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Discussing the counterplay (or lack thereof) of Camille's ultimate.

Astôlfo·1/14/2017, 2:31:54 PM·4 votes·1,471 views

Disclaimer: I just want healthy discussion. I just want to see what people think. Upvotes for more attention for more discussion would be nice.

Well technically, by that standard, every single point-and-click targeted ability is no counterplay. The only way to avoid it is through a spell shield (Banshee's or Edge of Night, or spellshields in a kit like Sivir or Nocturne's), Fiora's Riposte, or untargetability.

And in comparison to the other point-and-clicks which either deal damage and/or CC instantaneously, Camille's has a lot more counterplay of sorts.

She becomes untargetable for a moment yes. But after that, besides the boundary around the edge, absolutely nothing has changed. Her ultimate itself doesn't CC you or damage you.

Yes her ultimate knocks back your allies. That knockback has also been nerfed to a set 1s instead of until she lands or whatever it used to be. It doesn't prevent them from walking back in. It doesn't take that long to walk back in.

And unless Camille builds full glass cannon AD, she can't 100-0 you in that brief period. And if she does build like that, she'd immediately die after. Because the only thing she'd have enough time for before your teammates walk back in at most is Q1 and an immediate non-truedamage Q2.

What it does punish is carries being dumbasses and wandering off by themselves or having bad positioning.

I don't really see how this is all too different from any other assassin or fighter/skirmisher/etc who could do the same. If you're out of position and a Shyvana or Fiora or LeBlanc or any other champion like that finds you, it's extremely unlikely you'd get away even with Flash.

The only difference is it explicitly makes the inescapable boundary while with the other champions, there is no explicitly visually created boundary. There still is an implicit boundary from which it's almost guaranteed you wouldn't escape from them though, if you were out of position.

What do you all think about this?

8 Comments

Yago1/14/2017, 3:20:09 PM3 votes

That's true within the larger point of the game. And the ability itself, I think, is perfectly fine. It's the kit it's attached to.

The fact that she possess such an amazing base stat spread, even after all the nerfs to said base stats, and has a kit that plays like the second coming of the Crocodile Messiah, I mean, Renekton Bar might have a lot to do with the complaints about her R.

She's absurdly strong in the laning phase, capable of diving in and getting off a stun, three auto-attacks, multiple Sheen procs, all while mitigating a significant chunk of your damage either through her passive or her W's heal, and then walking away to safety. That's difficult enough to grapple with, but then she has the ability to press the 'All-In' button, and you're immediately forced to duel her. And against any half-decent Camille, that button means death without an ally nearby.

You can kite someone like Garen or Darius, who are exceptionally good at repeatedly eviscerating their lane opponent once they get a lead, or even just stay away from their engage range, but that's far more difficult when Camille can leap over thick walls on a minuscule cooldown and has a decent ranged powerful slow, a haste, and another gap closer from the I-Win, I mean All-In button.

Unless I'm mis-remembering, you cannot Flash at all under Camille's ultimate, not just being incapable of using Flash to escape it.

If that is the case, then that, in and of itself, is quite a lot of power that I think goes unnoticed. If Camille used her ultimate in such a position that a Flash-able wall, and a small amount of area on the other side of it, was within the zone, being able to Flash over it and buy time for the effect to end would be quite a nice decision that is, as I said, if memory serves, presently impossible.

Big Lincoln1/14/2017, 3:24:47 PM3 votes

Let's not beat around the bush

it needs to disappear immediately when she dies inside her ult

Möral Support1/14/2017, 2:53:34 PM2 votes

Her ultimate is not that amazing. You can CC her or just take her out of the ultimate's zone and it goes away immediately.

Chembaron Yamada1/14/2017, 3:21:05 PM1 votes

Just because you can't avoid getting hit because it is point and click, doesn't mean it has no counterplay. Counterplay is reducing the effectiveness of something with specific actions, too.

Your options for counterplay:

  1. Throw her out of the cage to cancel it.
  2. Kite her (maybe using a slow) inside of the cage. It doesn't snare you, moving will mitigate her damage (especially if you can deny her secod Q procc).
  3. Snare/stun her right after ulting and move to the edge. She is not able to touch you for that time. (4. Straight up fight her. Her ult doesn't provide much damage so there are many champions able to outduel her. No real counterplay though.)

And like you said, it is counterplay to stay in a group, too. That applies to almost every diver. They are a huge killing threat with great engage. If you are a squishy walking around solo, chances are you are going to die. Doesn't matter if I am Camille, Vi or Diana. Staying in a group and good positioning is the counterplay for Rengar's changed R, too. Still people complain that "it has no counterplay", but that is absolutely not true. People just have to accept that positioning and teamplay can be counterplay.

Shuyin1781/14/2017, 8:15:14 PM1 votes

I find Tahm Kench to be a very good counter to her ult. Put on 3 stacks, then W to spit her out of it ending the ult. As for laning against her, he isn't bad at all with his Q W E doing a lot of work if she tries to all-in him because she can't straight burst him like other champions.