In other words, a jungler waiting for Smite to come off cooldown can gank or go kill wards without feeling like they're making a deliberate trade for it.

Combined with a few junglers that could grab a camp or two and then bring out very potent ganks, this meant that 5.1 created a situation where the optimal strategy for some of our most powerful gankers was to go back to their old habits of deciding lanes before laners had even hit level 2 (in some cases). Worst of all was that failing these ganks didn't really set these junglers behind, because many other junglers didn't have the ability to invade and punish them after the failed gank.

The adjustments were made to hit this specifically, so that guys like Jarvan and Lee Sin had a bit more of a risky start if they tried this, as would Shaco, Xin, and Panth, even if they're not currently centered in the spotlight.

We are aware that this change hurts some of the junglers with weak clears, leaving them with less gold for pots to stay healthy during their second clear. We know this is really painful when blind monks and dunking princes are taking over games. We know have a lot of work ahead of us. We've been making changes and adjustments to the systems around the jungle at a really high frequency, and that's largely complicated the work that could have been done on the individual items or the champs. We've already been having a lot of internal discussions about what we need to do as the dust settles on the systematic changes. The 5.2 changes happened because we know early gankers needed to be much higher risk, and the extremely cheap jungle items were a main contributor to their reliability.

We still need to carve out more space for our tank junglers, and we are still trying to give junglers more reason to invade and counter jungle. These actions are one of the core reactions necessary to keep gankers in check, and currently aren't functioning at the levels necessary for healthier play. Can't say it enough, we have lots of work ahead of us still, and we're committed to making this better. 5.3 is already very tight for changes, so 5.4 is much more likely for the next round of changes.

139 Comments

DrMarshSwamp47 votes

If you know that junglers like Lee Sin and Jarvan are problematic why are you not nerfing them specifically if they are the ones doing or causing these early ganks?

Why hurt every Jungler for the actions of a few?

Chromatic Eagle10 votes

inb4 #LC$BigPlays

Jambat9 votes

{quoted}

If you know that junglers like Lee Sin and Jarvan are problematic why are you not nerfing them specifically if they are the ones doing or causing these early ganks?

Why hurt every Jungler for the actions of a few?

Because that has always been Riot's way.

(I agree with you, though.)

RiotFearless30 votes

We knew the items enabled a pattern, a pattern that JarvSin ( Lee Vin?) were able to opt into, but it's not just them. The items created too low of a threshold for success for a jungler's first few minutes. The item adjustment needed to fix that issue with the system, and would need to even if those dudes weren't generally strong.

Also as I posted, it's been very hard to make changes to individual champions while we're also making so many large systematic changes. Trying to get the systems of the game stable gives us a lot more space to hit the champs we need to it, and more excitingly, start bumping up the champs that we think we've pushed down with the system changes.

Shinjusuke30 votes

Funny how whenever there's "large systematic changes", Lee Sin conveniently manages to "coincidentally" avoid changes while everyone else gets nerfed around him.

Wonder if it has anything to do with that absurd play rate (which obviously has nothing to do with his power, at all.. nope.. definitely not..) or his flashy presence in LCS... hmm...

RiotFearless32 votes

I'm honestly not even sure what you're insinuating here.

The actual reason why Lee tends to due really well through many rounds of changes is because he's incredibly flexible, very poorly stat bound (can do well with a huge range of builds), grants a lot of power that cannot be repressed through systematic changes. As stated above, he needs to be changed, and we know that many functions of the jungle changes won't be realized without those changes.

Keevalroy14 votes

I think you know very well what he's insinuating...

Derpy Mike12 votes

Don't doubt Riot's ignorance. Not even for a second.

Death is best CC2 votes

Lee Sin's fan armor needs to go.

Nameless Voice33 votes

I don't think I'm alone in saying that I'd rather have a popular champ be less-than-viable than see him consistently overpowered.

Lee Sin's status as top-pick jungler has been stifling champion diversity for years. Whenever any other champion became strong because of a problematic kit ({{champion:28, Olaf }}), they were quickly nerfed into being almost unviable to stop them from overshadowing other picks, even though it would take a long time to fix them "properly" because they need a kit rework, even though these other champions were nowhere near as ever-present and stifling as Lee Sin is.

Lee Sin has been problematic for years and has been immune this. His kit makes him too strong, and it needs reworking. However, in the mean time, he's just been allowed to stay strong, instead of being nerfed hard to stop him from destroying champion diversity until he finally gets his much-needed rework.

I'd rather see Lee Sin being underpowered than see nearly every other jungler pushed to the side because he is too good. Lee Sin being underpowered only affects one champion; him being overpowered affects every other jungler.

tl;dr: Lee Sin needs a reworked kit to fix his problems, but until that is complete, he should be nerfed hard to give other champions a chance.

Yfrappefort11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hqw6bEoR,comment-id=00000002000100000005,timestamp=2015-01-29T14:06:03.134+0000)

I don't think I'm alone in saying that I'd rather have a popular champ be less-than-viable than see him consistently overpowered.

Lin Sin's status as top-pick jungler has been stifling champion diversity for years. Whenever any other champion became strong because of a problematic kit ({{champion:28, Olaf }}), they were quickly nerfed into being almost unviable to stop them from overshadowing other picks, even though it would take a long time to fix them "properly" because they need a kit rework, even though these other champions were nowhere near as ever-present and stifling as Lee Sin is.

Lee Sin has been problematic for years and has been immune this. His kit makes him too strong, and it needs reworking. However, in the mean time, he's just been allowed to stay strong, instead of being nerfed hard to stop him from destroying champion diversity until he finally gets his much-needed rework.

I'd rather see Lee Sin being underpowered than see nearly every other jungler pushed to the side because he is too good. Lee Sin being underpowered only affects one champion; him being overpowered affects every other jungler.

tl;dr: Lee Sin needs a reworked kit to fix his problems, but until that is complete, he should be nerfed hard to give other champions a chance.

This is my problem with Riot actually. They say it's hard to nerf a champion on an individual level when you consider all the changes going around him. Yet, look at Elise. Riot nerfed her, again and again and again to the point she got butchered (just look at the first match of the split with C9 VS TSM and you will see how weak she is atm).

They did the same with Evelynn or any tanks junglers as soon as they got just a bit strong (think Skarner or Sejuani).

Why can't they do that with Lee Sin too? I think it's about time he finally taste the same medicine.

I think consistency is the problem here. This is why many people, including myself, can't help to think that Riot is totally biased with some champions.

53872273_DEL2 votes

Well, in general you have lots of counterplay with lee sin. That's the main reason. people who play him have to be good at this game to succeed..

Shinjusuke7 votes

No, you don't, that's literally the entire reason he's so strong lol (To both statements).

The whole "he's super hard guys so he's allowed to be OP" has been debunked a billion times for one, and I don't mean to offend but anyone pretending there's strong counterplay vs a Lee Sin who actually knows wtf he's doing is deluding themselves.

Sure, a completely terrible Lee Sin has counterplay, because the one using him isn't using him right (every champion has counterplay that way). He doesn't have counterplay, that's the entire problem: His overloaded kit makes him good at everything and bad at nothing. The only people willing to adamantly insist otherwise are the Lee Sin players who (excuse the bad joke) are completely blind to how ridiculous a champion he is, because they can't handle the thought that maybe they're not just prodigies and maybe their champion has been way overpowered for years.

Slushi Simcambi19 votes

Still mad that my awful Zac is even worse.

But at least glad you acknowledge the problem that LeeSin and JarvanIV have with their deathgrip on the metagame. I am hopeful going forward that you will compensate Zac , Nautilus and others.

I am satisfied with what you did to Hecarim at least, so there is some faith there.

RiotPWYFF18 votes

Totes my bad on the context in the patch notes. Reading back on it, it definitely reads like we didn't acknowledge the full problem. Something to learn for the future definitely.

As an aside, we talk a lot about making precise changes that directly target the problem - I think for this one we took a more broad approach that ended up 'hurting' a lot of junglers, even if it was more directly aimed at aggressive level 2 gankers (Lee / J4 / Shaco / Panth / Xin). We're aware, we're looking into it.

Provengreil21 votes

I'd like to make a prediction.

New first gank target for Lee / J4 / Shaco / Panth / Xin: the other jungler. They're the only ones in the current jungling set capable of a meaningful early gank with high HP, and now the KNOW the other guy is going to is going to have crappy health as he struggles to make 2 potions and no sustain last an extra camp.item 3070 Amumu item 3070

all of a sudden, those guys aren't just the dominant junglers: They're literally the only viable picks unless all 5 are banned at once.

Retillin4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Pwyff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hqw6bEoR,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-01-29T03:29:35.582+0000)

As an aside, we talk a lot about making precise changes that directly target the problem - I think for this one we took a more broad approach that ended up 'hurting' a lot of junglers, even if it was more directly aimed at aggressive level 2 gankers (Lee / J4 / Shaco / Panth / Xin). We're aware, we're looking into it.

Pwyff thank you for coming to the boards and communicating. But how many changes, how much work can you do to deal with the problems of jungle without dealing with the main cause? And that main cause is trying (and failing) to balance the GAME around a Lee Sin jungle. Trying to balance other junglers around how strong/safe he is, well it's a waste of resources and goodwill. Once he is changed (not nerfed, not buffed, but no longer the safest jungler out there) your ideas to increase the healthy play of the jungle would most likely fall into place. But until then I don't think people really trust Riot to help the jungle.

Riot Phreak said:

"They played mid Janna because she was bullshit. They played mid Soraka because she was bullshit. Pros really** like to pick champions that are un-counterable**. Their opponents are, just like them, extremely skilled League of Legends players. If you can find a champion that CANNOT be outplayed, that's a really strong champion to play in top tier play."

And he then went on to defend Lee Sin, saying he didn't crowd out other junglers because he isn't that good:

"The following is personal opinion, so feel free to disagree. Lee Sin isn't actually the best jungler, he's just the most fun (and the most played across the entire playerbase). Thresh isn't the most powerful support, he's just the most fun. Do you really think we should nerf champions because they're more fun than others? You can make your own reasoning and have your own opinions on champion power at the very top tier, but as far as our actual matchmaking gameplay, objectively Lee Sin and Thresh aren't anything close to the most powerful champions in their role. I'd never ban them myself unless I knew I was facing someone who was specifically a "main" of that champion, just as I'd ban Urgot from an Urgot main."

This was when talking about pro picks. (So he was saying Meteos picks Lee Sin not because he is good but because he is fun)

Can we really TRUST what a Rioter says when things like this are so clearly wrong?

DracosKasu3 votes

The problem with Lee Sin came from the fact that he is too strong during early game and far too save during is gank. Also, some of people will defend him by saying that he ''have a weak later game'' BUT when you can snowball hard enough to feed all your teamate that ''late game'' will never happen because you cannot recover enough from all his ''early gank''.

Lee suffer from the same fact of Nidalee, they are far too safe.

lightdragoon8814 votes

Nautilus Sometimes I think these jungle changes just weigh me down.

Mazianos10 votes

I feel like Evelynn is invis to Riot.

Buy item 2043

RiotFearless13 votes

She's not! We talk about her very consistently in the design pit, and we know that she's probably the hardest hit. Can't say when we can get her some love, but she's not forgotten.

Keevalroy9 votes

You talk about Eve a lot, but what about Lee Sin? Can we expect some actual nerfs since he's been king of the jungle for years?

ShadowParker2 votes

Have you guys considered changing the way wards work with just her specific stealth? Seeing as how it isn't like any other character. Perhaps something like "normal wards (A.K.A. wards from sightstone, actual bought wards, etc.) work, but trinket wards do not?

Thryale4 votes

just go ahead and remove her stealth all together if yer gonna do that.

Uiru10 votes

Your jobs regarding the jungle would be a lot easier if you'd address the actual problem.

LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin ~Uiru

Seminole Sun1 votes

You mean the 45% win rate across all ELOs Lee Sin? He also has a losing record in all regions LCS right now (or he did going into this weekend).

Buff Aatrox Evelynn Nocturne Nautilus Amumu Skarner if you want but I see no actual EVIDENCE that Lee Sin is a problem. The fact that he "dominates" early game appears to be more than offset by the fact that he's pretty poor late game.

KING OF MASKS3 votes

Dominating the early game either negates the late game (ff20) or sets up for an extremely favorable late game.

Tentacle Love7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Seminole Sun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hqw6bEoR,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-01-30T05:51:34.279+0000)

You mean the 45% win rate across all ELOs Lee Sin? He also has a losing record in all regions LCS right now (or he did going into this weekend).

Buff Aatrox Evelynn Nocturne Nautilus Amumu Skarner if you want but I see no actual EVIDENCE that Lee Sin is a problem. The fact that he "dominates" early game appears to be more than offset by the fact that he's pretty poor late game.

You have to play Lee Sin or counter Lee Sin. That alone explains his atrocious win rate across all ELOs.

Win rate does not tell you if a champion is overpowered. Pick/Ban rate does.

Retillin10 votes

First of all, thank you for the clear explanation. These are the types of things I think the community would love to see, and when we talk about "no Riot feedback" these are the posts we LOVE to see.

Second, what? You know Lee Sin and Jarvan are problems forcing out other champions and limiting champion diversity. Yet your idea after roughly two years of heavy jungle work is to try and change things up. Yet every attempt has seen the same thing. Lee Sin at or near the top. Yes other junglers have had their day in the sun. But I don't know how long you can try to "fix" the jungle when one thing stands out in every season (from season 2 on). It's like fixing your breaks when you have a flat tire.

So if you are trying to hurt Lee Sin, Jarven why are you also hurting the ones that already are having a hard time? You already have a new buff to Jungle Nidalee. You heard that right folks, she now stuns jungle monsters after hitting them with her spear. So we see they don't mind working on other junglers. Even if this is one who isn't on the radar for most folks while the tank ones are left by the way side. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/wPI2QYOA-gameplay-nidalee-spears-lock-upstun-monsters-in-the-jungle

So I think you understand the hesitation from the player base when we see all this effort to raise jungle diversity yet the one (sometimes more) champion that is always HURTING that effort left untouched. If this was an adc issue and (let's say Jinx) was this strong for this long, would you really rework the whole concept of adc to avoid touching her?

Again, THANK YOU for coming forward and trying to give us insight.

RiotFearless9 votes

Yeah, I can totally see how the Nidalee thing makes this a bit confusing, and deserves some explanation. Not surprisingly, our design team has a lot of people generating a lot of moving pieces. Nidalee is still getting tuning and adjustments by the same folks that did her rework. We discussed what this could mean for the jungle, but happened outside the main group that's handling most of the jungle changes.

The changes we want to do to bring jungle tanks up is going to likely be a larger effort. Letting Nid hunt monsters was something that Riot Repertoir could do on his own, and with a very reasonable amount of testing. Bringing up a whole class of junglers will require a lot analysis, probably a solid amount of actual implementation, and a very large amount of testing, as the number of changes creates much more complex comparative alterations to the whole of the jungle balance.

I personally tested the Nid changes, as did much more talented players on our team, and they made a lot of sense for opening up some pretty cool plays for the champion. I don't think we'd ever want to stop someone from making some quality of life/consistency/awesome factor changes because we have a big block of work on our plate, especially when we could be confident that the smaller changes posed very little risk to the work at hand.

Starlighte21 votes

{quoted}

** The changes we want to do to bring jungle tanks up is going to likely be a larger effort.** Letting Nid hunt monsters was something that Riot Repertoir could do on his own, and with a very reasonable amount of testing. Bringing up a whole class of junglers will require a lot analysis, probably a solid amount of actual implementation, and a very large amount of testing, as the number of changes creates much more complex comparative alterations to the whole of the jungle balance.

Like the Fighter rework that has been promised since S2, and still hasn't happened?

Fearless.... man you gotta see why nobody believes Riot when they say things like this... Not only is your running track record terrible, but you never do anything about that track record. Smoke, mirrors, and buzz words aren't going to make the problem go away in the minds of the community even if you want it to.

RiotFearless15 votes

I get that we want those projects done, and while a lot of those discussions greatly predate my time at Riot, no one here would argue that we couldn't have done a much better job making sure that we understood how much work those projects would actually require, and then communicated that as we talked about wanting to take them on.

That being said, I'm not going to stop talking to the community about the work that is released just because other work isn't done yet. I know every time that I come out here that there's a lot of frustration with the projects we've talked about and haven't completed, and I know, before I write a single word that I don't have an answer to make that better yet. So when given the option between going silent, and doing nothing for you all, or being as honest and open as I can, even if I don't have a lot of the answers, I'm going to get on here and do this.

We don't expect this to make the problem go away. We know that we do that with a ton of hard work. We're doing that too. The problem doesn't go away for us until we fix it, and we don't expect anything less than those fixes to make the problems go away for you.

Cuix15 votes

we don't expect anything less than those fixes to make the problems go away for you.

Well, sure, that's basically true, but you know what actually does help a lot?

being as honest and open as I can, even if I don't have a lot of the answers

That. That's a great thing. Please continue doing that. Our frustrations with great big difficult projects are magnified by the silence surrounding them, and any time spent clarifying their progress or obstacles is extremely valuable.

Starlighte10 votes

{quoted}

I get that we want those projects done, and while a lot of those discussions greatly predate my time at Riot, no one here would argue that we couldn't have done a much better job making sure that we understood how much work those projects would actually require, and then communicated that as we talked about wanting to take them on.

That being said, I'm not going to stop talking to the community about the work that is released just because other work isn't done yet. I know every time that I come out here that there's a lot of frustration with the projects we've talked about and haven't completed, and I know, before I write a single word that I don't have an answer to make that better yet. So when given the option between going silent, and doing nothing for you all, or being as honest and open as I can, even if I don't have a lot of the answers, I'm going to get on here and do this.

We don't expect this to make the problem go away. We know that we do that with a ton of hard work. We're doing that too. The problem doesn't go away for us until we fix it, and we don't expect anything less than those fixes to make the problems go away for you.

It's not an "either or" situation when it comes to talking about the community. I'm simply pointing out and trying to explain some of the reaction you're getting in this thread with complete mistrust about whether or not you as a game designer, actually plan on legitimately nerfing champions that have seen play for over 3 seasons now.

What people want to see is progress, and the past two years have had some very infrequent patch updates compared to S1, S2, and some of S3. With such infrequent patches, it makes it difficult to followup on things that have gotten out of hand (WW's god-tier patch in preseason anybody? Lasted nearly a month...)

So when people point out that you guys continously overlook the likes of Lee Sin or J4 for real nerfs to their identity of "Everything Man" and people are cynical about Riot's emphasis on waiting for System changes to settle before making specific Champion changes... To put it another way Fearless, people don't trust Riot to nerf champions that see play in LCS because they are convinced that Riot won't nerf them due to some of the cool plays they can make.

Tiure4 votes

A lot of us aren't speaking up because we are pleased with what you are saying. The score of a post as a general rule is a better indicator of what the community thinks, NOT the number or type of the responses.

It's an easy trap to fall into, and there's a lot of literature out there about the kinds of psychological effects that set that trap.

The vast majority of us trust you and the rest of the balance team. However, literally nobody is going to take the time to write a list of great things they like about the Riot balance team every single patch. I could try, but there's no real motivation and there's not much point.

Marinaras Trench2 votes

Fearless, all I can say to you is thank you. For all the hate you get on the forums, you still come on here and try to explain to us whats going on! I would say the vocal minority are the ones complaining about your balance changes, and you should know a lot of us really appreciate what you do! Good luck in your future jungle changes, and don't let the hate stop you from taking risks, because it might just be the next big thing that we all love!

Leaf of the lake7 votes

Have you considered helping the tank junglers keep a competitive clear by buffing the gromp passive? If it increased in damage dealt the longer a target was affected by it (think toxic in pokemon), either through a time element, or a stacking element per-hit against you, it would help to normalize the clear times between slow clearers and fast clearers. While this would help the fast clearers clear slightly faster, the slow clearers would see more and more of a benefit the slower their baseline clear is. If these effects are too strong against champions, there's nothing wrong with making them only apply to monsters, which is where the poison armor is really needed.

Speaking of poison armor, the krug buff is currently (and probably always will be) very strong for AA centric junglers, effectively reducing the damage they take during a clear thanks to the stun. Meanwhile, tank junglers, who are often more ability based and have slower clears, tend to start gromp, but don't get the benefit of any damage reduction while clearing. So perhaps another avenue to explore is making the gromp buff reduce damage taken from jungle creeps (like the tough skin mastery), letting the tank junglers stay healthy on their initial clear.

Retillin7 votes

Thank you for the reply Fearless. I am always happy when a Rioter takes the time, and braves the blow back, to respond on the forums. But, but, but...

You didn't address the main point of my post. Yes the Nidalee add was something that I know you felt you needed to cover. I think really the idea that there are too many moving parts to touch junglers who are struggling is the wrong approach. It's something I've seen/heard from so many Rioters that I no longer believe it. I do not know how long you have been working at Riot but about half way through Season 2 the jungle had become stale. The diversity from that point on never really changed. Yes there would be a strong addition at times (Kha, Rengar, Elise, ect..) but there were only 2 to 4 champions who were really strong.

At the same time, top/mid/support/adc all changed a lot from patch to patch. Yes Ori was always there in the back ground, and Thresh is always there now as support. But over all There were a lot of changes.

What I think drives so many people crazy on these boards (and reddit, and S@20, ect...) is the idea that all of these major changes are not as necessary as Riot thinks. You yourself said:

{quoted}

The actual reason why Lee tends to due really well through many rounds of changes is because he's incredibly flexible, very poorly stat bound (can do well with a huge range of builds), grants a lot of power that cannot be repressed through systematic changes. **As stated above, he needs to be changed, and we know that many functions of the jungle changes won't be realized without those changes. **

Riot Meddler said:

"While I can see the appeal as the Shen player I don't feel tank/assassin's an appropriate combination for the game. Tanks go straight into a fight, have natural survivability, sustained damage patterns, team utility/CC and are usually not attractive targets to try and take down if you've got any better options. Assassins by contrast tend to flank, have extremely high target selection and burst, low team utility, lack constant survivability (instead relying on other tools like mobility, untargetability, stealth etc) and are usually great targets to kill if you can focus them. Combining those two categories risks creating very tanky, mobile champions with high CC/utility that set up their own kills, are extremely hard to take down and will happily chew through an entire team.

Is this not what Lee Sin is?

If you KNOW he has to be changed to help the health of the game, excuse me here, why the HELL is he not being touched? You (Riot) are placing so much money/time/goodwill to these jungle changes that you don't need to do if you just man up and deal with the issue at hand. Until that happens can you really blame people coming on the forums and bitching about why you are/are not buffing/nerfing champions/items in the jungle?

How many times can we see "we are aware of issues and are working towards champion diversity in the jungle" when the main issue is not dealt with and think "oh Riot knows what they are doing we can trust them".

I know I (and almost everyone on these boards) love the game and Riot as a company. But you can't expect us to really trust any more. Again, thank you for coming to the forums to TRY and give us insights.

Look if Riot just came out and said "we want Lee Sin to stay at the top of the hill because we believe he brings in more viewers and more players" okay. I don' think people would be happy, but we would feel we were dealt with honestly. And at this point, we don't. I am not sure there is a more scathing thing to say.

Slushi Simcambi4 votes

I like the idea of jungle Nidalee, but really, do we really need new jungle champions when many of the ones that we have are in such a pitiful state? Why shake up the formula when the one we have isn't stable.

Until you directly nerf Jarvan IV and Lee Sin the problems won't end. You keep dancing around it. It's like trying to build a house out of gum instead of mortar and you keep changing the bricks to try to make the building better. Just attack the problem directly. Don't create a super gum adhesive brick. It's not straightforward.

Just fix the problem, DIRECTLEE (see wat I did ther). Do it.

Kitten of Evil9 votes

I for one really appreciate Reds coming to explain the reasoning behind changes. And while I don't always agree with them, I do appreciate them coming on boards to give us insight as to what they're thinking.

Quepha9 votes

"we know we have a lot of work ahead of us" good thing it's still pre-season oh, what's that? well it sure feels like a pre-season patch

aperson18 votes

you're a brave man coming here with this kind of post

Nublord8 votes

That's cool and all, but from what I have seen so far - you guys talk a lot about "knowing" there is a problem and "working" on it, but in the end nothing changes. So I am not going to belive anything you say until I see results. Pretty sure many ppl feel the same. After all, overloaded Lee kit and tanky junglers struggle is nothing new.

Goldenwolf148 votes

The problem that I see with the changes is that it seems like you guys are trying to fix up the items for the jungle when it's the jungle itself that is the biggest problem right now. So far from what I have seen from all patches after the new jungle came into play is all of them have been focused on the jungling items and smite and not a single thing about the camps. That has forced people into really just using two of the smite upgrades item 3713 anditem 3706 because the other ones were either nerfed because they gave one type of jungler to much power item 3715 , or were just useless to begin with item 3711 . It seems like you guys don't want to address the ludicrous amount of strength that the raptors have early on making them not worth clearing early on and just how the jungle favors how some champs are just built, JarvanIV and LeeSin and a couple of other champs as well. So I feel as though resources should not be put into the jungle items right now and should instead be put into balancing out the jungle camps for all kinds of junglers and not just the select few who can thrive in there. I still do not know why the jungle needed to be so drastically changed at the end of season 4 when that is when, in my opinion, I found the jungle to be the most balanced and fun form that I have ever played in all the time that I have played League.

Kowe The Ewok8 votes

So wait, let em summerize:

  • You itentionally buffed the ganks of the already most dominant jungler while
  • Significantly worseneing the clear and ganks of already weak junglers

The jungle already was considered snowbally early

  • As a response you made the early jungle items more expensive, so catching up becomes even more impossible then it was

You can't be serious....

Not to mention your hate for ganks. I don't get it. It makes the game exciting. Do you want all 3 lanes to afk-farm for the first 25 minutes? Seriously. You even introduced free (trinket) wards.

Shouju7 votes

You know what made tank junglers waaay more viable? Quill Coat. If there were just a starting item like that for junglers now, they could probably come back without any real problems. Although the amount of jungle items is already pretty high, simply allowing there to be an offensive and defensive hunter's machete would solve a lot of starting problems.
Example: Hunter's Machete (Offense) - dealing damage to a jungle monster inflicts 10 bonus damage per hit (5 for AOE abilities) Hunter's Machete (Defense) - Taking damage from a jungle monster or minion reflects damage; from here it could be tuned to either reflect a significant amount of damage or have a decent restoration effect, depending on if this is meant to speed up tank jungle clear or help champions with a harder clear sustain through their troubles.

I know that the ideal scenario would be for every champion in the game to have a 50% win rate, regardless of their damage or meta position, and that's a great goal. But the fact is, that will NEVER happen. The game would die well before that. And the reason the game would die before it happened, is because it would be boring as all hell. The game is either imbalanced, or it's bland. That's how this kind of game works. The bland ones can have a much looser meta, because everyone is equal. Everyone has the same types of abilities, and therefore the same effect on the game. But that makes it boring, because everyone feels the same. A good meta allows for some imbalance. Currently the meta pretty much places the highest carry potential on the highest damage output, which makes sense, it's a team game, some roles are made to carry the team and others are made to assist in that.

I would love to see the day where Nautilus is just as Viable as lee sin, and Mundo is just as good as Riven. But they're different characters, they fulfill different roles. I liked Tristana, Sion, Soraka, etc.. Before their reworks. Apart from Trist's range nerf lategame (would happily sacrifice some damage for it) and Raka's unique ability to restore mana, I like them better overall. The problem is the idea about balance is that everyone should be on equal levels. Screw that. Let assassin's one-shot people, that's what an assassin does. Let tanks roll over people, that's what tanks do. Let early game champions be frustrating, and let late game champions be unstoppable. Stop nerfing or changing everything that's strong, and start bringing the other options up to it's level. Obviously there needs to be moderation, but come on, it shouldn't be that big of an issue.

If you want to hit Lee Sin, give him less scaling damage, or less sustain, or higher energy costs. Make him HAVE to do it right, or be punished for it, just to put more pressure on the players. If you want to hit Jarvan, just give him even worse mana problems. I don't have a problem with either of these champions, I just get tired of seeing them when I watch the game.
So instead of tearing these two down, why not bring Elise, Evelynn, Warwick, whoever, back into light? Hell, you nerfed the smite that made Warwick broken and then further gutted his ult. You didn't need to do both. Elise's damage is so minimal past the incredibly early game in comparison to other AP champions since the nerfs, and her utility is lower as well. Evelynn can't even clear the new jungle without exhausting her resources, how's she supposed to gank early with no combat stats on hunter's machete AND no early gold from clearing camps or reasonable base stats? I get that they were too strong at a time, but they got nerfed into being nearly unusable.

MrSc0tty5 votes

Tank junglers are problematic for you guys because when they have damage to clear the jungle they tend to roflstomp all over teams late game (see Amumu/Rammus winrates hitting 55-60%, the Zac/Hec/Naut meta back in the day etc ) and itemization changes tend to get abused by some of the primary, ahem, "Sinners" of the jungle....so why have we not started giving tank junglers increased damage vs monsters/minions on an individual basis? Pump up their power vs the minions to allow them to compete when it comes to early lane/clear pressure and if they're overbearing hit their PVP power levels to compensate.~~~~

RiotFearless6 votes

This is a primary avenue that we're interested in for the jungle tanks. Tank spells tend to be much more than just damage, often granting CC along with their damage. Letting them have a bit more mana efficiency and clear speed in the jungle does seem very promising. There is some risk of creating a class of top laners that are also very potent counter junglers, but that has systematic answers we could use once tank junglers have more tuning levers.

Iffem2 votes

at this point, it feels like Lee and Jarhead need to be Olaf 'd or better yet, Poppy 'd

Quepha7 votes

{quoted}

at this point, it feels like Lee and Jarhead need to be Olaf 'd or better yet, Poppy 'd

you can't "poppy" a champion, the state poppy was in happened because they literally did nothing to her for years.

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