Stop nerfing DoT mages; nerf deathfire touch (the actual problem)

Varqaaa·12/2/2015, 6:38:31 PM·115 votes·7,908 views

tl;dr: Deathfire Touch broke Brand Swain Malz and Anivia, so instead of nerfing them nerf DT properly. I'd suggest making DT apply only on the first instance of damage from a DoT.

There are nerfs on PBE to DT, but the nerfs to the champions DT made problematic have not been reverted.

  1. Riot introduces something that breaks certain champions
  2. Riot fixes this thing that breaks certain champions
  3. Riot proceeds to nerf the champions anyways ????????

Furthermore, the present set of nerfs to DT on the PBE do not address the issue. It is has been pushed away from being a viable choice for non-DoT mages, while not properly addressing the interaction with DoT spells.

Riot has pushed nerfs to Brand, Swain, Malzahar, and Anivia to the PBE lately. This is presumably in response to the large jumps in winrate these champions have received due to the recent mastery reworks, particularly the synergy between DoT spells and the Deathfire Touch mastery.

Their is nothing inherently overbearing in the kit of any of these champions. All four exemplify what Riot has often referred to as the Talon effect; small, dedicated playerbases experiencing success on a champion because of their familiarity with the champion. Aside from Anivia (who came into the competitive scene for her strength at containing juggernauts), none see competitive play. They were all perfectly acceptable champions until the mastery rework pushed them into the OP range.

Instead of nerfing these five champions and alienating their very small playerbases, why not just fix the root of the problem: the interaction between DoT spells and Deathfire. It is very tangibly this interaction that has given these champions such a spike in power and popularity.

No Brand/Swain/Malz/Anivia players were asking for buffs and now these champions are being nerfed because Riot decided to meddle with the mastery system. Instead of making sweeping changes (removing a huge chunk of Swain's range, slashing Malzahar's tank melting ability (he's one of the only tank-shredding APs left! With the prevalence of juggernauts, midlane needs to keep this answer!), etc) to all these champions... simply fix the broken part of the system. Deathfire Touch.

I would suggest applying Deathfire Touch only on the first application of damage from a spell to balance the problem. This would turn the interaction between Malz E + DT into the same one as Vlad Q + DT, thus fixing the problem.

Thank you for your consideration.

116 Comments

Lee Belardo12/2/2015, 6:43:07 PM32 votes

This. A million times this. The crit mastery was nerfed instead of Yasuo and Tryndamere, so why not follow the same example?

Catastrop12/2/2015, 7:06:41 PM18 votes

Then they'll leave the nerfed champions to stew with no compensation.

Surr20plz12/2/2015, 9:50:17 PM12 votes

Welcome to Riot Game Balance Philosophy 101!

  1. Nerf the champ

  2. Nerf the Item/skill/etc that made the champ op.

  3. Never revert the nerf to the champ because reasons aka to admit we're wrong would be to undo the very fabric of creation itself.

slippykitten12/2/2015, 9:31:07 PM6 votes

First they will nerf all dot mages, then they will nerf dft, thenall dot mages will sit in the trashcan for 2 years. Why oh why Riot refuses to nerf the actual problems before gutting champions, ill never know. Why they wont revert champ nerfs after having to eventually nerf the problem as well, I'll also never know.

Kitten of Evil12/2/2015, 7:14:20 PM5 votes

No Brand/Swain/Malz/Anivia players were asking for buffs and now these champions are being nerfed because Riot decided to meddle with the mastery system

YES. Thank you. Also you offer a decent solution:

applying Deathfire Touch only on the first application of damage from a spell to balance the problem

Doctor Jarvis12/2/2015, 6:52:06 PM3 votes

I'm just going to leave this here... Deathfire Touch [Ferocity- Tier 6] [Damage changed] Base Damage changed to [8 + 50% bonus AD & 20% AP over 4 seconds] from [6 + 50% bonus AD & 20% AP over 3 seconds] [Duration changed] Burn Duration for Single target increased to 4 seconds from 3 seconds. Burn Duration for AoE increased to 2 seconds from 1.5 seconds Burn Duration for damage over time decreased to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.

RamboDash1512/3/2015, 4:18:23 PM3 votes

Warwick is strong with item 3930 ? Better nerf Warwick item 3930 is still strong? Nerf it! Warwick "Can I get my nerfs reverted?"

No

#Ritologic

(same for Sejuani and item 1409 )

ZzEslIolZQ12/3/2015, 1:31:54 AM2 votes

don't worry after they gut those champs they'll nerf deathfire "terrible decision gj ghostcrawler for the shit WoW masteries" touch.

Illiad12/3/2015, 10:24:05 PM2 votes

Malzahar Dot will live on

Psyturkey12/3/2015, 8:15:44 PM2 votes

As a Malzahar main:

The nerf he got basically didn't even matter. His W is the last skill you max and even having access to DFT is a power boost from where he was at before 5.22 (which was like 55% win rate). The only reason Malzahars win rate isn't higher is because he's not actually that good at dealing with Tanks despite his %HP damage, when tanks are nerfed into line he'll be able to deal with them again and he'll be fine.

Before people shit down my throat about Malz not being that good at dealing with Tanks: -He is immobile and therefore struggles against hard engage. -Unless extremely ahead he can not 100-0 a full tank past the mid game. -Tanks are crazy strong right now.

Vigilwake12/5/2015, 8:08:56 AM1 votes

It's not just the dot mages its players too. Everyone is running Deathfire do to its AD and Ap ratio on it give a ignite effect to some degree and then thunderlord burst makes so ever AD champ can do even more burst. It just kind of a welp I wanted to have fun but you pick Deathfire or Thunderlord so you want to win try hard style. While the other three offensive ones are just ok or not even useful. Stormrider surge when can you be sure that you will deal 30% of their health and then you want to chase after them....I think they're an item for the Phage or even the boots red enchant. Then the other two Warlords and Fervor first one you need crits and a lot of them to make it useful and the other grant a small boost to AD damage over as you attack to about 8 AD which is at level 18 while DF gives you that boost in damage every time you attack a target. Everyone give RIOT a slow clap. They could have made keystones for each of the types of champs or roles but instead we get. One crit based, one dual ish based, a OP second hand ignite, phage's slower cousin, and a smite for burst champs. This doesn't even count the defensive ones which only two of them are good the middle is just a filler IE "Strength of Ages which only gives around 300 plus health.

Erockandroll12/2/2015, 6:50:44 PM1 votes

DFT sets the base line for DoT mages. (and probably mages in general) They could probably nerf it if mages were, in general, way to strong. But even with 4 champs named, that's not really enough to say that mages (or even DoT mages) are in general too strong.

Also, if they later found out that these fringe cases are still good, using a different mastery, then Nerfing DFT would not change anything, all while putting a lot more champs in a weaker spot.

Riot isn't going to nerf DFT in a way that makes it generally bad. (but they did nerf it's synergy with DoT) mostly because mages have few options outside of DFT. (I really don't want to put 18 in the cunning tree just to get Thunderlord's)

Billy VoHagen12/3/2015, 5:24:57 AM1 votes

DFT is such shit on most everyone it doesn't deserve a nerf. Brand has been strong for quite a while, same with Swain and Anivia, just not many people knew about it.

dr lichdeath12/3/2015, 10:19:57 AM1 votes

or just remove deathfire grasp and give us a new ap cdr item

MrWasjig12/3/2015, 11:49:50 AM1 votes

I've said it before and I'll say it again (even made an entire thread about it) but these changes are Cinderhulk all over again.

A change in the system makes some champions really strong. Riot nerfs Champions Riot then nerfs whatever made them strong Champions left in a nerfed state and weaker than before. (Perhaps not gutted but weaker regardless)

Llanite12/3/2015, 7:16:51 PM1 votes

Logic is flawed.

70 people use DFT, 4 of them become OP, if you nerf the thing, the other 66 become underpowered.

But yes, making it apply only on spell cast would solve all the problems

Subject 512/3/2015, 11:42:47 PM1 votes

Insert win rate bias here

Remember when Heimer was top win rate for several seasons.

And remember when Janna was top win rate for several seasons and still is.

And remember when Amumu was top win rate for severeal seasons and still is.

And rem- Oh I think I made my point.

Dororox712/4/2015, 2:46:52 AM1 votes

by nerfing the mention champions they're letting champs like Yasuo and any mid ad champs who goes for the warlord's bloodlust route to be stronger. they get 15% heals and 20% attack speed. When need mid champs like Malzahar Anivia Swain and Brand or else champs likeYasuo will dominate mid lane.

Saianna12/4/2015, 10:42:35 AM1 votes
  1. Riot introduces something that breaks certain champions
  1. Riot fixes this thing that breaks certain champions
  2. Riot proceeds to nerf the champions anyways ????????

That's other way around:

  1. Riot introduces something that breaks certain champions
  2. Riot proceeds to nerf the champions anyways
  3. Riot fixes this thing that breaks certain champions ????????