Stop nerfing DoT mages; nerf deathfire touch (the actual problem)

Varqaaa·Dec 2, 2015·115 votes·7,908 views

tl;dr: Deathfire Touch broke Brand Swain Malz and Anivia, so instead of nerfing them nerf DT properly. I'd suggest making DT apply only on the first instance of damage from a DoT.

There are nerfs on PBE to DT, but the nerfs to the champions DT made problematic have not been reverted.

Riot introduces something that breaks certain champions
Riot fixes this thing that breaks certain champions
Riot proceeds to nerf the champions anyways ????????

Furthermore, the present set of nerfs to DT on the PBE do not address the issue. It is has been pushed away from being a viable choice for non-DoT mages, while not properly addressing the interaction with DoT spells.

Riot has pushed nerfs to Brand, Swain, Malzahar, and Anivia to the PBE lately. This is presumably in response to the large jumps in winrate these champions have received due to the recent mastery reworks, particularly the synergy between DoT spells and the Deathfire Touch mastery.

Their is nothing inherently overbearing in the kit of any of these champions. All four exemplify what Riot has often referred to as the Talon effect; small, dedicated playerbases experiencing success on a champion because of their familiarity with the champion. Aside from Anivia (who came into the competitive scene for her strength at containing juggernauts), none see competitive play. They were all perfectly acceptable champions until the mastery rework pushed them into the OP range.

Instead of nerfing these five champions and alienating their very small playerbases, why not just fix the root of the problem: the interaction between DoT spells and Deathfire. It is very tangibly this interaction that has given these champions such a spike in power and popularity.

No Brand/Swain/Malz/Anivia players were asking for buffs and now these champions are being nerfed because Riot decided to meddle with the mastery system. Instead of making sweeping changes (removing a huge chunk of Swain's range, slashing Malzahar's tank melting ability (he's one of the only tank-shredding APs left! With the prevalence of juggernauts, midlane needs to keep this answer!), etc) to all these champions... simply fix the broken part of the system. Deathfire Touch.

I would suggest applying Deathfire Touch only on the first application of damage from a spell to balance the problem. This would turn the interaction between Malz E + DT into the same one as Vlad Q + DT, thus fixing the problem.

Thank you for your consideration.

116 Comments

Lee BelardoDec 2, 201532 votes

This. A million times this. The crit mastery was nerfed instead of Yasuo and Tryndamere, so why not follow the same example?

disregardableDec 2, 20151 votes

I'd assume it's because it'd be difficult to code.

PuynsiDec 3, 20153 votes

They are paid to code and make an effort, if they don't take their time to polish the already bugged code then they should just quit and make shitty android games, maybe thats more appropiate for their level of commitment.

BluePolarizerDec 3, 20152 votes

at this rate, League is moving in the direction of an android game.

faster game times
more snowballing and flashy moves
less strategy more twitch reflexes

eventually they're going to come out with a touchscreen version.

PartholonianDec 3, 201513 votes

Because DFT is weak on most champions. WLB working on minions was nuts on everyone that took it; it was just more nuts on Yasuo Tryndamere because of their crit-enhancing mechanics.

GubaguyDec 3, 20151 votes

and now its bad on everyone ACCEPT for the problem champions, sure ADC's still take it, but most have figured out furvor is better.

AbyssphereDec 3, 20155 votes

{quoted}

and now its bad on everyone ACCEPT for the problem champions, sure ADC's still take it, but most have figured out furvor is better.

If ADCs still take it then it's working as intended.

CatastropDec 2, 201518 votes

Then they'll leave the nerfed champions to stew with no compensation.

WoonStruckDec 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Then they'll leave the nerfed champions to stew with no compensation.

Tbh, all of the champions needed to be nerfed anyways. If you look at the numbers and functionality of their kit, its extremely powerful in general, and very little play against it.

If you're wondering how brand and anivia fit into it, think about how at the moment they can both afk farm, its impossible for melee to fight them if played properly, and the huge numbers in their kit overall.

3TWarriorDec 3, 201510 votes

and typically the only champions that these champions perform well against are some of the most complained about in the game, so, as the complained about champions are popular, doesn't it make sense that they would have a higher win rate?

have you played as anivia? she dies in an instant unless her passive is up, uses all of her mana after a few spells even with mana items and her damage is abysmal without even having the luxury of low cooldowns

swain's only advantage is in top lane where he can play effectively, but against another mage, his damage is effectively nullified

his only other pick is against zed or yasuo mid

if swain is played top lane, he will eventually be out-performed by the tank or fighter in top lane, even if farming is a less pleasant experience for them and don't forget that swain has absolutely no pressure under tower and no wave clear capabilities

Surr20plzDec 2, 201512 votes

Welcome to Riot Game Balance Philosophy 101!

Nerf the champ
Nerf the Item/skill/etc that made the champ op.
Never revert the nerf to the champ because reasons aka to admit we're wrong would be to undo the very fabric of creation itself.

slippykittenDec 2, 20156 votes

First they will nerf all dot mages, then they will nerf dft, thenall dot mages will sit in the trashcan for 2 years. Why oh why Riot refuses to nerf the actual problems before gutting champions, ill never know. Why they wont revert champ nerfs after having to eventually nerf the problem as well, I'll also never know.

Kitten of EvilDec 2, 20155 votes

No Brand/Swain/Malz/Anivia players were asking for buffs and now these champions are being nerfed because Riot decided to meddle with the mastery system

YES. Thank you. Also you offer a decent solution:

applying Deathfire Touch only on the first application of damage from a spell to balance the problem

Doctor JarvisDec 2, 20153 votes

I'm just going to leave this here... Deathfire Touch [Ferocity- Tier 6] [Damage changed] Base Damage changed to [8 + 50% bonus AD & 20% AP over 4 seconds] from [6 + 50% bonus AD & 20% AP over 3 seconds] [Duration changed] Burn Duration for Single target increased to 4 seconds from 3 seconds. Burn Duration for AoE increased to 2 seconds from 1.5 seconds Burn Duration for damage over time decreased to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.

VarqaaaDec 2, 20151 votes

Ah, I should have addressed this better in my original post. I'll edit that in in a moment.

Riot introduces something that breaks certain champions
Riot fixes this thing that breaks certain champions
Riot proceeds to nerf the champions anyways ????????

That is my issue

Doctor JarvisDec 2, 20153 votes

The change to DTF is actually a buff to single target mages and doesn't affect DoT mages TOO heavily (I think it reduces their damage by like 8 per spell), but it is of course a nerf. This makes sense because the actual nerfs to Swain, Anivia, Brand, and Malz aren't HUGE nerf either, just nerfs to keep them in check. I don't think the value behind these nerfs is much more than psychological

Kitten of EvilDec 2, 20153 votes

Reducing the duration of Anivia's chill is pretty significant, actually, since she absolutely needs it on her E. Her E already has a somewhat slow travel time, allowing some champions to dash away and avoid the "crit." Nerfing the chill duration on her ult makes her combo even less reliable against mobile champions. And is anyone suggesting that her problem was "she can hit people 2 seconds after they leave her ult?" I thought the main concern was that she can drop R+E for a guaranteed crit. This nerf doesn't affect that.

The others I could take or leave-- though they aren't very consistent. They're hitting Malz's late-game tank shredding power (Null Zone is leveled up last, usually), but hitting Swain's early-game power (even though he's a late-game monster) and hitting Brand's mana pool.

I Miss CannonDec 3, 20153 votes

CAN YOU GUYS EVEN FUCKING READ THE ANIVIA NERFS WERE REVERTED

Kitten of EvilDec 3, 20151 votes

When I posted this, only one of the nerfs (the Q nerf, which I didn't even talk about about) had been reverted. There's no need to be hostile.

BladegloryDec 3, 20152 votes

It's actually a significant nerf to DoT mages, assuming I'm understanding DFT properly. It's only a buff (of 2 damage) to single target casters if they go the full four seconds without hitting the target again.

Live: 6 + 50% BAD + 20% AP over 3 seconds. AoEs and DoTs only last 1.5s. PBE: 8 + 50% BAD + 20% AP over 4 seconds. AoEs lasts 2s. DoTs last 1s.

For both of these, the damage is dealt in half-second increments. If we have enough AD/AP to make it 100 damage total, the damage looks like this:

Live: 100 damage over 6 ticks of damage = 16.66 damage per tick. AoEs and DoTs do 50 damage over 3 ticks.

PBE: 102 damage over 8 ticks of damage = 12.75 damage per tick. AoEs do 51 damage over 4 ticks. DoTs do 25.5 damage over 2 ticks.

This is already looking bad, but what happens when you apply it to an actual ability?

Let's say Malzahar has enough damage to cause DFT to do 100 damage over its full duration on Live. Malefic Visions applies a DoT to the enemy for 4 seconds, dealing 8 ticks of damage total.

Live: 8 ticks of DFT from the spell dealing damage plus 2 more ticks means 10 ticks of 16.66 damage = 166.6 bonus damage PBE: 8 ticks of DFT from the spell dealing damage plus 1 more tick means 9 ticks of 12.75 damage = 114.75 bonus damage

That's a loss of 51.85 damage making a 31.1% nerf on DFT's effectiveness with Malz E.

(congratulations if you got through this entire ~~post~~ math assignment)

RamboDash15Dec 3, 20153 votes

Warwick is strong with item 3930 ? Better nerf Warwick is still strong? Nerf it! Warwick "Can I get my nerfs reverted?"

#Ritologic

(same for Sejuani and item 1409 )

ZzEslIolZQDec 3, 20152 votes

don't worry after they gut those champs they'll nerf deathfire "terrible decision gj ghostcrawler for the shit WoW masteries" touch.

PsyturkeyDec 3, 20152 votes

As a Malzahar main:

The nerf he got basically didn't even matter. His W is the last skill you max and even having access to DFT is a power boost from where he was at before 5.22 (which was like 55% win rate). The only reason Malzahars win rate isn't higher is because he's not actually that good at dealing with Tanks despite his %HP damage, when tanks are nerfed into line he'll be able to deal with them again and he'll be fine.

Before people shit down my throat about Malz not being that good at dealing with Tanks: -He is immobile and therefore struggles against hard engage. -Unless extremely ahead he can not 100-0 a full tank past the mid game. -Tanks are crazy strong right now.

IlliadDec 3, 20152 votes

Malzahar Dot will live on

ErockandrollDec 2, 20151 votes

DFT sets the base line for DoT mages. (and probably mages in general) They could probably nerf it if mages were, in general, way to strong. But even with 4 champs named, that's not really enough to say that mages (or even DoT mages) are in general too strong.

Also, if they later found out that these fringe cases are still good, using a different mastery, then Nerfing DFT would not change anything, all while putting a lot more champs in a weaker spot.

Riot isn't going to nerf DFT in a way that makes it generally bad. (but they did nerf it's synergy with DoT) mostly because mages have few options outside of DFT. (I really don't want to put 18 in the cunning tree just to get Thunderlord's)

VarqaaaDec 2, 201510 votes

Brand has a 57% winrate in plat+ ranked games. I would politely disagree and say that that's too strong. This is a 3-4% jump from where he was pre-mastery rework; a quick look at the point immediately to the problem. DFT + brand passive = absurd damage.

I don't think the other champions are too strong per se, but Riot does. Nerfs to Malzahar's damage, nerfs to Brand's mana costs, Anivia's Chill mechanic, Swain's CC (it appears the range nerf has been removed from PBE) have all been pushed this cycle. These are champions that have gone untouched for ages, and now that they've become accidentally strong through a mastery rework, Riot is nerfing them. That part doesn't make sense to me. Instead of nerfing the tried and true parts of the champion, why not nerf the new feature that threw the system out of equilibrium?

Nerfing DFT's interaction with DoT spells doesn't harm anyone else off the top of my head. Maybe like Zyra. The only part of DFT I suggest nerfing is its interaction with DoT spells (apply on successful spell cast, not on damage tick), as this is the only part of DFT that is game-warping.

Someone unrelated, I'd suggest you give Thunderlord's a second look... in general, it's much stronger than DFT. Except in these niche cases. But that's for another thread.

disregardableDec 2, 20152 votes

These are champions that have gone untouched for ages, and now that they've become accidentally strong

Gonna disagree with you there. Both Brand (support) and Anivia were strong in the past 3-4 patches. Now they're just unbearable. It's hard to call Malzahar strong because he's so easy to counter, but he did have a lot of damage if your opponent was stupid enough to not get a qss.

VarqaaaDec 2, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gqmEIE8g,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-02T19:01:56.858+0000)

Gonna disagree with you there. Both Brand (support) and Anivia were strong in the past 3-4 patches. Now they're just unbearable. It's hard to call Malzahar strong because he's so easy to counter, but he did have a lot of damage if your opponent was stupid enough to not get a qss.

This is splitting hairs a bit, but you aren't wrong. The important point is that theyy've become stronger. All four have shot up post-mastery changes, Brand in particular. Malzahar is pretty objectively strong; he's been sitting at a 53-54% winrate in plat+ ranked for pretty much ever, but this is largely due to the Talon effect (champions with small, experienced playerbases tend to succeed more)

AbyssphereDec 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

DFT sets the base line for DoT mages. (and probably mages in general) They could probably nerf it if mages were, in general, way to strong. But even with 4 champs named, that's not really enough to say that mages (or even DoT mages) are in general too strong.

Also, if they later found out that these fringe cases are still good, using a different mastery, then Nerfing DFT would not change anything, all while putting a lot more champs in a weaker spot.

Riot isn't going to nerf DFT in a way that makes it generally bad. (but they did nerf it's synergy with DoT) mostly because mages have few options outside of DFT. (I really don't want to put 18 in the cunning tree just to get Thunderlord's)

Why would you not want 18 in cunning? You're gonna go as far as 12 regardless and going to 18 nets you... flat magic pen and Thunderlord's Decree. It makes perfect sense.

Unless you're worried about MR-stacking tanks you should always go 18 in cunning. The flat pen is just better than the percentage.

PartholonianDec 3, 20151 votes

I'm unwilling to take TLD unless my champion has a way to proc it that doesn't involve my ult or more than one AA (and in some cases, even one AA can be tough to land). But there are definitely mages who can be good with it, as well as ones that should prefer DFT.

Billy VoHagenDec 3, 20151 votes

DFT is such shit on most everyone it doesn't deserve a nerf. Brand has been strong for quite a while, same with Swain and Anivia, just not many people knew about it.

AnihakuDec 3, 20152 votes

^ DFT is the worst keystone in my opinion. I would rather have something else for ap champs. It might be good on 4 champs but what about the rest? Riot give us something else pls!

PartholonianDec 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

^ DFT is the worst keystone in my opinion. I would rather have something else for ap champs. It might be good on 4 champs but what about the rest? Riot give us something else pls!

Oh come on, it can't be half as bad as Stormraider's Surge. You can escape from the fights that you can't win because your opponent has a damage/tankiness mastery and you have a MS steroid... until you fall behind enough that you can't even reach the damage threshold to trigger it at all.

AnihakuDec 4, 20151 votes

Ya......that keystone isn't the greatest either xD

dr lichdeathDec 3, 20151 votes

or just remove deathfire grasp and give us a new ap cdr item

MarthianDec 3, 20151 votes

Removing a mastery and adding an item is two different things.

(It's Deathfire touch, not grasp. They will never return that item.)

MrWasjigDec 3, 20151 votes

I've said it before and I'll say it again (even made an entire thread about it) but these changes are Cinderhulk all over again.

A change in the system makes some champions really strong. Riot nerfs Champions Riot then nerfs whatever made them strong Champions left in a nerfed state and weaker than before. (Perhaps not gutted but weaker regardless)

MarthianDec 3, 20151 votes

Except those champions were already strong to begin with. Brand was rising in win-rate and popularity even before pre-season, Swain is stronger than people give him credit, and Malzahar has such a problematic kit.

The preseason just pushed them over the top.

MrWasjigDec 3, 20151 votes

The thing that offset all that is that they weren't even played that much, not to mention that Malz and Swain have pretty much never seen competitive viability.

They were FINE. Big key word I'm using all over the place like Riot and their buzzwords. They were perfectly fine. They could be dealt with if you knew what you were doing easily.

LlaniteDec 3, 20151 votes

Logic is flawed.

70 people use DFT, 4 of them become OP, if you nerf the thing, the other 66 become underpowered.

But yes, making it apply only on spell cast would solve all the problems

BluePolarizerDec 3, 20151 votes

no other mages use DFT. they go 18 cunning. if they go DFT it's highly suboptimal.

Stars ShaperDec 3, 20151 votes

Azir Xerath

Excuse us?

LlaniteDec 3, 20151 votes

Everyone who does not have a combo of at least 3 spells will use DFT.

Karthus Kennen Morgana Veigar Galio Nidalee Lux

BluePolarizerDec 3, 20151 votes

not sure why Nidalee, Morg, Veigar, Lux or Kennen would ever use DFT. Thunderlord's or Stormraider's is 10000x better to improve their burst or use their burst for mobility while the rest of cunning is just superior.

LlaniteDec 4, 20151 votes

Like, someone does not want to AA and could not proc the thunder?

BluePolarizerDec 4, 20151 votes

I actually think Lux can take Windspeaker's since that's effectively giving Garen's old W to everyone she hits with her shield along with +10% shield. That's outrageous gold value, while DFT would add maybe 100 damage to your combo at level 16.

Subject 5Dec 3, 20151 votes

Insert win rate bias here

Remember when Heimer was top win rate for several seasons.

And remember when Janna was top win rate for several seasons and still is.

And remember when Amumu was top win rate for severeal seasons and still is.

And rem- Oh I think I made my point.

Dororox7Dec 4, 20151 votes

by nerfing the mention champions they're letting champs like Yasuo and any mid ad champs who goes for the warlord's bloodlust route to be stronger. they get 15% heals and 20% attack speed. When need mid champs like Malzahar Anivia Swain and or else champs like Yasuo will dominate mid lane.

SaiannaDec 4, 20151 votes

Riot introduces something that breaks certain champions

Riot fixes this thing that breaks certain champions
Riot proceeds to nerf the champions anyways ????????

That's other way around:

Riot introduces something that breaks certain champions
Riot proceeds to nerf the champions anyways
Riot fixes this thing that breaks certain champions ????????

VigilwakeDec 5, 20151 votes

It's not just the dot mages its players too. Everyone is running Deathfire do to its AD and Ap ratio on it give a ignite effect to some degree and then thunderlord burst makes so ever AD champ can do even more burst. It just kind of a welp I wanted to have fun but you pick Deathfire or Thunderlord so you want to win try hard style. While the other three offensive ones are just ok or not even useful. Stormrider surge when can you be sure that you will deal 30% of their health and then you want to chase after them....I think they're an item for the Phage or even the boots red enchant. Then the other two Warlords and Fervor first one you need crits and a lot of them to make it useful and the other grant a small boost to AD damage over as you attack to about 8 AD which is at level 18 while DF gives you that boost in damage every time you attack a target. Everyone give RIOT a slow clap. They could have made keystones for each of the types of champs or roles but instead we get. One crit based, one dual ish based, a OP second hand ignite, phage's slower cousin, and a smite for burst champs. This doesn't even count the defensive ones which only two of them are good the middle is just a filler IE "Strength of Ages which only gives around 300 plus health.