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Why Zoe's RNG is actually BAD RNG

Werwar··75 votes·4,674 views

There is a lot of talk about Zoe recently, and yesterday meddler released a "gameplay thoughts" where he touched on the RNG aspect and their stance on it. They see Zoe's RNG as fine because they say you can play around it.

I disagree. Which I will explain to you with the following examples.

PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS OP. I really do not care about her powerlevel in this post, PURELY the RNG part of her kit.

Im going to be talking in hypothetical situations here:

Lets say KT is playing VS SKT. Faker locks in Zoe. KT's jungler (score) is one Elise. Elise is looking to get pawn on viktor ahead early, so he scale or whatever. Doesnt really matter. Elise does standard 2 buffs into camps route and is aiming to gank mid. A bubbled minion spawns. Score has 2 options. Respect the bubbles potential to drop a free escape and not go for the gank, or go for the gank anyway and risk wasting time. No matter which option he chooses, the rng has already influenced the game here in a way he can not play around. If the bubble spawns a cleanse, flash, he wasting his time for the gank and cannot go for it, because there is a bigger chance that he is wasting his time to basically gain nothing. If it was spawns a favorable spell/active than Zoe got a FREE gank escape because of the RNG. Maybe in 9/10 situations she will get bad spawns or no bubbles at all and not get a free escape, but this time she does, and its an important game so thats all that matters. Viktor is not in a position to deny her the bubble, and even if he was, the amount of pressure he has to exert in lane or the amount of pressure that is relieved from him, is again, decided by the RNG.

Maybe if they played this matchup 100 times, Viktor wins lane 70 times because lets just say that he is a better viktor player than faker is a zoe player. 30% of those games he will not win lane, because Zoe gets lucky summoner drops. (these stats are just an example, in my opinion if zoe wins even 1% of lanes because of lucky summoner drops than it is too much)

And im not even talking about redemptions map impact, or gunblade giving you a free health advanatage (goodluck zoning her from it, if she picks it up she wins the trade and you cant remove the bubbles)

  • With elemental drakes there is a 6 minute timer ahead of what its going to be. It can still fuck you over, if you draft a lategame team vs an early game team and they get 3 fires which you cant really contest, tough luck. But AT LEAST you get 6 minutes prep time, so perhaps you can get advantages elsewhere, or look to play around it.

  • With crit you are always going to take damage, if it crits or not.

Neither of those have the impact zoes rng has. 3 fire drakes is huge but games can be decided before they really get into effect. Zoe's rng has huge impact from the moment she levels it, potentially. A lucky crit will not allow you to impact the entire map as much zoes rng does.

Zoe's bubble spawns instantly and creates pressure. It could be useless, it could be great, you dont know, and what it is going to drop will affect your playstyle, but you dont know till it drops. And even if you did know, you will get situations where its "oh great, I cant all in zoe because theres an ignite bubble entering lane so its making it much more risky"

TL;DR, Zoe's RANDOM drops are BAD RNG, I explained why.

I love Riot as a company. I like Zoe's design and theme. I hate the RNG and its impact, and I hope Riot will change their mind on this.

79 Comments

Jet Sett49 votes

I genuinely feel her W should be castable and to get rid of all these bubbles and item active drops. It feels pretty shit that by building an active item you essentially give it to the enemy team as well, and it's already bad enough to have a champion that blatantly gets excused on the power of summoner spells.

Flash feels pretty shit when your enemy laner gets a free one because you used your own. Congrats! They have long cooldowns for a reason, but here comes a champion that literally punishes you directly for it, not because you misused it, but because you just USED it.

Gear5Luffy5 votes

or make them weaker spells and lower cd for summoner spells like 10 sec for flash or 15 sec for tp

Jet Sett2 votes

I originally thought Riot knew to make free summoners spells and item actives weaker than normal, but I definitely agree that should be the case.

SweedishGunner30 votes

Yeah Zoe is just poorly designed in every aspect.

OmarmohyThinker6 votes

Pun intended?

SweedishGunner1 votes

:^)

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah Zoe is just poorly designed in every aspect.

She isnt really poorly designed. She just has the CertainlyT anime protagonist shit going on, where shit in the champ is always convi iently tuned to their favor.

Always a bunch of training wheels and tacked on power.

Over Innsmouth13 votes

So...poorly designed?

ChaddyFantome2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsMQ8FvP,comment-id=0003000100010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T00:22:22.400+0000)

So...poorly designed?

a champions design, i would boil down to their base concept and kit, as opposed to every facet, nuance and number value given to every aspect of the champion.

On paper, Zoe being this champ that repositions a lot with R and redirects shit for damage and picks up enemy sums is fine imo.

By contrast, Kalista is a champ id say is straight badly designed because her entire concept is Martial Poise and Rend, which is just ridiculous even on paper.

"Yea, lets give a champion free dashes in any direction on every auto and an infi itely stacking Twitch E, seems balanced"

Zoe can have her spells tweeked and numbers tuned and junk. Her kit itself is mostly fine.

By contrast, kalista needs to be rethought all together.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

First of all, using Kalista as a comparison kind of illustrates how poor Zoe's design is if you have to use one of the undeniably worst designs in the game as a reference point.

Amusingly, she's also a CertainlyT champion.

Secondly, Zoe's kit is pretty bad, even if you tweak numbers. There's a part of it that can make or break her laning, of which neither she nor her lane opponent (nor anyone else in the game) has any control over, since it's a random drop. Her whole kit is predicated around landing a single damage ability - so incredibly risk/reward, except the supporting kit around her Q makes it incredibly forgiving for her - from the low cooldown of her Q to the nature of her E, so low risk/high reward.

People have aptly pointed out that it's like old-old Nidalee's spears, it doesnt matter how many she throws, she only needs to hit one to kill you or remove you from the fight.

And that Nidalee was reworked for a reason. She was bad.

Dreamspitter2 votes

{quoted}

She isnt really poorly designed. She just has the CertainlyT anime pritagonist shit going on.

Always a bunch of training wheels and tacked on power.

Nah. Just make CertainlyT revamp ALL heroes. Problem solved.

Flawless balance achieved.

All characters are awesome.

hoyohai1 votes

And no one complains about them being anti-fun since they're having fun playing the champs

LadyRenly9 votes

If it was spawns a favorable spell/active than Zoe got a FREE gank escape because of the RNG

A "free" gank escape? It's literally her entire W ability. Fizz/Morgana has a constant "free" gank escape with their E. It's not free if you're entire ability revolves around only being able to be activated conditionally

Werwar30 votes

{quoted}

A "free" gank escape? It's literally her entire W ability. Fizz/Morgana has a constant "free" gank escape with their E. It's not free if you're entire ability revolves around only being able to be activated conditionally

Yes but then it is a part of their kit. You can rely on it. With Zoe you cant rely on anything, you never know, sometimes she is as free to gank as a lux, other times she is harder to gank than a leblanc, and you dont know till she kills the bubble minion and by then youve already invested time&resources

thats the problem, its randomly decided what she can do and what you can do about it

Baron of Bread4 votes

When she kills the bubble minion she then has to walk over and pick up the bubble (or ult over post 6). If she walks over to get it she is putting herself in danger. Sure, she might get a flash. But one flash won't make up the distance she has to walk to grab that summoner since it drops where the minion died. If you gank when you see that spell spawn you can still kill her since she either doesn't have the spell yet or has walked far enough into danger that it probably won't save her by itself.

JoeMG1 votes

{quoted}

Yes but then it is a part of their kit. You can rely on it. With Zoe you cant rely on anything, you never know, sometimes she is as free to gank as a lux, other times she is harder to gank than a leblanc, and you dont know till she kills the bubble minion and by then youve already invested time&resources

thats the problem, its randomly decided what she can do and what you can do about it

Doesn't it show next to her healthbar which ability she has up on her W? Maybe I'm thinking of something else.

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

It does, still doesn't help that she can randomly get flash out of a minion while your jungle was planning to come gank her only to not bother cause he saw her pick up flash.

Or when you just traded with zoe so she has to back now but wait, a minion just dropped teleport meaning she won't miss the dying minions xp/gold much at all or she can use that teleport to instantly gank bot lane after recalling.

So many possibilities that can happen BlessRNG.

fox only fd9 votes

Yeah. I like the idea of a sort of "all-or-nothing" champion with all her damage loaded into one skillshot, and in general most of Zoe 's kit is pretty unique and interesting. But the minion spell drops were unnecessary. Zoe 's W was already a cool, unique concept - stealing enemy summoner spells and items adds some interesting strategic options in fights. I feel like the minion RNG drops kinda ruin it.

Bob the Toastr18 votes

Zilean: Had all of his damage in one ability before it was cool

Kobold3 votes

AND Still has less damage than her while being the only TRUE champion to have a single damage ability while she has potentially 4 due to passive and potentially up to 3 if we ignore passive

flibitydoo1 votes

he has less damage than a lot of mages though. And zoe having damage sources from 4 points just sounds like you're grasping for reasons to call her out. So what, Jhin is busted as hell because he has 4 sources of damage from his Q alone? 12 if we count his E passive+active?

Also you don't pick zilsta midsta for his damage output though, it's more about having the ability to send literally anyone on your team to full health after they die.

Kobold2 votes

uh thats not why I pointed it out. Lots of players are saying zoe only has one damaging ability. Which is entirely incorrect thats what we were pointing out. Zilean IS the only Champion with only one damaging ability. When people are saying that Zoe is allowed so much damage and what some deem unfun mechanics due to "she only has one damaging ability" it is factually incorrect.

TequilaZombie1 votes

That's possibly the most sense a Kobold has ever made in history.

Kobold1 votes

?! lol

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. I like the idea of a sort of "all-or-nothing" champion with all her damage loaded into one skillshot, and in general most of Zoe 's kit is pretty unique and interesting. But the minion spell drops were unnecessary. Zoe 's W was already a cool, unique concept - stealing enemy summoner spells and items adds some interesting strategic options in fights. I feel like the minion RNG drops kinda ruin it.

Thats the problem with CertainlyT champs in generali feel.

Yasuo whats that? You need to land Tornado Q to Ult? No problem. Your teamates can get you an ulti for free if thwy have displacements.

Whats that? Need people to actually use actives and symmoners so you can steel em? No problem. We hand you a free sum or active every now and then.

His champs always seem to have training wheels on them for one reason or another, as if he afraid of giving these champs any real drawbacks because it would come at the cost of some percievrd "fun".

Zoe didnt need free sums on minion waves. Her damage is high enough on low enough CDs as is with Q and passive.

She also didnt need her E to leave behind a zone when she misses. Either make it a projectile similar to Lux E, or leave it as a singlr skillshot nuke.

Cowseed8 votes

A fix I think could work is making the bubbles content revealed when Zoe comes within a certain range of the minion. I say reveal it when she's in range so that if she's laning the oponent can determine how much resources they should put into denying her that spell and so that a lane doesn't that isn't hers spawns a free TP/redemtion etc that basically says "roam here"

Votable Jester2 votes

I'd be A-ok with that. No more wasting effort just to spawn a cleanse against Zed.

xxxDogmanxxx6 votes

DECISION TO GANK

Score has 2 options. Respect the bubbles potential to drop a free escape and not go for the gank, or go for the gank anyway and risk wasting time. No matter which option he chooses, the rng has already influenced the game here in a way he can not play around.

False. He can play around the fact that it's Zoe and go for a gank in a different lane. Respecting a strong Zoe and her W and not going for the gank because of the chance she might outplay me is already an example of the Jungler playing around it. That's the same as me not ganking a strong Akali because I think she has her W up and could outplay me. The bubbles are part of her W ABILITY, the same as any other champion. Why does Zoe and her abilities not deserve the same respect as any other champion?

Consequently, the decision to go for the gank isn't determined by the RNG of Zoe's bubbles either. It's determined by the judgement of the jungler, after seeing the situation that Zoe is in, whether she is overextended or not, and whether they have enough tools to kill her even accounting for her bubbles.

In both cases, Jungler would have had to make against any other champion anyway. The jungler would have had to ask the same question, "Can we get this enemy despite her abilities?" and would have decided based on their judgement anyway.

By Meddler's definition, "good RNG" allows players to show their adaptability, adding another type of skill test in addition to the others already present in the game (mechanical skill, coordination with team mates, etc). It can create unexpected situations that test quick thinking, allow unusual actions and can be really exciting.

Sounds to me like when it comes to the decision to gank, Zoe's Bubbles are actually GOOD RNG, not bad.

OUTCOME OF THE GANK

Viktor is not in a position to deny her the bubble, and even if he was, the amount of pressure he has to exert in lane or the amount of pressure that is relieved from him, is again, decided by the RNG.

Not really a fair point. If instead of Viktor, he was playing say Lucian mid, then he could easily deny Zoe's chance to get the bubble. Lane pressure is far less influenced by Zoe's RNG bubbles and far more by champion choice and player skill.

This entire scenario you gave isn't a good example of Zoe's bubbles being bad RNG, because your entire argument in this part basically rests on the assumption that Zoe's RNG bubbles would unreasonably determine the outcomes of ganks against her. But that scenario assumed the jungler would not have taken Zoe's abilities into account, and it assumed that somehow the laner himself could not contribute to the gank.

Even in the rare scenario that Zoe did get a last-second Flash / Cleanse / Barrier / Exhaust / etc and undeniably escaped a gank by using it, who's to say that the laner and the jungler couldn't have still succeeded if they had started the gank one second earlier, or what if one of them had the foresight to account for a last-second Flash after seeing the bubble and pre-empt it by placing a skill shot where she'd land?

WINNING LANE

Maybe if they played this match-up 100 times, Viktor wins lane 70 times because lets just say that he is a better viktor player than faker is a zoe player. 30% of those games he will not win lane, because Zoe gets lucky summoner drops.

You've shoe-horned your example to exemplify output randomness. I F this situation occurred that frequently, then yes, it'll be mostly luck-based, and that's bad RNG. But in the vast majority of cases, Zoe winning lane could occur due to any number of things, and most reasonably it would happen due to player skill, and assuming equal skill between both players, champion match-up.

In my opinion if Zoe wins even 1% of lanes because of lucky summoner drops, then it is too much.

Even in this scenario, the Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to USE the W. The summoner drops don't automatically use themselves. In which case, you can't really claim that Zoe winning lane in that scenario is entirely luck-based.

IMPACT OF ZOE'S RNG

It could be useless, it could be great, you don't know, and what it is going to drop will affect your playstyle, but you don't know till it drops. And even if you did know, you will get situations where its "Oh great, I can't all-in Zoe because there's an ignite bubble entering lane so its making it much more risky."

So what if you don't know? The point you are advocating is that it's bad RNG, which your statement doesn't prove at all. All it proves is that it I S RNG, but not whether it's good or bad RNG.

Anyway, Meddler already addressed this in his post, saying:

Occurrences of randomness are clearly telegraphed, minions are marked and the abilities they drop are guaranteed to spawn away from Zoe, ensuring it takes a bit more time for her to pick them up. Their impact is also based off how Zoe uses whatever she picks up, not the moment something drops."

He's right. As I've already said, Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to use the W. And if it just so happens that the drop rate of certain actives are causing stuations to turn more luck-based than intended, Meddler has already said they'll tune it.

TLDR: Most of your post keeps emphasizing that Zoe's bubbles are "bad RNG", but what you really mean is that Zoe's bubbles are "RNG that could be bad for Zoe's enemy."

LichKing2341 votes

all of this ^[sg-jinx]

JoeMG1 votes

{quoted}

DECISION TO GANK

False. He can play around the fact that it's Zoe and going for a gank in a different lane. Respecting a strong Zoe and her W and not going for the gank because of the chance she might outplay me is already an example of the Jungler playing around it. That's the same as me not ganking a strong Akali because I think she has her W up and could outplay me. The bubbles are part of her W ABILITY, the same as any other champion. Why does Zoe and her abilities not deserve the same respect as any other champion?

Consequently, the decision to go for the gank isn't determined by the RNG of Zoe's bubbles either. It's determined by the judgement of the jungler, after seeing the situation that Zoe is in, whether she is overextended or not, and whether they have enough tools to kill her even accounting for her bubbles.

In both cases, Jungler would have had to make against any other champion anyway. The jungler would have had to ask the same question, "Can we get this enemy despite her abilities?" and would have decided based on their judgement anyway.

By Meddler's definition, "good RNG" allows players to show their adaptability, adding another type of skill test in addition to the others already present in the game (mechanical skill, coordination with team mates, etc). It can create unexpected situations that test quick thinking, allow unusual actions and can be really exciting.

Sounds to me like when it comes to the decision to gank, Zoe's Bubbles are actually GOOD RNG, not bad.

OUTCOME OF THE GANK

Not really a fair point. If instead of Viktor, he was playing say Lucian mid, then he could easily deny Zoe's chance to get the bubble. Lane pressure is far less influenced by Zoe's RNG bubbles and far more by champion choice and player skill.

This entire scenario you gave isn't a good example of Zoe's bubbles being bad RNG, because your entire argument in this part basically rests on the assumption that Zoe's RNG bubbles would unreasonably determine the outcomes of ganks against her. But that scenario assumed the jungler would not have taken Zoe's abilities into account, and it assumed that somehow the laner himself could not contribute to the gank.

Even in the rare scenario that Zoe did get a last-second Flash / Cleanse / Barrier / Exhaust / etc and undeniably escaped a gank by using it, who's to say that the laner and the jungler couldn't have still succeeded if they had started the gank one second earlier, or what if one of them had the foresight to account for a last-second Flash after seeing the bubble and pre-empt it by placing a skill shot where she'd land?

WINNING LANE

You've shoe-horned your example to exemplify output randomness. I F this situation occurred that frequently, then yes, it'll be mostly luck-based, and that's bad RNG. But in the vast majority of cases, Zoe winning lane could occur due to any number of things, and most reasonably it would happen due to player skill, and assuming equal skill between both players, champion match-up.

Even in this scenario, the Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to USE the W. The summoner drops don't automatically use themselves. In which case, you can't really claim that Zoe winning lane in that scenario is entirely luck-based.

IMPACT OF ZOE'S RNG

So what if you don't know? The point you are advocating is that it's bad RNG, which your statement doesn't prove at all. All it proves is that it I S RNG, but not whether it's good or bad RNG.

Anyway, Meddler already addressed this in his post, saying:

He's right. As I've already said, Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to use the W. And if it just so happens that the drop rate of certain actives are causing stuations to turn more luck-based than intended, Meddler has already said they'll tune it.

TLDR: Most of your post keeps emphasizing that Zoe's bubbles are "bad RNG", but what you really mean is that Zoe's bubbles are "RNG that could be bad for Zoe's enemy."

Very well said. Since you can see what ability she has on her W, you can play around it just like any other ability.

As a jungle main, if I see Zoe has a flash to burn, I'm going to do my best to predict that when I go for a gank. Either that or I won't even attempt the gank depending on her position, that way I'm not wasting my time. You play around it just like you'd play around something like a Yas windwall.

I agree anything RNG is not great for a competitive game, but I think its kind of dumb how people act like Zoes W has no counterplay and makes or breaks entire games.

Werwar2 votes

{quoted}

DECISION TO GANK

False. He can play around the fact that it's Zoe and going for a gank in a different lane. Respecting a strong Zoe and her W and not going for the gank because of the chance she might outplay me is already an example of the Jungler playing around it. That's the same as me not ganking a strong Akali because I think she has her W up and could outplay me. The bubbles are part of her W ABILITY, the same as any other champion. Why does Zoe and her abilities not deserve the same respect as any other champion?

Consequently, the decision to go for the gank isn't determined by the RNG of Zoe's bubbles either. It's determined by the judgement of the jungler, after seeing the situation that Zoe is in, whether she is overextended or not, and whether they have enough tools to kill her even accounting for her bubbles.

In both cases, Jungler would have had to make against any other champion anyway. The jungler would have had to ask the same question, "Can we get this enemy despite her abilities?" and would have decided based on their judgement anyway.

By Meddler's definition, "good RNG" allows players to show their adaptability, adding another type of skill test in addition to the others already present in the game (mechanical skill, coordination with team mates, etc). It can create unexpected situations that test quick thinking, allow unusual actions and can be really exciting.

Sounds to me like when it comes to the decision to gank, Zoe's Bubbles are actually GOOD RNG, not bad.

OUTCOME OF THE GANK

Not really a fair point. If instead of Viktor, he was playing say Lucian mid, then he could easily deny Zoe's chance to get the bubble. Lane pressure is far less influenced by Zoe's RNG bubbles and far more by champion choice and player skill.

This entire scenario you gave isn't a good example of Zoe's bubbles being bad RNG, because your entire argument in this part basically rests on the assumption that Zoe's RNG bubbles would unreasonably determine the outcomes of ganks against her. But that scenario assumed the jungler would not have taken Zoe's abilities into account, and it assumed that somehow the laner himself could not contribute to the gank.

Even in the rare scenario that Zoe did get a last-second Flash / Cleanse / Barrier / Exhaust / etc and undeniably escaped a gank by using it, who's to say that the laner and the jungler couldn't have still succeeded if they had started the gank one second earlier, or what if one of them had the foresight to account for a last-second Flash after seeing the bubble and pre-empt it by placing a skill shot where she'd land?

WINNING LANE

You've shoe-horned your example to exemplify output randomness. I F this situation occurred that frequently, then yes, it'll be mostly luck-based, and that's bad RNG. But in the vast majority of cases, Zoe winning lane could occur due to any number of things, and most reasonably it would happen due to player skill, and assuming equal skill between both players, champion match-up.

Even in this scenario, the Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to USE the W. The summoner drops don't automatically use themselves. In which case, you can't really claim that Zoe winning lane in that scenario is entirely luck-based.

IMPACT OF ZOE'S RNG

So what if you don't know? The point you are advocating is that it's bad RNG, which your statement doesn't prove at all. All it proves is that it I S RNG, but not whether it's good or bad RNG.

Anyway, Meddler already addressed this in his post, saying:

He's right. As I've already said, Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to use the W. And if it just so happens that the drop rate of certain actives are causing stuations to turn more luck-based than intended, Meddler has already said they'll tune it.

TLDR: Most of your post keeps emphasizing that Zoe's bubbles are "bad RNG", but what you really mean is that Zoe's bubbles are "RNG that could be bad for Zoe's enemy."

It doesnt matter how you look at it, these are just examples. The rng could be bad for Zoe too but she CANNOT rely on her RNG to get an advantage, but the enemy player is supposed to rely on her not getting good RNG

Either way, doesnt matter who the benefactor is, it is bad RNG because you cant play around it nearly as much as other forms of RNG. By the time im ganking and she gets a lucky bubble ive already wasted my time, which is crucial in the early game.

You claim its "good" rng that her bubbles can luck her out of a gank, but you dont go on to explain why it is or how this is healthy in anyway

and i know why you didnt, because it isnt. This not rng you can play around, and even if you can, it has already had its impact into the game, decided by a diceroll, instead of playerskill.

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

You say:

Either way, doesnt matter who the benefactor is, it is bad RNG because you cant play around it nearly as much as other forms of RNG. By the time im ganking and she gets a lucky bubble ive already wasted my time, which is crucial in the early game.

Did you actually miss these parts of what I said, or did you choose to ignore them?

DECISION TO GANK

False. He can play around the fact that it's Zoe and going for a gank in a different lane. Respecting a strong Zoe and her W and not going for the gank because of the chance she might outplay me is already an example of the Jungler playing around it. That's the same as me not ganking a strong Akali because I think she has her W up and could outplay me. The bubbles are part of her W ABILITY, the same as any other champion. Why does Zoe and her abilities not deserve the same respect as any other champion?

Consequently, the decision to go for the gank isn't determined by the RNG of Zoe's bubbles either. It's determined by the judgement of the jungler, after seeing the situation that Zoe is in, whether she is overextended or not, and whether they have enough tools to kill her even accounting for her bubbles.

In both cases, Jungler would have had to make against any other champion anyway. The jungler would have had to ask the same question, "Can we get this enemy despite her abilities?" and would have decided based on their judgement anyway.

By Meddler's definition, "good RNG" allows players to show their adaptability, adding another type of skill test in addition to the others already present in the game (mechanical skill, coordination with team mates, etc). It can create unexpected situations that test quick thinking, allow unusual actions and can be really exciting.

Sounds to me like when it comes to the DECISION TO GANK, Zoe's Bubbles are actually GOOD RNG, not bad.

"Good RNG" creates unexpected situations that test quick thinking, allow unusual actions and can be really exciting. I said that when it comes to the DECISION TO GANK, Zoe's bubbles fall under good RNG.

You are literally disregarding huge chunks of counter-argument and trying to put words in my mouth just to further your narrative. Even now, you can't seem to grasp exactly what Good RNG and Bad RNG are. Unlike what you keep insisting, they have nothing to do with who receives the benefit.

I also said:

OUTCOME OF THE GANK

This entire scenario you gave isn't a good example of Zoe's bubbles being bad RNG, because your entire argument in this part basically rests on the assumption that Zoe's RNG bubbles would unreasonably determine the outcomes of ganks against her. But that scenario assumed the jungler would not have taken Zoe's abilities into account, and it assumed that somehow the laner himself could not contribute to the gank.

Even in the RARE scenario that Zoe did get a last-second Flash / Cleanse / Barrier / Exhaust / etc and undeniably escaped a gank by using it, who's to say that the laner and the jungler couldn't have still succeeded if they had started the gank one second earlier, or what if one of them had the foresight to account for a last-second Flash after seeing the bubble and pre-empt it by placing a skill shot where she'd land?

WINNING LANE

In the vast majority of cases, Zoe winning lane could occur due to any number of things, and most reasonably it would happen due to player skill, and assuming equal skill between both players, champion match-up.

"Bad RNG" is when in a situation (which by your own post is GANKING THE ZOE / WINNING LANE), it's the RNG that will often determine the outcome, not the decisions made after it.

I already showed that your entire scenario is a terrible example because your assumptions were unreasonably wrong. And obviously, everyone will agree that winning lane will much more often be determined by player skill and champion match-up.

So basically, YOUR ARGUMENTS WERE DISMANTLED and now you want to say:

It doesn't matter how you look at it, these are just examples.

That's ridiculous.

Kaptain Kuddles3 votes

I think the issue with Zoe is not so much the fact that they have RNG incorporated into her kit, but there has been little in the way to explain what abilities are available at what points in the game - the lack of information about her current RNG is the problem.

When you take a champion such as Kindred that has innate RNG built into the stacking mechanic, I feel like Riot eventually learned that this needed to be adjusted to offer not only power to the player but also provide the other team with information as to how she may move through the game in order to obtain those stacks.

Zoe needs to have certain abilities gated by the length of the game, removing oppressive summoners such as flash / teleport until after the 6-8 minute mark. Allowing for a heal or an exhaust should be relatively less oppressive in the long term. I still think that a very skilled player can utilize the sleepy bubble a little too easily in order to poke out or kill an enemy laner.

As long as a solution is found that provides information to both the player and the opposing team allowing some semblance of counter play that promotes skill on both sides of the rift I think Zoe is a smashing success.

Werwar6 votes

[{quoted}](name=NF Kuddles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsMQ8FvP,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-14T15:25:07.879+0000)

I think the issue with Zoe is not so much the fact that they have RNG incorporated into her kit, but there has been little in the way to explain what abilities are available at what points in the game - the lack of information about her current RNG is the problem.

When you take a champion such as Kindred that has innate RNG built into the stacking mechanic, I feel like Riot eventually learned that this needed to be adjusted to offer not only power to the player but also provide the other team with information as to how she may move through the game in order to obtain those stacks.

Zoe needs to have certain abilities gated by the length of the game, removing oppressive summoners such as flash / teleport until after the 6-8 minute mark. Allowing for a heal or an exhaust should be relatively less oppressive in the long term. I still think that a very skilled player can utilize the sleepy bubble a little too easily in order to poke out or kill an enemy laner.

As long as a solution is found that provides information to both the player and the opposing team allowing some semblance of counter play that promotes skill on both sides of the rift I think Zoe is a smashing success.

I dont think it really solves it though.

Perhaps you are playing against a splitpusher and his team is doing the classic splitpush+doing baron, with tp on their splitpusher incase your team engages. Then your Zoe gets a teleport drop, and can ruin that entire strategy because of a random drop. Wheras in the next game, youre in the same situation but zoe doesnt get a teleport drop, and you lose.

So the RNG is deciding who gains the advantage here, instead of player skill.

Kindred had RNG which I also didnt like but the thing with her old system was, if you go to the enemy raptors side theres a 66% chance it spawns on either raptors or scuttle. And you could influence later marks by killing camps so for example you kill their krugs and raptors so now it has to spawn blue side, you could very much play around it.

Zoe gets the drops and they can have impact instantly :/

Baron of Bread2 votes

If the Zoe gets a TP the question to ask is where is she on the map when she gets it since she had to be killing minions somewhere. Unless she was already where the split push was happening, she would find it difficult to make good use of that TP. If she was where the split push was happening the enemy team had a 4v4 to work with while the split pusher should be able to 1v1 the Zoe without too much trouble and could turn that 4v4 into a 4v5. If she already had the TP while the enemy got the split push started it is the enemies' own fault, since they could probably wait out the 1 minute that Zoe has that TP.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I really agree with zoe's RNG beeing bad, however:

With crit you are always going to take damage, if it crits or not.

Neither of those have the impact zoes rng has.

No sire, just no. Crit is a way more imactfull mechanic than zoe's just because of how common it is, and there is a MASSIVE difference between takeing 100% damage or takeing 250% damage from an attack. Crit is very powerfull and impactfull stat, and it beeing RNG is one of the worst things in league ever. Amongst all the RNG in this game, Crit is by far the worst!

As for zoe, her W is a bullshit abillity even without the RNG, as it punishes players for doing the right thing. Gunblade is part of your core built and burstrptation? Well, if you face zoe, you just give her a free active with bonus on top. Go all in and naturally use your ignite? Now Zoe gets to ignite you to. It just makes you feel bad about doing things that under every other circumstances would be the right call, just becuase she fucking exists.

FurriesAreHot6 votes

I think you understood this wrong. He is saying crit is going to harm you anyway, just a bit more. Where as Zoe might have an exhaust ready to drop, or might have a flash. In the early lab in phase her W is too impactful and unpredictable.

Sire Hippington3 votes

dealing doulbe or with IE even more than double damage for me exeeds 'just a bit more', especially since it can happen **on any AA at any time **without warning. With zoe, you see when somnething will drop, then you see what drops and then you can adjust how you approach her, and the rng drop comes only once every few waves, and she needs to pick it up so with zone controll you can denie it from her or punish her. Vs crit, you always have to either expect some crits and treat them as a bigger threat than they should be for the goldvalue put in items, or you risk it, eat a crit to much and die.

FlameHalbrdOkido2 votes

Additionally I find it strange that Zoe's passive doesn't get the fair counter play that many other champs with similar set ups do.

Examples: Poppy Poppy's passive: when she throws her Buckler it bounces to a random location, she can run to it to pick it up and gain a shield. The enemy can step on it to destroy it and deny her.

Zyra Zyra's passive: randomly produces plants in the area around her that grant sight and she can use her abilities on Enemies can step on them to destroy them and deny her

Theres are the only examples that i could remember. But the theme is the same. Both are passives that generate something on the map that the champ benefits from that the enemy doesn't want them to have. Both passives are uncontrollable, as in neither the person playing the champ nor the enemy knows where the objects will appear they only know when. The difference is that once Zoe has access to the object that she wants to use, no one can really deny her from getting to it, as she has the mobility necessary to get it and get away. Whereas for the other two the enemy has a fair chance at stopping them...so whats up with that?

Similar things can be said for Bard's W: Caretaker's shrine and Rek'Sai's E: Tunnel, they can be taken away by the enemy as a form of counterplay. Zoe's minion RNG violates exactly what Riot said they don't like about RNG, the decision has already been made by the game and theres not much u can do about it, just sit there and watch as it happens.

Riot I dont care even if u allow Enemies to step on the spell to destroy. GET RID OF MINION RNG and JUST make it the BASE spell.

PLEASE!!

PurpleKingCrazy1 votes

Free summoner spells definitely doesn't feel free to me. I consider Zoe worse than Taliyah because Zoe doesn't have that utility to support her playstyle and she could get punished for no good reason other than how well you play her or the trade within. Playing against Zoe, she doesn't have that much engage to her ability other than relying on that champion falling asleep in time to damage the champion heavily (clearly her design aspect). She doesn't quite have the cc unlike Annie or Leblanc and Taliyah can do so much more than those two. Like Taliyah, she can get punished heavily once she steps a foot in the wrong territory of her enemy, and there's nothing she can do about it.

Yea, I think her W definitely needs a change somewhere for starters. I actually don't see anything wrong with her kit other than her W. Zoe

Taliyah

crzymdscntst2 votes

She relies on getting those casts because of her W activation damage. It shouldn't matter what those casts are, but that she can cast them.

PurpleKingCrazy1 votes

True. Most of the time I did feel like her Q did most of the work and her W did absolutely nothing. Maybe because I was playing it wrong or whatever. I guess this was most of my excuse because I didn't play her enough or really hate the champion. Sure, I never had that kind of interest (after seeing her lore) but I did play her and she's pretty good at what she does. Maybe by then I say that I may play her more and maybe I would judge that correctly. I just don't feel it as much.

I forgot about her E as well. She often relies on someone to fall into her trap and she can burst down that champion reliably. But that was not the point I was about to make as much as I wanted to. I mean, her Q can do so much damage as Zilean's bombs and burst them or do as much as one of Annie's spells, but in terms of reliability (which I was actually could have said from the beginning) I say Taliyah was still a better mage but I guess she's a different mage in general. I guess she's kinda better than Annie I would say. There.

crzymdscntst1 votes

E is WAY better on TT. Those long walls (primarily top walls) give her a really hilarious threat range when she's running bottom. A second out of lane to fire one off locks down the enemy laner. On the other hand, her E relies on the awareness of teammates, otherwise you lose a certain "OOMPH!"

Most importantly is how it applies. It's TRUE DAMAGE. Basically. It's also really cool if you're support, since that damage feeds into your ally's ability to burst. Ideally it should be more impactful without the initial threat, but it's pretty beefed up and with a full-range Q, that's some pretty serious damage.

PurpleKingCrazy1 votes

I don't really base things of damage alone, but I get what you're saying. However, I don't reliably see Zoe work out in a way of supporting except when she gets around her W (utility aspect) first. Come late game I think she will get beat more often than one thinks but she could reliably roam around and become more of a nuisance. I could see ups and down of it working but I mostly think I see more downs than ups actually.

At least I could try it one day and see the reflection of that. For now I do state my opinion as such.

crzymdscntst1 votes

I imagine she'll do much better based on the team composition. For example the sporadic nature of being paired with Bard might actually create some very interesting situations that would be hard to play against. Bard R> Zoe E> Zoe Q> Bard Q (The lockdown would be rage-inducing. Forget the damage.)

rtbf2256182411 votes

That's not how you do a TL;DR.

Apparently Noob3 votes

lmao that reminds me of the Hell's Kitchen episode with Gordon Ramsey where he tries to get that one army guy to explain what his teammates did wrong and the dude's just all

"Yeah we didn't do so well. They know what they did wrong."

GR: "You donkey I asked you what you thought they did wrong."

"Yeah there were improvements to be made, they know what they did wrong."

xd

ArcTrickster1 votes

By that logic, the crit mechanic is also bad. Facing a Tryndamere who passively gets critical strike chance from level 1 can be catastrophic if he can luck out and crit you twice. Imagine going for a short trade and he crits twice, essentially getting 4 autos out instead of 2. In the hands of a good player, that lane is already becoming way easier and generally generate a big advantage.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

Many people have made the case for crit being bad for the game in the past. Many post suggesting removing it from the game for the same reason they removed dodge % chance from the game.

The only slight difference is you know Tryn can do damage, or a LOT of damage, but if youre prepared for the LOT damage then you can go in, and if you arent then you back off. Its just damage, may be more than you expected, may be normal, but its just damage.

Zoe howerver... will she be able to double flash? Flash + Heal? Ignite you, just cause she can? Will she get a gunblade burst plus slow and chain it into an E, Q rotation? Every one of those bubbles represents a different problem to be dealt with, and a champions arsenal of abilities changing from one minute to the next is a whole other level than they may get extra damage from their auto attacks.

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