I need help with end game decision making.

Mujona··4 votes·1,748 views

So this is a "what would you do?" question. I make this forum post because it seems to happen more than I like.

So we come to the end of a game, we are fairly ahead. We just ace the enemy team, but we are low on life, and right near baron. Now there are 3 different plays we can go with. Play 1, is we can try to rush down their base as 5. It was a long drawn out fight, so the enemy might be back up before we can finish the game. There is an open lane, and 2 Nexus turrets left, but it is still a risk. Play 2, the Ultra safe play. We can just go take baron as 5, heal/buy then push for the win together. This is an ok play, but you don't gain as much as you could from it. Still a play option none the less. Play 3, is the split focus of objectives. Where you take your jungle and adc, to take baron; while your other 3 teammates push and take 1 of the nexus turrets. Then you all back, heal/buy and pressure for the win. Now this is semi risky (homeguarded enemies coming up), yet still fairly safe.

Being that I like calculated risk, I choose play 3. We would stand to gain the most from it while still being relatively safe, at most it would add 5 mins to the game for an extremely high chance of victory. Though it seems almost everytime I call for/ put this play in action, my teammates get blood lust in their eyes and they try to end the game. Almost every time they do this, they almost end it (very rarely they do), and the blame comes back on the ones who were "doing baron instead of pushing". Yet they seem to ignore the fact, that without the buffs that baron gives i.e. health regen/damage; they would not been able to push threw that fast too begin with.
Now again I ask, am I doing something wrong here? Should I suicide push for a 50/50 chance at a win? I feel like if they would just follow Play 3, it would add the MAX of 5 mins for at 95% chance of a win instead of 50/50, but that seems like it is just too much to ask sometimes, when they can just "END THE GAME!!"

All input is greatly appreciated. (Playing at mid gold level for those wondering) Edit: I would appreciate upvotes on the post it's self, so we can get more people in on this.

Scenario we are working with: 40min ace; All 5 alive, but with low health; Baron is on the board; You have mid tower/inheb down; Your supers are at your mid lane tower; Both nexus turrets up; Long fight, their jungle/apc will be up in 30/35 sec; Top/Bot Tier 2s still up, but your minions aren't close to them.

Edit: Woah this got allot more response than I thought it would, and helped me a bit. I am thinking about starting a new post series here with "Scenarios" for people too tell how they would handle it, could really help some players with play making.

27 Comments

12tales5 votes

The enemy team can only come back if there's gold on the map.

If you take Baron, there's nothing left for them to springboard back into the game with.

If you take towers, there's always a risk of getting counter baroned.

I guess my attitude is, why try to knock them out in one punch when you can strangle them just as easily? The safe play that's 100% guaranteed to get you ahead and keep you ahead is always my choice. So - baron, recall, push.

Think about it from the enemy's perspective - the single best thing that could happen to them would be finding you guys in their base at low health, with baron still on the map. The situation you describe couldn't realistically give them greater advantage than that. So why make the only choice that could potentially make that happen?

Mujona2 votes

While I do enjoy that play style, it seems allot at my level, people see a 50/50 chance that they can end before the enemy can respawn and stop them. Now is the best play to just do what you think is is right (i.e. go baron heal, "strangle" them out), or follow your team for a suicide win, and try to push ftw (even when you don't think you have enough time)?

12tales4 votes

Generally speaking, five people following a bad call is better than four people following a bad call.

But I also know which option gives the moral high ground, so eh.

Mujona1 votes

See that is where I am split. I can just follow the 5 man death charge and take a 50/50; hell if my team is working as 5, I will push it to a 65/35 win rate. But, those are odds I just cant agree with.
Where as just trying to tell them that baron is the safer play (me thinking there isnt enough time to win before they respawn), always ends up in a 2 baron 3 push.
Now this not being the best play ever, as long as the 3 pushing back off, it has an extremely high win rate. We come back as 5 and push with only 1 nexus turret remaining.

MrBuffington3 votes

I agree with 12Tales for the most part; there are other factors to take into account (press Tab for death timers), but if you're slightly ahead of the enemy team, you ace them, and you have a chance to get even more ahead of them, why not do that? Unless it's like, 90 minutes into the game and you ace the other team, then you have like half an hour before any of them respawn.

Another scenario; you kill two of their members and take an inhibitor; you can push in further into their base and try to contest nexus turrets, or you can just take all their inhibitors and back off. Why not do the latter? You actually save time (or make more efficient use of it) by taking the rest of their base, go back to fountain and heal/buy, have all your super minions push up. To quote Lastshadow, it's 7v5 at that point. You see so many games where a team takes three inhibitors, and with the next push, make some horrible mistake and get aced in the enemy base, but the enemy can't do anything off of that because super minions are killing their nexus. On the other hand, you see a lot of teams take one inhibitor and get ahead of themselves and try to end, get aced, and the enemy support or something hangs back to hold off superminions while the rest of the team just go win the game. (This is just speaking generally; there are obviously a lot of nuances to making the correct call, but generally, "slow", methodical play is more guaranteed)

The only situation I see you doing these 50/50 plays is if you're so far behind that 50/50 is the best chance you have (read: 50/50, not 10/90 or 20/80, etc). If you can stall out and improve your odds, I'd say that's the smarter call.

With respect to following stupid calls, I've had plenty of games where stupid calls ended up winning the game. I've also had plenty of games where I didn't follow a stupid call and ended up losing the game. (I've also had games where I didn't follow a stupid call and we won without me cause we were so far ahead anyways, but that's a separate matter). Take from that what you will, but I'd say it's always important to at least know what the correct call should have been, since the higher you climb, the less these stupid plays are going to work.

Wheatloaf5 votes

Whatever you do, make sure your team is on the same page. Organization wins more games than solo plays.

hadokken2 votes

Whatever you do, make sure your team is on the same page. Organization wins more games than solo plays.

i agree with this entirely. you can encourage your team to do what you feel is right (in my case end the game) by a few pings, but if they aren't committed, then follow the group. Someone else already said it earlier that its better to have 5 players to follow a bad decision than to have just a few. I feel option 3 is never the way to go (imo)

Mujona1 votes

Now, does anyone have any ideas how to convince your team to follow one play as 5? Example 3 want baron, 2 want to end; or vice versa. Where both sides think their idea is the better one.

A.k.a. You fall backs to get your team to move as 5.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

I think option 3 is never right. If it's late game and the death timers are all fairly high still, you should be able to group 5 and end the game (even without minions, why is everyone so hesitant to tank turrets? ?? adcs can wreck them). If the fight was drawn out (some people will be spawning soon): if you're low health either push as 5 or split push. You should be able to take at least an inhibitor and get out before they spawn. If you're reasonable health but aren't in a position to end as in my first case, take Baron as 5 and then push for an inhibitor if you have time before going to base (or just go to base then push, your option 2). The point is you act as 5. I don't think it's ever ideal to split up after an ace unless your pushing multiple minion waves for multiple inhibitors (I.e. It's mid game and not late game so you can't win off the Ace, and in this case since you're near Baron you should 5 man Baron and then split push). Maybe have 1 person go push mid while the other 4 Baron but otherwise I just don't see it.

Mujona1 votes

I think you missed the part where we were low health, but I feel like you are right about the staying as 5 part. Yet if you can get more than one objective by splitting your effort, is that not smart?
But, this is good. This is what I wanted, different views on the matter.

hadokken2 votes

at 40 minutes in you're pretty much guaranteed to win with those death timers if you ace them. it only takes about 25 seconds to take down inhib turret/double nexus turret and kill nexus. just rotate who tanks it if you need. 35 seconds is well over the amount of time needed to close out with the inhib down already. i see a lot of games lost because a team goes to get baron instead of finishing the game

Worgslarg1 votes

It depends on how minion waves are set up. if your creep is in/near their base, by all means end the game off the ace. Post 40 minutes, an ace is usually a win as most teams can simply push the base faster than respawn timers. Now if your minions are on the other side of the map, baron and then split is the right call.

Mujona1 votes

Just using one game as an example. Our super minions are at our mid lane tower, it is at 40:17. But, it was a long draw out fight, and their apc, and carry jungle would be up in 30sec and 34sec. We are all fairly low on HP.

Iciclewind1 votes

It would take 25 seconds or so just for your minions to get to their nexus towers so finishing the game is definitely out of the question. Taking out one nexus turret is kind of meaningless and it is unlikely your team will be able to accomplish it and then get away clean without the jungler and adc.

Iciclewind1 votes

In the case play 3 is executable you could probably win the game outright. Experienced players can often tell with good accuracy if they can finish the game or not, the general idea is to not take any risks.

Mujona1 votes

Do you think so? There are many cases that I see, that you have enough health to take 1 nexus tower before they respawn. As long as your team grabs baron for the regen/damage buff. In the case the enemy would be up to stop you from taking the 2nd tower and ending.

Iciclewind1 votes

Adc and jungler are usually the main source of tower damage, of course with exceptions. Their presence should easily be able to at least double the speed you take down turrets. I also assume following play 3 you would retreat two or three seconds in advance to get away cleanly from homeguards, which in this time frame you will be able to get the nexus very low.

Mujona1 votes

See, and in there lies the problem I have at my level, in the case of rushing down as 5. Once those homeguards come up. Depending on the players, they wont focus down the nexus, they will try to kite back, or try attacking the enemy, truely a death rush into the base. Thus resulting in a 50/50 win rate depending on the focus of your teammates. Thus is why I am so reserved to just "PUSH FTW", knowing in my mind, we might not be able to end it.

Iciclewind1 votes

Was mostly pointing out that play 3 is rarely a viable option. If you think finishing the game would be a 50/50 call then going for Baron sounds like the better choice.

Mujona1 votes

The main problem with that, my duo partner; he/she is an extremely smart person, but sometimes he/she gets over excited and doesn't realize. We aren't going to "lose" the game outright if we don't end that exact second. But, being we are both thick skulled we just go with the call we think is best.
That being said, that is why I love playing with my duo partner as well. I know that they are extremely aggresive and I use that in my play style. Sometimes it just backfires in objectives and ending.

redniwediS1 votes

I voted for play 2. If all three of their inhibs are down (which is the way you made it sound) there should be time to clear baron/dragon/whatever buffs you want while fully healing and preparing for the final push.

However if there's even one inhib standing you should be able to take it down while not risking a throw.

Mujona1 votes

I am not quite sure how I made it sound that way, but sometimes, yes that is the case. In the case of the most recent game it happened only mid inheb was down.

redniwediS1 votes

Well if you're in that spot where you don't think you can win before they respawn and jump you there are other inhibs to get! Nothing pressures a team quite like double super minion waves.

Mujona1 votes

That is all well and good, yet there are many cases where your teammates don't agree. They think the team can push for the win before the enemy comes up. Though you know for a fact that your team can not do that. What do you do? Follow them into death, or trust them and go for the 50/50 win, where if they would just pull off it would be a 95% win.

redniwediS1 votes

Well, to me that depends on how much CC you have. If you're playing a CC heavy champion stay with the team and give your life to get them out of there when they realize their mistake. If you're damage heavy ping careful a few times and take an objective that will actually matter.

If it's a close call stay with your team no matter what, but sometimes you have to cut your losses on a fight by fight basis.

tau431 votes

Holding a 4v5 while someone with TP split pushes is really sound if done right. I had a game where a Jax backdoored an Inhib, while the 4 of us just stopped the backs and enemy TP.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

End the game.

their jungle/apc will be up in 30/35 sec

This is the only "timer" you gave - assuming they're the first ones to spawn, this is plenty of time

You have mid tower/inheb down; Your supers are at your mid lane tower

You have a spot in which you don't have to tank turrets.


The only reason to NOT end the game is A) the fight was inside your base and there's the 20 second run across map, in which case do Baron.

or B) They have sufficient threat of killing you in the next 15 seconds on respawns.

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