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Yasuo will never be balanced until his double crit is removed.

Messaiga·1/19/2015, 7:19:58 PM·104 votes·11,691 views

As many have said before, double crit from his passive is the core problem with Yasuo. He scales insanely hard off of just 2 items (Shiv and IE or PD and IE), and still continues to scale after that (Armor Pen, BORK's %HP damage). To make matters worse his Ult basically prevents any counter building (50% Bonus pen for 15 seconds + 35% total pen from LW, around 55% total).

In contrast his laning is not exactly the strongest and those who are inexperienced with him tend to feed because of it. Once he begins building into Shiv or PD it's a slippery slope if you aren't ahead of him by that point. That's not to say he can't be countered (Ryze and Lissandra come to mind, as well as basically any champion with hard CC that is targeted or easy to land). But, what I think is most frustrating about him is he scales incredibly hard and has very low windows of opportunity to fight back (Q has a short cooldown, E can be spammed as long as minions are nearby, lategame he's got a 30 second CD on Ultimate without CDR).

In my opinion he needs a (soft) rework, plain and simple. Remove the double crit and his damage is ruined but he can be balanced from there. In my mind I see him kind of like a hybrid between melee carry and assassin, but with more utility than either one of them. I find it interesting how his Q essentially replaces his basic attack, though it does disappoint me that his Ult's damage isn't very good (most of his Ultimate's power is put into the armor pen). They should also use his flow for more than just "You get a free shield from this".

My suggestions to change him?

  • Remove the double crit off his passive, it's no fun for anybody. He reaches lategame status by like 20 minutes and then he can 2 shot anybody when every instance of crowd control is not being used on him. It's mostly a gimmick to boost up his damage anyway, while it also limits buildpaths and doesn't contribute anything to his character archetype.

  • Restore the strength of his passive's shields (brings shield/flow values up to 60 - 690 from current values), bring the duration up to 2 seconds. Flow, Shields, and Windwall are what make Yasuo unique and they should definitely be more emphasized in his kit. It fits great with him and his archetype, has counterplay (pop shield and/or Wind Wall before committing to a fight with him), and its what makes Yasuo's laning phase somewhat safe.

  • Wind Wall now costs 40% of Yasuo's Flow. In turn, reintroduce the Flow generation passive on his W: "Yasuo is granted 20% of his Flow when striking an enemy champion with Steel Tempest". Lastly, his Wind Wall now has a set amount of HP that scales with his rank in Wind Wall (400/800/1200/1600/2000).

  • Sweeping Strike now costs 10% of Yasuo's Flow. Helps to introduce a window of opportunity where you can actually fight back versus Yasuo and puts a limiter on his mobility other than "how many minions are around me?".

  • Last Breath - Remove the bonus armor penetration off of this ability. Once again it's not very fun for anybody (just like his double crit) but more importantly it nullified any chance of building defense versus him. Increase the cooldown on this ability as well (up to 100/80/60 seconds?), it's cooldown is way too short for the power it can offer (especially lategame, 30 seconds CD is just stupid). To make up for those two nerfs, increase the damage (200/300/400 + 200% Bonus AD sound about right?) and upon landing, Yasuo's Steel Tempest will be guaranteed to critically strike for 10 seconds.

TL;DR - Remove the uninteractive parts of Yasuo's kit (Crit and free Armor Pen), emphasize his flow mechanics, add more windows of opportunity to fight him.

For those wondering, much of the inspiration of this thread came from this one. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/lBkYPFEW-as-a-plat-1-yasuo-main-with-400-yasuo-games-yasuo-needs-a-damn-rework

*** Update 1: Changed the steroid attached to Ultimate, now causes his Steel Tempest to have guaranteed Crits for 10 seconds (duration might seem high, not sure), though cause of that no base damage increase on Q.**

*Update 2: Wind Wall's HP is no longer influenced by Armor and MR, costs less flow now.

Edit: I see a lot of people saying that I just want to see Yasuo gutted. No. You got it wrong. The intent (heh, Yasuo pun) is that he cannot be fun to play as, to play against, and be balanced at the same time with his doubled crit. He does need some type of powerful steroid to keep him pumping out damage, I get that (which is why it is moved to his Ultimate, and a rather powerful one at that).

Keep in mind, I do see that he's a teamfight oriented melee ADC and wouldn't he still be one with these changes? He still has crits (after he uses Ult, for 10 seconds, full damage with no crit damage reduction, though it is limited to his Steel Tempest), his Ult just has more of a SPLAT feel to it because it has higher scaling (lets be honest he's like a cross between melee adc and assassin, boasting fair burst and high sustained damage).

Giving some type of limiter on his mobility seems fair considering how well he can get around, and it's not that big of a limit either (though, it does cause more interaction than you think. For example, at full flow, your opponent could attack you to prevent you from engaging which would mean you should engage before you have a full flow bar).

If you think these suggestions would ruin him, then share your thoughts on what would suffice to prevent him from not being ruined.

150 Comments

JustMyBassCannon1/19/2015, 7:33:22 PM41 votes

ACTUALLY, as a player who has done the math and given a damn about the mechanics of Yasuo's doubled up Crit, I would say Riot pretty much nailed the balance on that.

When comparing balance, you need to use something on equal ground for a comparison. Simply put, I compared Yasuo to Tryndamere directly, and have mathematically shown that, at the same 3-item and full builds, their DPS is about equal at the 3-item point, and Tryndamere's DPS goes above Yasuo's with a full build.

While Yasuo gets the doubled up Crit Chance, the total damage of his Crits are reduced by 10%. Instead of 200%, it's 180% Crit Damage. With IE, it's 225% instead of 250%. And his Q gets reduced by 25% instead of 10%, so it's 150%, or 187.5% with IE.

Yeah, in mid-game, he's still capable of a lot of damage. But every assassin and every melee carry is capable of a lot of damage. It's nothing special with Yasuo. Tryndamere gets a free 35% Crit Chance and 25-60 bonus AD, and his crits are full damage. Master Yi gets +10% of his total AD passively, can get another (stacking) +20% as true damage, +80% attack speed, Alpha Strike can crit, and he has his double-attack passive. Fiora has a +120% AS steroid for 3 seconds, a passive +35 AD, and Blade Waltz, nuff said.

By comparison, Yasuo's steroid is very straightforward; he gets twice as much crit chance and reduced damage on crits. This gives him a power spike earlier than Yi, Tryndamere or Fiora, but it doesn't make him stronger than them.

You Found TM061/19/2015, 7:40:54 PM17 votes

Yasuo is broken not only because he has double crit (which is an issue) but also because he has more synergy than any other champion in the game, around 40% of champions have some forced movement ability that activates his ultimate, which has a window of opportunity that begins from the moment an enemy is affected by one of these abilities to almost a full second after the ability ends (I have on video a time where an alistar knocked up a vayne, she landed and turned around to attack alistar, and was then ulted by yasuo) and riot has come out and said that they will keep making champions with knock ups because they aren't affected by tenacity (which is an indirect nerf to irelia) but havn't addressed Yasuo in the slightest...

Jamaree1/19/2015, 7:21:55 PM11 votes

Yasou isn't even that good anymore.

Commando Yi1/19/2015, 7:23:23 PM10 votes

don't really see a problem with champions i steam roll over ._.

AHeroNamedHawke1/19/2015, 8:56:30 PM9 votes

Also @OP, stop trying to turn Yasuo into a full tank + bork bruiser, that's boring

Sneak Dog1/19/2015, 10:27:57 PM6 votes

If you remove the hyperscaling part that makes Yasuo a melee adc, he becomes a tank, maybe a bruiser. If you make his double crit active only at certain flow amounts, his shield hinders Yasuo more than it rewards him. If you make his abilities cost flow, he'd be punishing and unrewarding to play. You would be rewarded for walking as much as possible instead of being an awesome mobile melee adc dashing everywhere.

Already his crits are reduced by 10%, dealing only 180% damage or 150% on Q. Already the base damage of his Q doesn't crit (only the 100% ad part crits, with a high penalty). Already Yasuo needs to buy 50% crit chance to gain the full potential of his hyperscaling, rather than getting it for free.

In fact, his Q doesn't even benefit from the double crit chance at all. He gains double crit chance, but halved crit damage on his Q.

I think the issue here is that adcs deal a ton of damage, and fast. Not Yasuo specifically. It just happens to be that adcs are quite good at mimicing assassins in damage lategame because their itemization says so and Yasuo gains access to the backline with his ultimate. ** Edit: updates 1&2** garentueed Q crits after ulting. So you want Yasuo to be an assassin? Build a bork and a BT and go kill people in 3 seconds?

Wind wall health: You really want Yasuo to be the next Zed? Insanely strong splitpushing assassin? The reason wind wall has no health is because Yasuo was designed to be a teamfighting melee carry. Not to be a splitpushing melee assassin like Yi and Fiora or a splitpushing melee carry like Tryndamere. Heck, with the flow cost, Yasuos shield is punishment for him. "Oh no, my shield procced, now I can't cast windwall and now I'm dead".

Try to keep Yasuos role in mind when thinking of solutions. He is supposed to be a teamfight-focused viable melee carry.

Kuroi861/19/2015, 11:04:37 PM5 votes

Lets remove what makes Yasuo unique and make him a bruiser instead.

Lets go with no.

Buttigieg 20201/19/2015, 9:04:40 PM5 votes

10/10 would downvote again. Yasuo needs severe buffs atm, he is so weak. Anybody who has Range will destroy him in lane thanks to his 420 hp at lvl 1.

Nausicäa 1/20/2015, 1:50:42 AM5 votes

So essentially you want to a nerf a champion thats currently underpowered.

Bronze is the only place Yasuo is overpowered, not even gonna bother checking your stats because i know you're wood league.

This entire thread upvoted by the Bronze V circlejerk. Downvotes incoming.

PrinceArchie1/22/2015, 2:03:07 PM4 votes

I think Yasuo is fine, it's not a bad thing to scale well with items because if he doesnt have those items or if he gets those items very slowly you can make his presence minimal to none very easily. His shield can be shattered by a mere auto and gives more than enough time to strike, his windwall has a high cooldown and his mobility pretty much comes with the risk of being easily Cc'ed and hit while needing to move through targets to do so. Here's the real problem with Yasuo, people just don't like playing agaisnt him. Why? Because his vulnerable stages of play for many don't feel vulnerable enough. Many picture a champs vulnerability something like this

"he blew his spell's all he can do is auto now, go go go!"

But against Yasuo it's more like

"Yay I popped his shield! But he can still win the trade if I mess up cause of his Q, repositioning with E and potential windwall outplay... D:"

Thats where people get "unease" from when playing against yasuo, they don't like the potential of being outplayed when they appear to have the green light, but I feel that aspect of Yasuo is warranted. Yes he still has his windwall available and E depending on how many allies/creeps are around. But at the same time each one of those potential outplay tools can be mitigated by you as a player if you prepare your strike and trade at a time it's better for you. If you're freezing the lane or if he has a slightly bigger creep wave than you his E is hampered a lot. Allowing you to take advantage of that and potentially win a trade/all in if you kow you have the power to burst him down.

Same can go with windwall logic, he will pop it if there is pressure to do so. If you're worried that you may lose a trade due to it why not bait it out, the same way you typically wait to all in when there is no shield? The downtime is much longer so at that point you have an even greater opportunity to shut down is outplay. Again I do understand the frustration against laning against Yasuo but I don't think its right to remove the possibility of skillful outplay potential of a champion and replace it with stricter built in cooldown/resource management.

Lets not forget for a majority of the game he can still be blown up quite easily, can still be locked down quite easily and can still be poked out quite easily. His offensive prowess is scary for a lot of people but I feel like not many realize how scary they can be to a Yasuo and shut down his aggression if they played with more calculated aggression, instead of passive fear.

Not every champion you face should or will have to manage cooldowns/resources the way you do. Should there be trade off's for that? Yes absolutely but that dimension of play should not be removed just because players simply havent adapted to preparing for the kill, rather than merely "waiting" for it, as they do every other time. Making his other abilities/aspects of his play depend on his "flow" is overdoing it and giving him the same limitations our typical casters have. Honestly its just a matter of outwitting and correct execution. Yea thats unwanted pressure when Yasuo has that presence but that mindgame shouldnt be taken away.

Yakas1/20/2015, 6:19:51 AM4 votes

Yasuo is fine where he is. Actually takes skill to play him and is the reason why i main him. Before i could do good even when playing bad but now, i have to put some serious effort to get and stay in a good position all game.

It's is pretty much the reason why yasuo is at a solid 46% win rate now.

Fakinaway1/21/2015, 3:04:37 AM3 votes

.

BrutalCabbage1/20/2015, 8:01:40 AM1 votes

Yasuo hasn't been a problem for months now, and you suggest to gut him beyond belief when he's not even high tier.

His early game is UTTER garbage, he ends up with quite a decent amount of crit chance after just two items (they even nerfed IE without compensating Yasuo, which is absurdly unfair and I don't even really play Yasuo, have less than 10 ranked games on him), but that doesn't mean anything. He gets SLIGHTLY above average damage mid game (not even that much since his crit damage is brutally reduced), but you have to realize his survivability sucks. He blows up in skirmishes, he blows up in teamfights, he can be assassinated just as easily as any ADC, his ult doesn't just need a knockup, it needs a GOOD one, because he has to commit while being squishy as hell and if all the enemy team is not properly CC he's just going to get collapsed on.

Overall, Yasuo is (for the greater part of the community and according to pick rates/ban rates/win rates) an overall balanced champion (he needs something back for the IE nerfs IMO) that is if anything on the weak side. His winrate is actually low everywhere and is barely 45% above Diamond (and has been so for a while) if that matters to you, and it is statistically LIKELY you're going to win whenever you face one. If people STILL complain about him being too strong they are just salty and very much so. I too hate some champions but I don't waste my time complaining on the boards asking for them to be nerfed unnecessarily, since I'm not arrogant enough not to acknowledge I don't really know anything of game design and balance. Please stop spamming this Yasuo BS all over.

EDIT: just read the topic again. You are just misinformed, he hasn't been picked in competitive for AGES. So much salt, really.

SearingDarkness1/19/2015, 10:46:21 PM1 votes

When you critically strike you deal double damage. With this in mind which is better, critically striking all the time or having more damage per attack? Also just because you are critically striking more than someone else doesn't mean you are doing more damage, if they do 100 per attack and never crit while you have only a chance to do 150 and when you don't you do about 75 damage then they have a better chance of winning the fight. Reliable damage is always better than unreliable damage like crit damage. When balancing Yasuo they only have to deal with his damage ratios because crit only works if you actually have damage to double.