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Are we ever going to have a chat about post-rework Rengar?

mO4fTzH2so·11/1/2014, 9:02:38 AM·12 votes·1,180 views

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It's still just so bad- I don't mean this entirely balance wise. All things considered, as a whole Rengar is strong right now. But he's strong in a problematic way. If you think Rengar's worth defending just because "he sees competitive play", I won't bother responding to you unless it's to make an example.

Skarner had a follow up, Cassiopeia is being doted on to no end, and yet it's still completely silent on the Rengar front. Scruffy abandoned ship when it was clear the rework was a flop in the eyes of Rengar players and all we've gotten since then is bug fixes, bug introductions and nerfs.

Things that are problematic about new Rengar's design:

-Has a 6 second CC combo (3.5 second snare followed by a hefty 2.5 second slow) in the form of triple E from ult (only enabled by his ult generating ferocity after leaping). Triple Q still remains in the game, so why on Earth are we allowing Triple E to exist if the change never fixed Triple Q? Triple E is almost unavoidable once Rengar leaps on you from his ult, and if he hits you with one chances are he'll hit you with the other two as well.

-His power crutches so hard on the numbers from his trinket that Rengar is forced into an aggressively dominant role- that is to say if he falls behind he is royally screwed, much more so than other similar characters. Still giving Rengar the option for standard trinkets is a huge noob trap (feel's like a shitty situation where both choices are just kind of the wrong decision but there's no other alternative).

-Bonetooth Necklace's trinket function only upgrading based on kills is just eugh. Being able to reach level 18 and only having a level 1 trinket is just silly and punishes a Rengar who's behind even more.

-He's still a bruiser-assassin who does both while ahead but neither when behind. (Hint: Making him into an assassin without the bruiser bits will both please original Rengar players and put him in a much easier spot to balance state given his current kit).

-He's locked into jungling as his new playstyle makes laning even more "all or nothing" than it was previously.

-He has little variety in his play patterns. Old Rengar could splitpush effectively, look for skirmishes and teamfight well. New Rengar only really excels in skirmishes unless he's ahead (which is really shitty if you're behind once again).

-His ultimate's warning is either useless or too effective, often neutering his ganking potential against some champions during the early game (Not many / no BTN stacks, possibly no boots and no real items) or almost pointless late game (when he has BTN stacks and lots of speed). I still think the best solution here is to add a Nocturne / Sion effect to it- a global warning and nothing else. Tell players what's up without giving it away.

And while we're here (assuming this gets any attention), CAN WE PLEASE FIX THE BUG WHERE DURING RENGAR'S ULT, HE LOSES VISION ON PEOPLE WHO WALK INTO BRUSHES FOR A FEW SECONDS? It can be completely crippling and I've lost many chances at winning games because of it.

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21 Comments

IzGBSCjZpf11/1/2014, 9:46:34 AM4 votes

The way Rengar's kit is built almost pigeon-holes him into playing the bruiser/initiator/CC-bot role and I'll admit he does it very well as demonstrated by his play at Worlds. However, is this really what we want from Rengar? Truth be told I really enjoy his current playstyle, but I know I'd enjoy him even more if playing him this way wasn't so risk-free and there were other, equally viable options. I think it's important to find an equilibrium so I can play tanky initiator Rengar if it fits my team, or balls deep maximum swag assassination Rengar if that's what we need.

Rengar's trinket is essentially the manifestation of the 'go big or go home' style of gameplay. If he gets early kills and assists then great, he gets free bonuses to help him scale into lategame. If not, he often feels janky and outclassed -- which is fine, this is quality feast or famine design and it rewards healthy gameplay and risk taking. However, what's not fine is how your trinket (not the trophies) scales with stacks -- I should be allowed to spend money for the extra effects of my trinket just like every other champion can.

Earl Eulrich11/1/2014, 10:42:04 AM3 votes
  • He's still a bruiser-assassin who does both while ahead but neither when behind. (Hint: Making him into an assassin without the bruiser bits will both please original Rengar players and put him in a much easier spot to balance state given his current kit).

mh, I personally liked him far better as a initiating-bruiser than as an Assassin (1st iteration of the rework that actually worked, but got buffed into oblivion after a lot of tears). Jumping onto someone and deleting him within ~1sec is just not fun for anyone besides rengar.

Xonra11/1/2014, 9:35:03 AM3 votes

It's still just so bad- I don't mean this entirely balance wise. All things considered, as a whole Rengar is strong right now. But he's strong in a problematic way. If you think Rengar's worth defending just because "he sees competitive play", I won't bother responding to you unless it's to make an example.

Skarner had a follow up, Cassiopeia is being doted on to no end, and yet it's still completely silent on the Rengar front. Scruffy abandoned ship when it was clear the rework was a flop in the eyes of Rengar players and all we've gotten since then is bug fixes, bug introductions and nerfs.

Things that are problematic about new Rengar's design:

-Has a 6 second CC combo (3.5 second snare followed by a hefty 2.5 second slow) in the form of triple E from ult (only enabled by his ult generating ferocity after leaping). Triple Q still remains in the game, so why on Earth are we allowing Triple E to exist if the change never fixed Triple Q? Triple E is almost unavoidable once Rengar leaps on you from his ult, and if he hits you with one chances are he'll hit you with the other two as well.

-His power crutches so hard on the numbers from his trinket that Rengar is forced into an aggressively dominant role- that is to say if he falls behind he is royally screwed, much more so than other similar characters. Still giving Rengar the option for standard trinkets is a huge noob trap (feel's like a shitty situation where both choices are just kind of the wrong decision but there's no other alternative).

-Bonetooth Necklace's trinket function only upgrading based on kills is just eugh. Being able to reach level 18 and only having a level 1 trinket is just silly and punishes a Rengar who's behind even more.

-He's still a bruiser-assassin who does both while ahead but neither when behind. (Hint: Making him into an assassin without the bruiser bits will both please original Rengar players and put him in a much easier spot to balance state given his current kit).

-He's locked into jungling as his new playstyle makes laning even more "all or nothing" than it was previously.

-He has little variety in his play patterns. Old Rengar could splitpush effectively, look for skirmishes and teamfight well. New Rengar only really excels in skirmishes unless he's ahead (which is really shitty if you're behind once again).

-His ultimate's warning is either too effective, often neutering his ganking potential against some champions during the early game (Not many / no BTN stacks, possibly no boots and no real items) or almost pointless late game (when he has BTN stacks and lots of speed). I still think the best solution here is to add a Nocturne / Sion effect to it- a global warning and nothing else. Tell players what's up without giving it away.

And while we're here (assuming this gets any attention), CAN WE PLEASE FIX THE BUG WHERE DURING RENGAR'S ULT, HE LOSES VISION ON PEOPLE WHO WALK INTO BRUSHES FOR A FEW SECONDS? It can be completely crippling and I've lost many chances at winning games because of it.

Skarner had a follow up? you mean where he got some changes that were basically moving stuff around with no real nerfs or buffs, THEN was buffed, was played in literally 2 LCS games, then was significantly nerfed damage wise, and never heard from again. That follow up?

Regnar has been nerfed about buffed maybe more than any other champion since his release, then got a rework, then multiple discussion threads, even more work, multiple buffs since. I'm not sure what you mean by needing more attention or discussion. and Cass has been ignored for YEARS, got a HORRIBLE rework, was ignored for nearly 2 months, and just recently had a post that said some things were in the works.

That is faar from being doted on to no end. There was a reason people were making angry thread after angry thread about Riot ignoring her. Hell olaf still hasn't been properly fixed like they said he would be, they just kinda trailed off in mid thought on him and moved on.

DriednWashedUp11/1/2014, 9:05:15 PM2 votes

In my opinion I think Rengar is fine. He has the same problem as uydr in a way what he's has many options but he's binary in his playstyle. Kha'zix is a champion that supposed to evolve and adapt while Rengar in his champion design is has this go big or go home kinda like many junglers like xin. For rengar to opperate he has to choose to spend all his resources into one task for example:

Triple Q, good for blowing squishies up but you can get kitted. (rengar's base movement speed isn't that great and he's melee) Triple E you can't get kitted but you lose damage compared to the triple Q.

With this in mind I think he's binary but he isn't detrimental to the game.

Narasimha11/1/2014, 3:35:06 PM1 votes

-Has a 6 second CC combo (3.5 second snare followed by a hefty 2.5 second slow) in the form of triple E from ult (only enabled by his ult generating ferocity after leaping). Triple Q still remains in the game, so why on Earth are we allowing Triple E to exist if the change never fixed Triple Q? Triple E is almost unavoidable once Rengar leaps on you from his ult, and if he hits you with one chances are he'll hit you with the other two as well.

I mean, he's giving up literally all his damage for that cc. Empowered Q is the one that hurts the most, and its probably a lot easier to fight him off/survive if he doesn't use it.

-His power crutches so hard on the numbers from his trinket that Rengar is forced into an aggressively dominant role- that is to say if he falls behind he is royally screwed, much more so than other similar characters. Still giving Rengar the option for standard trinkets is a huge noob trap (feel's like a shitty situation where both choices are just kind of the wrong decision but there's no other alternative).

I'm really not sure what you mean here. A person has the option of both. If you feel confident enough (which you should on average), then grab the bonetooth. If you think you're going to be absolutely screwed, take the regular one.

-Bonetooth Necklace's trinket function only upgrading based on kills is just eugh. Being able to reach level 18 and only having a level 1 trinket is just silly and punishes a Rengar who's behind even more.

Its to reward his playstyle. As you said, he's designed as a very aggressive champion. If you're not continuously jumping in, then you're not really doing it right. On the other side, it also help his opponents keep him in check.

-He's locked into jungling as his new playstyle makes laning even more "all or nothing" than it was previously.

When's the last time you've seen a Nocturne in lane? Or a Shaco? Or even a Hecarim (15 min of fame notwithstanding)? Some champions are just made to be at home in the jungle.

-He has little variety in his play patterns. Old Rengar could splitpush effectively, look for skirmishes and teamfight well. New Rengar only really excels in skirmishes unless he's ahead (which is really shitty if you're behind once again).

90% of all champions boil down to a single playstyle. You don't see Ahri as a split pusher, or Shaco as a bruiser, or Teemo as a burst mage.

Messaiga11/1/2014, 6:43:14 PM1 votes

I'm just going to leave this idea here. http://www.reignofgaming.net/forums/rog-user-content/written-work/64136-how-to-rework-the-kitty-kat-assassin-rengar

NoMonku11/1/2014, 10:24:52 AM1 votes

I like where he is as he is basically an all or nothing champion and is INCREDIBLY rewarding if played and executed correctly. The thing that hurts him is that its pretty much over for him if he falls behind too far. I feel its fair just because there are other champions who are kind of in that area.