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More LCS picks/bans discussion...

Matthias9119·10/21/2014, 3:03:55 AM·4 votes·943 views

Leading off of this thread: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/491fp4px-worlds-pb-stats-59120-champions-were-picked-in-s4-worlds-17-of-them-made-71-of-picksbans

That was reporting on picks+bans at Worlds, I looked up more data about champs that were picked/banned in the EU+NA LCS but not at Worlds.

Out of the 276 matches in the EU and NA Summer Series and Playoffs, the following champs that were NOT picked/banned at Worlds were used:

  • Amumu (1P/0B)
  • Anivia (3P/1B)
  • Annie (2P/1B)
  • Ashe (3P/0B)
  • Draven (2P/0B)
  • Jax* (49P/70B in series, 1P/0B in playoffs)
  • Karma (1P/0B)
  • Karthus (4P/1B)
  • LeBlanc* (19P/44B in series, 0P/0B in playoffs)
  • Lux (2P/0B)
  • Malphite (2P/0B)
  • Miss Fortune (1P/0B)
  • Nasus (2P/0B)
  • Nocturne (7P/0B)
  • Olaf (1P/0B)
  • Quinn (1P/0B)
  • Renekton* (51P/8B in series, 1P/0B in playoffs)
  • Shen (3P/0B)
  • Shyvana* (81P/7B in series, 0P/0B in playoffs)
  • Sivir (3P/0B)
  • Skarner (3P/0B)
  • Soraka* (4P/10B -- pretty sure this was pre-rework)
  • Teemo* (0P/1B -- not sure of the circumstances)
  • Trundle* (15P/2B in series, 0P/0B in playoffs)
  • Vladimir (2P/1B)
  • Volibear (1P/0B)
  • Warwick (1P/0B)
  • Xin Zhao (1P/0B)
  • Yorick (7P/0B)
  • Zac (3P/0B)
  • Zyra* (28P/0B in series, 0P/0B in playoffs)

That means the following champs were not played at either Worlds or in the NA/EU Summer Split:

  • Brand
  • Cassiopeia
  • Cho'Gath
  • Darius
  • Diana
  • Fiora
  • Gangplank
  • Garen
  • Gnar
  • Hecarim
  • Heimerdinger
  • Kennen
  • Malzahar
  • Master Yi
  • Mordekaiser
  • Nautilus
  • Poppy
  • Sejuani
  • Shaco
  • Sion
  • Taric
  • Teemo* (banned once, never played)
  • Tryndamere
  • Udyr
  • Urgot
  • Veigar
  • Vel'Koz
  • Viktor
  • Wukong

So what's going on with these champs?

The following champs have received substanial buffs or a rework since then:

  • Cassiopeia
  • Garen
  • Gnar
  • Sion
  • Soraka
  • Viktor

So I'm not going to discuss those champions further here. They may need more work, but it's too soon to say whether they are still in a bad place competitively.

Several of these champions have already been identified by Riot as in need of reworks/changes/buffs:

  • Darius
  • Diana
  • Gangplank
  • Mordekaiser
  • Poppy (she of the infamous "if she ever becomes good with her current kit we'll nerf her into the ground" comment)
  • Taric
  • Urgot
  • Warwick

And so I will also not say much more about them. They have problems, Riot knows it, they're being worked on.

Additionally, there was a pretty substantial shift in toplane between the summer series and the summer playoffs and then Worlds, which dramatically reduced the usage of:

  • Jax (he also got nerfed a bit)
  • Renekton
  • Shyvana
  • Trundle

Nothing really changed with these champs besides Jax getting marginally squishier, but they fell completely out of favor. This is due to broader melee/ranged balance issues (as well as Alistar being absurdly broken for several patches, including the one Worlds was played on). I think that has been discussed to death elsewhere, and is the sort of thing Riot will look at addressing with more systematic changes in Season 5.

LeBlanc got a substantial nerf when her silence was removed, which took her completely out of competitive use. I have a feeling Riot will revisit her if players don't adapt better to her changes in the preseason.

Zyra had no nerfs but went from super-popular (at least as a support) to unused practically overnight. Honestly I'm not quite sure what happened there; this might just be her getting crowded out by new champs like Braum, or maybe something that hard countered her got buffed and became popular.

Beyond those champs, this leaves the following list of champions that haven't seen competitive play in at least six months:

  • Brand
  • Cho'Gath
  • Fiora
  • Hecarim
  • Heimerdinger
  • Kennen
  • Malzahar
  • Master Yi
  • Nautilus
  • Sejuani
  • Shaco
  • Teemo* (banned once, never played)
  • Tryndamere
  • Udyr
  • Veigar
  • Vel'Koz
  • Wukong

I want to break these down further:

  • Brand

Brand has barely seen competitive play since his introduction. He has a lot of AOE damage, but little CC (a stun that requires landing another ability and THEN a skillshot) and zero mobility. He also relies heavily on long-cooldown abilities that must be comboed together to be effective. Unfortunately, "immobile, AOE-damage-oriented combo mage" just seems to be a lousy kit right now.

  • Cho'Gath

Despite decent sustain and a theoretical ability to be a lane bully, a crippling lack of mobility seems to be a major issue. He can gain a lot of free HP by devouring things, but he doesn't have any defensive steroids. His initiation is not as good as many other tanky champions, since he has to land a delayed AOE skillshot that only covers a 175-unit radius.

  • Fiora

Fiora's a snowbally melee ADC, but is squishy and one-dimensional. In teamfights she's basically a walking ult, so unless she's fed enough to burst half their team down she can't do much.

  • Hecarim

Hecarim seems to be in sort of a weird place right now, and I don't have enough experience with or against him to say what his issues are. He does tend to build tanky in the jungle, and tanky junglers in general are strugging right now.

  • Heimerdinger

My feeling is that due to the nature of his kit he's always going to be a niche pick at best. He's strong at zone control with his turrets, but this also means that enemies can just go where he isn't outside of laning.

  • Kennen

I haven't played with/against Kennen enough to really say what his issues are. Might be one of these cases where he needs a clearer strength and weakness, since he currently seems to get outclassed by some other champ no matter how he builds.

  • Malzahar

Malzahar suffers noticeably (like Warwick) from being heavily reliant on a suppression ult. He does have a (sort of AOE) silence and an AOE spell with %health magic damage, but he also has zero mobility and his ult can be countered by not just QSS but also any sort of CC on him.

  • Master Yi

Yi's kit definitely makes him a bit of a noob-stomper, since he gets blown up in a hurry if you apply hard CC and burst him down. I'm not sure how to fix this without changing his core identity -- against low-CC teams or players who try to duel him he'll always do a lot better. He can splitpush well, but coordinated teams that react properly to the splitpushing threat can keep him from doing much damage unless he snowballs out of control early.

  • Nautilus

Another tanky jungler that is struggling. Lots of CC and good initiation, but slow. Probably needs a shift in the overall jungle meta to be viable.

  • Sejuani

Yet another tanky jungler having problems in S4. Again lots of CC and good initiation (as well as some free defensive stats), but slow early clears and poor counterjungling. I feel like she is underrated, but to be strong in competitive play will take changes to the jungle itself.

  • Shaco

Another noob-stomper champ that gets shut down hard with proper counterplay. Somewhat reliant on cheesing opponents, and it's hard to do that against competent teams. Little to no teamfight presence. Again I'm not sure how to fix this without changing his core identity, and with his current identity he'll always be a niche pick at best.

  • Teemo

It's Teemo. His kit's built to be annoying, not win games. Just not enough teamfight presence, and doesn't splitpush well enough to win games that way.

  • Tryndamere

A hyperscaling melee ADC who can get away with building glass cannon due to his ult. The problem is he has almost no CC and smart opponents can play keepaway or save CC to use on him when he ults. Again strongest when splitpushing, and an organized group of opponents can shut that play down unless he built a huge early lead. Also strugging due to melee vs. ranged issues in top lane. Again sort of a "core identity doesn't work well in organized 5v5 play" champ.

  • Udyr

A tanky, power-farming jungle. Good move-around-the-map mobility, but limited ability to stick to targets and little CC. Unless you let him free-farm Feral Flare for a long time he's not that great in a teamfight. Reliant on splitpushing, and once again organized opponents can shut that avenue down.

  • Veigar

Veigar really only shines in a game where he can massively farm up with Q, and where there's a squishy high-AP champ on the enemy team that he can blow up with his ult. (I dislike the enemy-AP scaling on his ult, as it makes him VERY binary and in some cases punishes you for being ahead while against him.) No mobility, moderate AOE CC (but that can get shut down hard by Banshee's Veil or champs with spell shields). Infinite-scaling champs are always likely to be better in solo queue play, since teams won't push as hard to end the game early.

  • Vel'Koz

Vel'Koz has been unpopular since he came out, although he maintains a pretty good winrate in solo queue. Decent CC and true damage, but zero mobility hurts him in competitive play. Xerath (mega range) and Ziggs (long range plus self peel plus crazy waveclear) are safer choices, even if he's better at melting the enemy team in optimal situations. I do feel like he's a bit underrated (he may fit well in an AOE wombo-combo sort of team), but he may need a nudge or two to emphasize his strengths.

  • Wukong

Suffering from both tanky-jungler and melee-top-lane syndromes simultaneously.

No real clear patterns. Some of these seem salvageable, others need reworks, some need jungle changes, and a few just have a core identity that will always mean they're a niche pick. Thoughts?

10 Comments

DrCyanide10/21/2014, 3:55:55 AM1 votes

Still working my way through the post, but Teemo was probably banned in the Alliance vs Millennium game. That game, both teams banned champions to spell the abbreviation for the NA team they were cheering for, then proceeded to throw caution to the wind and duke it out in a blood bath.

DaCush10/21/2014, 4:20:44 AM1 votes

The LCS is based around team comps and organized 5v5. The majority of the playerbase plays solo q. Some of those champs are extremely strong in solo q. Fiora and trynd and some of the best solo q top laners. Wukong is a great jungler. I mean, a lot of the champs are still extremely viable and don't need to be touched. You're argument in this thread and the other one is that chamos should be balanced around the lcs and that's just not possible imo. Some champs will just always be solo q champs. Others definitely need reworks because they are old and don't have modern kits (taric, veigar, poppy, etc.) Stats should be more based on variety and viability in solo q imo because that's all I play and care about, not saying I don't enjoy watching the LCS.

AmazingGoat10/21/2014, 5:56:32 AM1 votes

One pattern you clearly picked out was that tanky junglers just aren't desirable right now. This is largely because they don't apply any map pressure early and can actually be a liability for your team as the enemy can pick on them by counter jungling (esp. Lee Sin).

To be honest though, this isn't really just about tanky junglers, as what LCS seemed to really show us is that the only three viable junglers are Lee Sin, Kha'Zix, and Rengar. J4 was the clear "next best" option, and he was clearly outclassed by Lee Sin or Kha in most games he was played.

This arguably explains: Hecarim Sejuani Nautilus Shaco Warwick jungle (terrible pre-six ganks) (although Udyr is a jungler, I don't believe lack of strength early is the main reason he isn't played)

The next group is pretty simple: immobile mages. This explains: Brand Kennen Malzahar Veigar Vel'koz

The next group is equally simple: melee carries are simply not played competitive unless you count Jax when he was ridiculously OP. This explains Yi/Trynd/Fiora/Wu/etc.

I think this just leaves Cho, Heimer, and Teemo from your list. IMO Cho suffers from normal melee problems that aren't completely resolved by a skill shot q, Heimer is a unique champion that controls a zone and is much easier to play around in organized play, and Teemo's shrooms are a lot less powerful when entire teams are running around with sweepers and avoiding areas that haven't been cleared.

A Retarded Clown10/21/2014, 5:57:14 AM1 votes

And in both lists, notice how almost all the champions not used are melee. It's very disappointing to see that. Kha'Zix in LCS was basically used as a ranged poke machine, he made NO decent plays when he got in melee range, all he did was get obliterated whenever he went in but do enough damage and poke to set up a play for his team.

For Melee DPS to be viable, MELEE late games need to be more than just 'one shot adc' or 'get one shotted by adc'. Ranged ADC's ABSOLUTELY need better ways to apply their damage than right click or in the case of a few, spam high damaging long range skillshots with huge hitboxes and no cds.

Twitch was the only champion that showed us what being skilled with an ADC and good team based use of an ADC meant. Every other ADC was just your run of the mill cheese. Because let's face it in lane its ridiculously easy to force twitch back and gank him, the fact that so many players managed to avoid being gibbed while making aggressive plays as well is just a testament to raw skill.

Matthias911910/21/2014, 4:41:38 PM1 votes

I agree that a lot of marksmen (or at least the most popular ones) boil down to just right-clicking to victory in the late game. Or a lot of them, at full build you lose DPS when you use your non-steroid abilities!

Not sure what the answer there is.

Edit: this was supposed to be in response to, uh, Mr. Clown. Who should probably change his summoner name.

12tales10/21/2014, 4:58:59 PM1 votes

Kennen I haven't played with/against Kennen enough to really say what his issues are. Might be one of these cases where he needs a clearer strength and weakness, since he currently seems to get outclassed by some other champ no matter how he builds.

Nerfs to Doran's Blade and his base AD mean that he's no longer able to bully lanes, which was one of his main draws when he was a competitive pick. I personally think that, with the current ranged heavy top lane meta, he could be allowed some of his old power back without becoming too overbearing, but eh. He's just a victim of itemization changes in much the same way that Graves or Sivir are.

Hecarim Hecarim seems to be in sort of a weird place right now, and I don't have enough experience with or against him to say what his issues are. He does tend to build tanky in the jungle, and tanky junglers in general are strugging right now.

Hecarim's standard build is something along the lines of Lizard->Triforce/IG->Tanky. His issue is that his W and E have, like, 20+ second cooldowns, which makes his ability to contribute to skirmishes very inconsistent and makes him vulnerable to being overpowered in extended fights. Also, his ult's a lot easier to dodge than other comparable abilities (Unstoppable Force, for instance).

Shaco Another noob-stomper champ that gets shut down hard with proper counterplay. Somewhat reliant on cheesing opponents, and it's hard to do that against competent teams. Little to no teamfight presence. Again I'm not sure how to fix this without changing his core identity, and with his current identity he'll always be a niche pick at best.

Given that Shaco is scheduled for a rework in the near future, I wouldn't personally include him in this list. That said, inSec has played Shaco multiple times in the LPL to reasonable success - he's only unplayed in the west.

Vel'Koz Vel'Koz has been unpopular since he came out, although he maintains a pretty good winrate in solo queue. Decent CC and true damage, but zero mobility hurts him in competitive play. Xerath (mega range) and Ziggs (long range plus self peel plus crazy waveclear) are safer choices, even if he's better at melting the enemy team in optimal situations. I do feel like he's a bit underrated (he may fit well in an AOE wombo-combo sort of team), but he may need a nudge or two to emphasize his strengths.

The primary issue with Vel'Koz, in my view, is that he simply doesn't fit into what teams want to do right now - he's a support in a meta where the ability to catch people out of position and peel for your ADC is the primary qualifier for a support, and he does neither of those things effectively. Altho again, like Shaco, I'm reasonably confident that he's been played in LPL.