Meddler Gameplay Thoughts and patch 8.3 approach (long thread)

These are my personal thought as well as thoughts that I heard from pro players/challenger players/streamers and I agree on. So please hear me up and let's eventually discuss it in polite manner in hope this will be seen by Riot and not get considered another "personal attack" kind of thread that Riot avoids.

Meddler has released yeasterday Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 19. Currently the game is in quite of chaos. Some problems are here for a long time already. Let's see what is going to be done to address these issues. I will be putting Meddler thoughts into quotes so you can distinguish my personal thoughts from Meddler's:

Nerfs: Jarvan Katarina (previous nerfs didn't do enough) Magical Footwear Kalista (potentially taking power from her ult) Manaflow Band (less certain on this one, but looking at it again at least) Buffs Master Yi Tryndamere Caitlyn Volibear Viktor

Jarvan as said by Meddler:

Our take is that Jarvan's pretty much always the right choice in the jungle at present, given combination of his numerical power and range of tools/flexibility he brings (engage, early power, duels fairly well, can burst, lot of build flexibility, disengage etc). Play rate by contrast isn't something we use as an indicator of whether or not a champ should be buffed or nerfed (though it can be a good indicator that a champion should be investigated). Champs with high play rates can still need buffs (fun and cool themes so people play them regardless even if they're weak). Champs with low play rates can be too strong (niche or poor theme, kit not so fun, still overpowered when picked even if less people do so because most people don't pick off power alone)

I agree with that. J4 is strong all around and he is never a wrong choice. He can go tank and still dish out a lot of damage, he can go assassin build if needed. He is flexible and probably too dominant.

Katarina: She has to set up daggers but it feels like even if she mess up quite a lot she still has huge kill pressure and damage regardless. Plus:

We think Kat's a bit too strong across a range of MMR bands, including above Plat, and including when played by people with only moderate amounts of experience on her. It's not just one tricks with 100s of games doing well.

About Magical Footwear. I kind of don't understand why do we nerf it. Free tier 1 boots with 10 ms advantage and less cost. I dont see it gamebreaking to be honest. There are better options in inspiration tree that can pay off better than this rune.

Kalista while being out of meta for quite some time, she somehow sees more play in soloq than before. Both fleet footwork and lethal tempo gives her a lot of power. I wonder what they want to change regarding her ulti. Sometimes she feels overall really really strong, but sometimes completely useless.

Manaflow Band. This rune is really annoying. While on some mages with moderate cooldowns and mana costs it helps them with resource regeneration for the cost of other runes power, on many champions it allows toxic lane and bullying patterns (usually on champions that have a lot of damage themselves and their only problem was being gated by mana e.g. pantheon). This needs work, but if it gets nerfed too much then mages or just champions who used this keystone to get some help will be left with same problem again.

What now? Feels really like nothing. Because it is going to be the third patch of the new season and they still didn't address issues that were here for season or more. No twitch nerfs, No jayce nerfs, no gp nerfs, Ornn is still ravaging top lane. Top lane is either lane bullies like jayce, teemo, pantheon and ornn or klepto abusing bruisers/juggernauts like GP, fiora, nasus, illaoi.

Buffs:

Yi is going to get number buffs. It may echo on very low elo, but above silver Yi is quite weak.

About Trynda. He might have been not that good, but in my honest opinion he needs rework. He either runs into his hard counter and gets screwed and can only split for the rest of the game (which he usually does anyway) or dominates the lane and splits too but can group for a fight over objective and 2 hit enemy squishies. Feels like feast or famine gameplay that is really toxic pattern for both - trynda players and players who fight against trynda.

Caitlyn. After attack speed nerfs she was kind of weak. Though she got headshots workign on turrets lately. She needs buffs, but riot should be careful with that. She still has traps (lower duration but still quite oppresive in regard of clarity - traps behind turrets) and we remember when she was picked a lot and it wasnt fun. So she should be buffed but in a way so she doesnt become oppressive again. I would really like to see some ult changes, because in teamfights or even 2v2s you wont be using it. It feels good only in scenarios when one enemy gets caught out or 1v1 and enemy flees with low hp. In any other situations she doesnt have ult to be honest.

Voli was out of play for 2 seasons at least though Riot should be carefull with those buffs too. I am strongly against the overall idea of tanks dealing damage and Volibear with his execute mechanic scaled form his health that he builds anyway plus missing health of enemy really feels strong. Righteous glory rush and you are good to catch anyone.

Viktor was also out of mid lane completely. He can't compete with champions that have point and click abilities with basically more damage than his skillshots. Champions that have mobility etc. He needs help, but Riot should also be cautios because his kit can be overpowered if too many numbers get buffed.

I thought I will see Lucian buffs already, but overall riot doesnt seem to like the idea of buffing casters adcs. I dont have quote for that, but somewhere between Ezreal nerfs and klepto nerfs Riot stated that they don't intend to make caster adcs meta. Which also leads to another problem, because Riot was always saying they don't want to dictate meta, but saying that they just admitted they actually want to control what is meta. The state of top lane and huge power of crit adcs really is a prove of that in my opinion.

Meddler also has talked about counterplay giving this example:

Champions as a whole should have counterplay, they should also have moments of reliability though, moments that give them a payoff for successfully dealing with their weaknesses. Any easy example of that's Nasus Q. If Nasus is on top of you and has a bunch of stacks you're often just screwed - it's a basic attack modifier there's no way to outplay at that point. There's a lot of counterplay to Nasus as a whole though around keeping distance from him and shutting down his ability to build stacks and needed items in the first place. Counterplay's spread different parts of the game, from how you mechanically use your abilities, to how you play strategically (e.g. when to roam), to what items to build, to what champs you pick, to taking advantage of long enemy CDs etc. Sometimes conversations around counterplay get really focused purely on 'can I dodge the ability' and/or 'what can I buy to counter this champion'. Both of those can be good types of counterplay certainly, tunnel visioning only on those risks ignoring a lot of other good options though.

It really feels like Meddler actually has no idea about counterplay. After latest nasus changes (not that lately but the last changes done to him, ult activation halving Q cooldown and E shredding % armor not flat armor) + his klepto abuse lately the tactics you used to shut him down are not that effective anymore. To 1v1 or even 1v2 as Nasus with ease you need just around 150 stacks and you can have just defensive items like ninja tabi into AD matchups etc. What your ult does is basically making the amount of stacks you have doubled for the duration and considering Q is an auto resets and it can be used twice as many times during ult duration it also doubles your auto attack damage output. And I myself experienced it as well as saw other experience this: Nasus can't really be set behind. I was sitting my top laner and gave him 4 kills advantage. For nasus it was nothing. When I was busy helping bot lane Nasus just built some resistance and straight up 1v1 my top laner by simply walking up to him - once more quoting Meddler

keeping distance from him

Sorry, but it doesnt work. His wither literally stuns you and is on too low cooldown. You cant keep distance because he walks up to you and kills you. His slow will always be better than any cc you throw at him to kite and stop him from Qing you to death. There is also not much windows to fight him. and this is a problem with many champions now like ornn etc. Too low cooldowns too much impact on low cooldown abilities.

Azir laning pattern.

I think it helped, in particular giving some champs better ways to lane effectively against it. I'm not sure if it went far enough necessarily though, could be we've just got the tuning off, but a well played Azir's still pretty tough to deal with."

Some champions were helped, but Azir still remains very oppresive to lane against. Even as long range mage like Xerath or ziggs it doesnt feel like your range gives you an advantage vs azir.

His answer on bruisers keystone:

Still being worked on. We want to make something that's a good choice on bruisers but not solely for them. Version we've been testing however looks like it'd be too generically good on most champs though, so we'll need to take another pass at it, tailor it somewhat more towards champs who need sustained damage and are at least somewhat tanky.

Sorry to be rude, but you knew bruisers are shit for quite a long time in pre-season. It feels again like Riot dictating meta and not liking brining back struggling bruisers. Plus what is even worse in what he said: "something that's a good choice on bruisers but not solely for them". Basically every class has keystone for them that is defenitely too strong or really strong. While current iteration of bruiser keystone changes turned to be too good on most champs they still aim for it to be used by other classes as well. In my opinion there should be pure bruisers keystone.

Shields in game:

I think some form of outlet item to shield stacking would be valuable. We've been working on one on and off as mentioned a while back, it hasn't been a priority compared to getting other stuff sorted out though (pre-season follow up in particular). Still expecting we'll do so in the earlier part of this year, priority's been lower though given 'people don't die fast enough' hasn't generally been the prevailing sentiment (with the exception of some specific tanks in particular)."

People die fast enough, but it is usually due to one of the team not having shields or having less shields than the other team. Basically every support goes for solari, redemption (soon face of the mountain will be removed, but for now it is here). Tank supports can take the rune that gives shield after taking dmg. Supports like lulu, nami, janna have aery. Support items give too many heal+shield power. It should be turned into unique passive so you can't stack shield power from different items, considering that you mostly have AP in those items plus from frost quinn item and it further amplyfies shields. Before the changes, enchanting supports had to choose between utility, cdr or AP. So either more shields and poke dmg from AP item or more utility, durability and better cooldowns. Now everything is packed in each item. So in my opinion shields and heals stay a problem. I'm really bored seeing enemy adc getting shielded for his entire hp bar, healed from summoner spell heal, healed from athenes and ability e.g. janna ult, healed from redemption, shielded from basica abilities plus aery as well as from solari, and eventually healed from mikeals crucible. All your team cooldowns gone for cooldowns of one champion from enemy team.

Meddler has also stated just this about Vayne:

Vayne has nerfs in 8.2.

That's it. He feels like it's enough. The problem is vayne doesnt really need ult to deal damage she already deals. She can Q auto for more than half of your hp with IE and shiv, without ult bonus damage. If she crits 3 autos with these items you are likely dead as squishy. Ult damage bonus nerf isn't the way to make her in-line. Overall the whole ADC items should be nerfed in cost or stats.

While with ADC's let's talk about klepto abuser Ezreal. He is hated by players a lot. He seriously abuses klepto, thats a fact and I won't be even denying it, but I and many other people were mentioning that klepto should be put in line or Ezreal himself shouldnt be able to proc klepto from Q and that could fix the problem as before klepto he was basically non existant in adc and moved to the jungled only because of Q AD ratio buff. Unfortunately both klepto and Ezreal getting nerfed and beside getting his powerspike fast due to klepto, he still can't match 2 crit items vayne, tristana, xayah or rageblade varus, kog. Mostly those adcs having lulu by their side or leona/alistar. Ezreal is still getting outscaled like before. He just gets items faster and that allows him to be really strong untill enemy adcs get their core items and then Ezreal falls off like a truck falling from a cliff. His Q has oppresive poke early and Riot is nerfing it. He can win lane by having few good Qs, but you can actually play behind minions, but let's leave at that, this nerf should be go through to make him less oppressive. If he is getting butchered early I believe getting his AD ratio buff back to make him stronger later would be appropriate or Riot should make his W usefull not only in AP builds but AD well. e.g. Instead just giving AS to units he hits, he gets attack speed from attacking enemies marked by W or bonus dmg instead of attack speed on his Qs.

Now for the Jinx thoughts:

Jinx - Some buffs in 8.2, likely paired with some compensatory nerfs in other places so she doesn't go too nuts.

Fair change. She was bad for quite some time, but the buffs are actually nuts. I would rather prefer to either make her Q AS scale with Q level or buff AS bonus, not giving her both, but if she gets compansated in case then feels fair.

Illaoi thoughts:

Illaoi - Yep, she's pretty impactful and getting a lot of play at present. Having said that you give up a lot of tools by picking someone like Illaoi instead of champs with more mobility and/or CC, so so far at least she doesn't seem too overbearing overall (not that it feels that way when you're getting ulted of course)

He has some points here and there. Illaoi can be outplayed in teamfights, but her laning should be more oppresive. Any meele champ is literally in no poistion to fight her. E.g. lvl 1 all she does is W every 4 seconds and getting that juicy klepto bonuses. While she somehow has window of opportunity when she misses her E, she still has quite a lot of damage and tools to outtrade you even without hitting E and considering she rushes BC the cooldown won't be that long. Some of her lane oppresive patterns could get some work, though I hope klepto nerfs will fix that.

Malzahar:

Malz Q - we were originally looking to nerf his W damage against minions. After testing that we concluded it didn't nerf his pushing power that much, given the rest of his kit. Did make his CSing with them quite a bit more awkward though, which felt really poor. Went with a Q nerf instead as a pretty straight forward way of taking some direct damage out of Malz especially when he's doing well. At a 0.65 AP ratio with AOE silence confident it should still be impactful and satisfying.

Sorry but this nerf will acomplish nothing. The root of a problem is mainly malzahar passive and his ability to walk up to you with point and click E and deal free dmg without enemy being able to answer to that or fight back. His ult getting nerfed too if not already got nerfed, but Malzahar is still a problem, being often picked and banned, giving his team a lot of power, because laning phase is very easy to win as malzahar and his presence alone forces champions that doesnt benefit form that path to build QSS asap.

These are my thoughts. I hope some Rioter see this and address the issues that should be addressed long ago. Let's hope for that and I hope the disccussion about that matter will be beneficial for us all.