Itemization in League: Lack of Diversity, Simplicity, and Ubiquity

Badgerino··43 votes·14,393 views

I've looked at the forums from time to time and two common thing I see is: "X Item is too Strong" which is often times countered with "But nerfing it kills X style of gameplay" or "I wish X style of champion had more tools" which often devolves into arguing which style has the least tools. The problem is that no one is particularly addresses the root issue; The Lack of Build Diversity, The Simplicity of League's Items, and the Ubiquity of Leagues items.

Now this is going to be a long post and I should perhaps preface this post with that I have been playing league since in alpha and the notion of cookie cutter builds have existed for years, the concept behind which is that for each champion there is a "Perfect Build" of which there is a limited standard of deviation. These styles of build path encourage that your build the same items in the same order every game. A perfect example of this are crit ADCs who tend to build: item 3095 -> item 3094 -> item 3031 -> item 3087 -> item 3026 / item 3035 / item 1053 every game. Same is true for assassin type characters who build: item 3147 -> item 3142 -> item 3071 -> item 3026 every game. And wouldn't you know the same is true for bruisers who build: item 3078 / item 3071 -> item 3053 -> item 3748 / item 3742 -> item 3065 -> item 3026 every game. I could go on. But the idea is that in broad strokes, regardless of the game there is The Build and nothing much else. Leaving players with usually only 1 item slot for flexibility, which is generally only found later into the game. As such we should question why this is the case, seeing as there are a few reasons. As far as I see it the reasons are as follows: Ease, Timings, Efficiency, and most importantly Stat Checks; of these however I really want to focus on the last one, and perhaps a bit about efficiency as well.

Most items in league cause stat checks pure and simple, the lack of meaningful active abilities cause items to be nothing but passive bonuses. Do I have enough Lethality to nullify my opponents armor? Do I have enough AD/AS/Crit to push well? Am I tanky enough to tank? These are how the cookie cutter builds function, they shoehorn you because its what's "Optimal". You will never not build the "Optimal" path because you will find it hard to function within your role without it. Buying the most effective item in league for your given champion is often times not a meaningful choice, and in most cases once you've bought said item you forget it and move on. The overall impact of the item rarely ties into how you use it, after buying a item 3065 or item 3075 for instance requires no skill to use, your champion suddenly just does more of the thing it was already doing; same can be said for every non-active item in league, which is the majority of items, and even some of the active ones. Due to the fact that the decision of which item to purchase in league is so simple and the nature of the items we purchase are so simple there is a distinct feeling for lack of counterplay when facing particular builds.

I find that **True Supports **are in a unique position on this matter however because they have the ability to purchase active items that uniquely influence themselves and their team's gameplay; true support can push a style of gameplay not just with their abilities but also their items. Think of it like this, picture Nami Nami To dumb it down, Nami heals, gives movespeed, and CC. It is not out of the question for Nami to build either item 3190 or item 2065, as they give her Redundancy in Her Gameplay, now redundancy is not bad, in fact its great, but how many items exist within league that one can say make up for a champion's deficiencies in a way that seriously alters the way a champion functions?

To look at that last question I am going to depart from league for a bit and talk a little about Dota 2, I know I know, but still. I'm not here to say one game is better than the other I just want to borrow some examples from it, I love both games in different capacities. I want to talk about a couple Heroes in Dota 2 for my examples, Lina, and Slark. Both of these heroes has any number of build paths they can follow; there is a slew of Damage, Defensive and Utility items that each of these Heroes can purchase in order to emphasize the style of play the player wishes to achieve, furthermore this allows players to adapt their builds on a game to game basis much more so than with league's current item pool.

Lets talk about **Lina **First. Lina is a nuke mage who is played either mid as a carry or as a support, you can think of her sort of like a Brand. She has the option to build items that increase her attack damage or her spell damage, the only difference is that in dota there are very few items that provide the latter of the 2. Because of the lack of "AP" items in Dota most players opt to go for a third category of items: Utility. One of Lina's Abilities "Light Strike Array"is a powerful AOE Nuke and also a 2.5 second Stun, however the biggest problem can be landing it as it has a 0.5 second delay. Due to the delay a lot of players purchase an Item called Eul's Scepter which does a lot of great things for us as Lina, it gives attack damage, mana regen and movespeed, great for a mage, but most notably is it's active ability _"Sweeps a target unit up into a cyclone, making them invulnerable for 2.5 seconds. Cyclone can only be cast on enemy units or yourself." _. The active of Eul's Scepter does two things, it gives you a defensive tool as it can be cast on yourself, or it can be cast on enemies for the perfect stun set up. The great thing is though, is this is never the only option, not all linas buy this item, but if you want to play a pick off style its great.

Next up is Slark. Slark is akin to Camille, a high mobility bruiser carry that can lock you down and force you to fight. However a Slark player must make many build decisions from the start of the game: am I going to build Shadow Blade, Blink Dagger or Neither? The AD and AS from Shadow Blade is a good tool to fight with early and its active: _"Makes you invisible for 14 seconds, or until you attack or cast a spell. While Shadow Walk is active, you move 20% faster and can move through units." _ allows me to easily pick off squishy heroes, but is easily countered by pink wards. Do I want blink dagger: _"Teleport to a target point up to 1200 units away. CD 15 sec" _ (Flash x 3 on a 15 sec CD) to be able to jump on enemies from out of nowhere because my gap closer doesn't have the longest range, this item also lets me move across the map faster increasing my farming rate. Both options are great early game main items for creating plays around the map, but again neither are the "correct" option and one can always just sit back, buy some tanky stat items farm up and rely on the champion's raw fighting capabilities.

To end this Dota tangent I just want to bring up 2 more items. It is not uncommon for players in Dota to have a fill inventory of activatable items by the time they are 6 slotted, in fact its fairly uncommon for players to have less than 3 activatable items, 2 items in particular, on top of the ones I mentioned prior, I find to be very interesting in how they change the way a hero plays: Black King Bar (BKB) and Orchid Malevolence. BKB gives a player complete magic immunity (infinite morgana shield) for 10 seconds going down 1 second each time you use it down to 5 seconds. BKB is a phenomenal defensive tool for players of any role in the game although to cost of the item means its generally used by carry type heroes, that being said supports who wish to channel important abilities in a teamfight will want to get this item as well. Once you have a BKB, the way you use it and the way you play completely changes the game. Orchid Malevolence on the other hand gives Players an instant silence for 5 seconds that also provides a spell damage amp. While Orchid is generally considered a spell caster item, Attack focused carries will occasionally pick this up for the utility it provides against certain heroes as well as the attack speed it provides (and it can later be built into a stronger crit item variant). So where each item in league is fairly ubiquitous regardless of situation, each item in dota is situational and its up to you to make the choice for what you'll need in any given situation.

Now thats probably more Dota than anyone wanted to hear but the point I was trying to get across is that, here exists one game where items are functionally similar to abilities or summoner spells that allows players to act and react to what their opponents pick and also what they build, we lack that currently in league and we lack it in spades. Unfortunately there is no easy solution that wouldn't require a complete shop overhaul. Do we add more options to the shop, slap a bunch of actives on already existing items, or tone down the existing power level of all items so that champions function more based on raw power and abilities?

**Option A) **Adding more options to the shop is a start but it'd have to be done tactfully (remember when Meki's Pendant and Fairy Charm were in the game? It didn't add anything). The way I see it is there are 2 types of items that could be very useful to add the first, and my favorite, being what I call Dead End Items. A Dead End Item is a usually a cheap item priced around the 1500 gold margin that provides useful early game stats and power that can be sold late game for a better item. Now League actually used to have a few Dead End Items in the game back in the day things like Cloak and Dagger, Staff of Flowing Water or if we look even further back Wizard's Regalia , whereas nowadays the only Dead End Item that exists is Mejai's Soulstealer which is a snowball item. There's positives and negatives to adding Dead End Items, the first being: will the meta allow for it? When was the last time you sold a full item? Can the meta be slow enough for these cheap early game value items to be just that. On the upside however you open up so much more build options; do I buy a BF sword for my storm razor that I'm going to build or do I stop off and get this thing that costs 200g more to further help my early game, in order to better reach my storm razor. The second category of items League could add are active items, less impactful items stat wise but with powerful actives that require nuance with the player, I find item 3222 to be a good example of this design. Of the active items that exist currently, the very impactful ones are spammed item 3157 item 3128 item 3003 item 3153 (to list a few) the rest are delegated to supports, and then there's item 3056....

**Option B) **Add active effects to League's existing item pool, now this doesn't completely solve the issue of standard build paths but it could make more niche items more appealing and add depth to the game (I know that a couple of times I've picked up Zhonyas on an ADC purely due to the lack of armor items for carries and its active). I could totally see item 3022 have an active that tosses a Frozen Mallet at an opponent Rooting or Slowing them for a brief period, allowing you to catch up and actually use the item's passive. Have an active on item 3068 that explodes around the user igniting units for amplified damage. Toned down item 3147 but give it an active that lets you go camouflaged for 2 seconds, or turn the ward spotting active into sweeper lens. Maybe item 3072 has an active where when you activate it it consumes your overheal shield and grants you bonus damage based on a percent of it. item 3194 can go up in counters as to how many spells have hit you in the last 4 seconds and when you activate it you gain 1% bonus movespeed for each spell counted. That being said those are all just ideas.

Option C) Tone down items and rely on champion abilities and such but no one want that.

TLDR; I'd like to see a larger variety of build options for champions in league. I think it'd be great if items provided less so passive effects and more substantial active gameplay. I think some cheap early game items could make for interesting purchasing paths. I believe dota 2 has good examples of the last 2 statements. Much like how we've had the mage rework, the marksman rework etc, I believe it's time for a shop rework. I would love to discuss this further with anyone who managed to read through this whole post. [poppy-wink]

  • Badger

Edit Due to a lot of the comments being about Dota 2 I'd like to clarify that I am by no means stating that League's Item pool should just be Dota's item pool. I too do not wish to have 3-6 active items every game, but I think that having more than just one on anything but support would be a nice change of pace. All I wanted to do with bringing up Dota was show how and why something is working in one game, and how in this game, league, things aren't working.

Please don't make this post just be about active items, I'm here to discuss solutions and what could be implemented. Active items shouldn't exist for the sake of more active items, but active items could exist for champions looking to do a specific thing, again I find item 3222 and item 3814 accomplish this.

I will not respond to comments remarking that increasing the amount of active items will overwhelm players. Active items are already an integral part of the game and increasing the number of active items available does not inherently mean each champion suddenly has a full inventory of them. Passive items are a part of the game and I'm not trying to do away with them, once again: active items that fulfill certain niches could be an interesting way to diversify build paths by trading some form of stat power for an effect that would be synergistic to certain champions. There are also alternative solutions I and others have suggested that have nothing to do with active items at all, so if your comment is going to be one as mentioned previously perhaps look at the other routes.

60 Comments

La Bello12 votes

Active items wont happen or rather are far less likely to happen. They overwhelm players and data showed most people have a disdain for them or think the focus should be mostly on champion mechanics "playing Zed/Yasuo/Akali is already mind boggling enough why make me juggle actives while im at it?". Riot has talked about this multiple times before even giving us crazy stats to go along with it. Very few DFG users even remembered to use DFG before its removal and as a personal anecdote im personally REALLY bad with remembering to use Redemption before I die.

Part of the charm of league is being simple and easy to get into. Making a large pool of active effects is the opposite of that idea.

I think rather that tossing some actives in you should make more passives that kinda have a short opportunity window like item 3508 item 3050 or item 3094. These items make windows of play and can change your playstyle but they dont require extra clicky clickys to work which eases the brain.

Badgerino3 votes

Part of the charm of league is being simple and easy to get into. Making a large pool of active effects is the opposite of that idea.

Hence why my favorite solution to build diversity would be the Dead End Items I brought up

I think rather that tossing some actives in you should make more passives that kinda have a short opportunity window like item 3508 or item 3094.

Thats also not a terrible idea.

Kazoo Soloist1 votes

{quoted}

Active items wont happen or rather are far less likely to happen. They overwhelm players and data showed most people have a disdain for them or think the focus should be mostly on champion mechanics "playing Zed/Yasuo/Akali is already mind boggling enough why make me juggle actives while im at it?". Riot has talked about this multiple times before even giving us crazy stats to go along with it. Very few DFG users even remembered to use DFG before its removal and as a personal anecdote im personally REALLY bad with remembering to use Redemption before I die.

Part of the charm of league is being simple and easy to get into. Making a large pool of active effects is the opposite of that idea.

I think rather that tossing some actives in you should make more passives that kinda have a short opportunity window like item 3508 item 3050 or item 3094. These items make windows of play and can change your playstyle but they dont require extra clicky clickys to work which eases the brain.

I agree with this. It's the main reason why I play League over Dota 2 even though I've played both a lot. I don't like having to manage active items on top of my normal abilities... although League is admittedly slowly starting to turn into that with certain builds requiring a lot of active items. (Ie: Predator + Youmoo's + sometime's an item like Hydra or BotRK)

I make an exception for things like Zhonya's that are basically required in certain match-ups. Heck, if I had been a game designer, I might have put forth the idea of splitting active items into "combat" and "support" actives and then allowing players to only have one "combat" active at any time. (This would for example force people to choose between Gunblade and Zhonya's but still allow Redemption + Mikael's)

An alternative would be to allow people to build multiple actives, but to make all actives share cool downs. So if you had protobelt and Zhonya's then by using Protobelt you couldn't use either for 40 seconds and by using Zhonya's you couldn't use either for 120 seconds.

XOXOXOXOXOXO1 votes

Predator and Youmoo's isn't something hard to manage though, but if you had a Mikaels, Botrk, Zhonyas, and Protobelt. That would be hard to manage. (I know that isn't a realistic build, but it's an example of what it would be like to have 4 actives in one build.) It's like having 8 abilities instead of 4, Just half anyone can have too.

Kazoo Soloist1 votes

{quoted}

Predator and Youmoo's isn't something hard to manage though, but if you had a Mikaels, Botrk, Zhonyas, and Protobelt. That would be hard to manage. (I know that isn't a realistic build, but it's an example of what it would be like to have 4 actives in one build.) It's like having 8 abilities instead of 4, Just half anyone can have too.

You're talking to the person who literally rebound EVERY SINGLE KEY of his FFXIV hotbar because I have trouble manipulating that many keys at once.

I already have trouble with fat fingering... and I'm only manipulating 7 keys total. (4 abilities + 2 summoners + maybe 1 or 2 actives).

So... I can't. That's one of the reasons I play League over Dota or other similar games is that I DON'T have to worry about hitting a specific one of a large number of keys. Taking that away is like taking away one of the core tenets of League... that its easily accessible for newer players. (I in particular am not, but the point still stands.)

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

Active items wont happen or rather are far less likely to happen. They overwhelm players and data showed most people have a disdain for them or think the focus should be mostly on champion mechanics "playing Zed/Yasuo/Akali is already mind boggling enough why make me juggle actives while im at it?".

This is a fair point, imo. The problem with adding new gameplay effects, such as actives or conditional passives, via customization systems is that they each require the user to pay attention to them, which doesn't always work, and doesn't always mesh well with champions who are already complex enough on their own. In fact, it tends to make all champions less approachable, because in addition to having to learn their kit, one has to learn how to use items on them at the right times. This, I think, is one of the reasons why more modern items and Runes Reforged haven't always been popular, at least compared to the simpler, more stat-based runes and items we used to have, because they've made the game more difficult to approach overall and have taken the focus away from individual champions, when pure stats had the advantage of letting the player devote their full attention to mastering their champion's kit.

This, I think, is the great failure of the whole design mentality of trying to inject major gameplay into every little piece of a game: not every little thing has to be a major decision point or a high moment, and implementing too much of those at the same time ends up making the whole experience confusing and muddled. Seasoning each individual piece of pasta with a different exotic spice, and blending them all with dairy from a dozen different animal species isn't going to make your mac and cheese taste that much better, and in fact may produce something truly abominable. In that same vein, turning itemization and runes into a conglomerate system that tacks on a dozen different gameplay effects to a champion, each with the ability of influencing the course of a fight, has ended up causing the game to feel less about the expression of each individual champion's fantasy, and more about abusing whichever part of the system Riot has chosen to focus on for the time being, namely by exploiting some broken item or rune.

Tahminatrix 7 votes

Ya, right now item builds in this game are so set in stone that its is like thanos putting stones in his infinity gauntlet...

Glory977 votes

The balance team is already incapable of balancing the game. Now imagine that champions have multiple build pathes that all have to be considered when buffing or nerfing a champion...

Teridax685 votes

This is a brilliant and well-written post, thank you for taking the time to write it. I also agree fully with the analysis: despite the huge influence items have over gameplay in League, they fail to provide the element of customization they were designed for. Every champion tends to have one optimal build path, and many items by design are oriented towards synergy and efficiency, as opposed to versatility or diversity. Much of this is also partly intentional, as Riot over time has forced champions within certain subclasses to buy only certain stats, or even revolve completely around a particular item (e.g. AD assassins and Duskblade). Modern champions are also designed with a hyper-focus on building a specific set of stats, also in a deliberate manner that often runs counter to a player desire for greater build diversity (e.g. Kindred being forced to buy crit). Effectively, the problem is not simply one of implementation, but also of intention: Riot has not successfully enacted diversity in itemization, but it also doesn't feel like they want to to begin with.

Personally, and this may be off-putting to many, I feel like League needs a different way of offering true customization, something that does not rely on runes, summoner spells or items. Items work in Dota 2, but Dota 2 is also a game balanced around fundamentally different rules, where items are allowed to have more power, and where most heroes can make at least decent use of most stats. League, by contrast, has a much more limited design, where many effects are flat-out not allowed on itemization, and where most stats are virtually worthless on most champions. Redesigning itemization to allow for greater diversity, imo, would require rebalancing champions and reworking the way they make use of stats, in addition to changing items themselves, which would be a massive task.

With this in mind, I think the most sustainable model in the long-term for a game like League could be to implement bespoke alternate playstyles for each individual champion. I'm not proposing a HotS-style talent system, as I think it has its own problems that tend to limit diversity, but rather an even more tailored, "fixed menu" style of customization. To pick an example, suppose someone takes Lulu: option A could focus on making her a support, and place emphasis on playing with her utility, whereas option B could focus around making her a more independent champion who uses her utility to fuel her offensive capabilities. Each option would implement those playstyles not with stats, but with targeted changes to the champion's abilities, as well as the addition of whichever extra passives, actives, etc. would benefit such a playstyle. It would sacrifice the fine-grained customization that stats could potentially provide (even though they don't really do that now), but in exchange it could not only properly enact diversity (each playstyle could be made truly distinct from everything else in the game), but also be much easier to balance in the long run (changing one playstyle wouldn't affect the rest of the champion, and would rely on far fewer factors, much less a complex system of multiple overlapping layers of customization).

At this point, the game is so big that I doubt an idea like this may ever get implemented, but it could nonetheless still be possible if League started progressively abandoning stats on its items, and rolled both runes and summoner spells into itemization (which by itself would already allow for some more options).

Badgerino2 votes

While I replied to each other post in one comment I felt the need to reply directly to this one. This comment words a few things in a way I failed to do so and I thank you for that.

despite the huge influence items have over gameplay in League, they fail to provide the element of customization they were designed for.

This This This, so much so this. I find the only champion I currently find ways to itemize differently is Akali and that may just be due to the fact people haven't created a set in stone build yet.

Riot has not successfully enacted diversity in itemization, but it also doesn't feel like they want to to begin with.

This is the unfortunate truth behind the matter, and hence why I wanted to start a proper conversation rather than a thread just saying "I'm tired of seeing duskblade every game"

changing items themselves, which would be a massive task.

Yet not one that I believe the community would be opposed to seeing, a change like this would breathe fresh life into the game. I also believe that Riot has the capability to make a change like this and though it would take time it would leave a substantial impact on the game as a whole; Riot has often talked about how they want more diversity and I find that items to be a very limiting factor for which heroes are and are not meta.

"fixed menu" style of customization. To pick an example, suppose someone takes Lulu

As someone who occasionally plays Lulu top you can in the game already see pieces of the puzzle there and while I cannot fully visualize your concept I agree with your analysis.

Again, thank you so much for your comment, it was very well argued and written.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

Yet not one that I believe the community would be opposed to seeing, a change like this would breathe fresh life into the game. I also believe that Riot has the capability to make a change like this and though it would take time it would leave a substantial impact on the game as a whole; Riot has often talked about how they want more diversity and I find that items to be a very limiting factor for which heroes are and are not meta.

This is true. I might be biased on the matter, as I never found items in League to be especially successful (they used to be mostly stat sticks, now they're full of disruptive effects, and neither iteration really provided the most diversity), but games like Dota 2, or even Smite, show that it's possible for a MOBA to successfully implement itemization. I also agree: while overhauling itemization would incur a massive short-term cost, it would carry significant long-term benefits if done right, and would allow the rest of League's design and balance to hopefully become much easier.

My main concern with any sort of large rework to underlying game systems, both for itemization and for my proposed customization, is that I'm personally not actually all that sure if Riot would be willing or able to do so. Riot has certainly implemented a lot of change, including some very disruptive updates, but those changes in recent times have come across as half-baked, with little done with regards to their long-term consequences. The class updates we've received, for example, only enacted half-measures, and ended up introducing more problems than they solved. Runes Reforged would be smaller than any hypothetical itemization overhaul, yet we're still dealing with major balance problems introduced by that system, as well as an impending preseason update that is likely to change many runes yet again. I don't entirely have faith in Riot anymore to enact changes at such a scale and produce something truly durable, particularly since the developers seem uncertain of which direction they should take League of Legends as well.

Badgerino1 votes

The most one can do is offer help and solutions. After that, hope for the best, though maybe expect less than that. A positive attitude towards Riot gives Riot more incentive to make changes like these.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

A positive attitude towards Riot gives Riot more incentive to make changes like these.

This statement I question, both due to the way Riot has approached criticism in the past, and continues to approach criticism, but also on the grounds of what counts as "a positive attitude". On the first point, Riot at this time has gained a reputation for ignoring most criticisms: for a long time, many people have been pointing issues with features such as Runes Reforged, with the balancing of damage, or with Dynamic Queue back when it existed. In virtually all of these cases, not only did Riot avoid addressing these criticisms, they often pushed back against them, attempting to convince the playerbase that all was fine, and that the features being criticized were successful. In the worst of cases, Riot has resorted to outright gaslighting the playerbase, trying to cast the impression that critics were but a vocal minority that didn't matter, that they were all part of some delusional, conspiratorial hive mind, and that the things they were criticizing either did not exist, or had always existed. This has occurred regardless of how such criticism was formulated, with constructive feedback getting lumped in with the angry ranting. The few times where Riot has apparently listened to feedback in recent times is when notable content creators like hashinshin go on these really vicious tirades, which then attract an equally vitriolic following. As such, as bad as it sounds to say, being nice to Riot is not what has gotten them to pay attention to the playerbase or their grievances.

Additionally, I also take issue with the way the terms "positive" or "negative" are used in conversation relative to one's attitude towards Riot. This isn't targeting you specifically; rather, this is a larger problem I've seen on the internet when conversation turns to creative works. Usually, the terms "positive" and "constructive" tend to be used interchangeably when describing the attitude with which one gives feedback, where one voices one's criticisms with good intentions, i.e. that of trying to help with some issue. This does not imply one has nothing but good things to say about the people one is trying to help, and that very idea runs counter to the fact that one is criticizing the work of those people in some form, by pointing out that it is imperfect and could be done better. Nonetheless, that seems to be the standard many people here, including members of Riot, hold as " a positive attitude". To people with this opinion, feedback is only positive if it is slathered in praise for Riot and unwavering faith in their ability to do good, whereas making even the slightest criticism of the company, or the people within, is instantly cast as negative, and thereby made easier to dismiss. This is not how feedback works, and in fact the people who are only willing to process feedback that is unequivocally positive in tone tend to have a problem taking in feedback of any sort, as mentioned above. I think it is absolutely valid to criticize Riot for the things they have done, and not have to rely on blind faith alone to judge their capabilities as a development studio when they have had a track record of several years already. If Riot and its staff are unwilling to listen to feedback that is less than glowing, even at a time when it has become increasingly unwise for them to do so, then that is entirely on them.

Badgerino2 votes

Whether or not I agree with your well written post here, this is a very separate issue and conversation. Semantics of what is constructive vs positive aside I'd like to try and not harbour any malcontent towards any companies or opinions in this thread. Again, we can only ever hope for the best.

deadlychuck1 votes

While I agree with the overall statement made by this post. I think a lot of this stems from the fact that riot changed a lot of the game away from a strategic RPG approach of designing champions to a more action oriented approach.

Where as in an RPG design, swapping out a few items could dramatically change the focus and role of your champion, which made it nearly impossible to have a "default" built, because if the enemy team wasn't also using a "default" build, then you'd be crippling yourself by using a predictable consistent build as everyone else in the game.

The issue of this kind of stat checking nature of the itemization is a result of having both RPG style champions designed to fill a particular role on the team consistently and reliably and champions designed to be action characters who have unreliable and inconsistent degrees of success at doing their job, in the same game. Riot needed to split the game up into two different games a long time ago and develop them independently. One version which kept the old RPG/RTS slower style of game and added in a second version which could adopt this new faster pace and lower consistency style.

Simply put, riot use to design around numbers, now they design around statistics, so changing items from numbers to statistics would be approriate. They changed from target skills that do 50 damage, to skills that will miss 50% of the time but deals 100 damage. Numerically they might be the same, but functionally they only work in different contexts and are impossible to balance against each other.

Do this to items in nexus blitz, and revert changes made to SR over the past like 5 years. Simple :D

dome0251 votes

I agree with you that League could need more items but it would also make the game harder for beginners and would cause much more work to balance the game. However those should not be excusements to not giving us more variance in our item builds. More items would also mean that we can be more creative with offbuilds, etc.

What I personally don´t want and I think which is perhaps unhealthy if it would become a requirement to have an inventory full of activatables. There are already so many things to keep track of and it would make the game much more stressful than it already is.

LynXerf1 votes

Whilst I don't think having 6 active items in your inventory really runs with the design philosphy of league, I would love to see the game slowed gown along with gold income, shutdown gold, turret gold bonus etc. At the moment it's not even unusual to see someone at full build at 25 mins, it's insane. It used to take 40 mins at best to reach full build and then it was a case of FED.

With this we can have more mid-range dead end items. At the moment everything builds into and out of everything, I don't like it. Rageblade used to be a mid-tier niche item that I used to rush for a goofy power spike. There should be more items in the range of 2000-2500 gold and they should be more raw stat-efficient than the legendary items. The legendary items should have more powerful actives and utility. Trinity force, for example, should be the ultimate legendary item. The sheen proc should be reverted back to 150% AD, and more utility moved into it such as AD, AP, crit everything really. I loved the old trinity - anyone could build it but it wasn't perfect for anyone. It could be remade to include more useful utility like move speed and health.

For me, perfect itemization would be a case where only 1 in 10 games you get to that end-game full build fantasy. It would be far more novel then!

TMek71 votes

The 'Dead End' items seem to exist to either hard push objectives (seems a little divisive to balance around) or to help allies snowball (which isn't too bad assuming its not an automatic win item), since those items will stall your end game progression since while you'll gain more gold through taking advantage of extra power from the Dead End items, you lose out regardless because you'll be selling the investment. The objectives and allied snowball effect (assuming they aren't going for dead end items too) would probably not be taken on champions that rely on snowballing/late game power.

Though I would welcome additional items for varieties sake, preferably as items used as counter items or counter-counter items.

What I would like to see is alternative item variants, to allow you to lean your build a particular way without compromising on necessary active/passive effects. The initial idea behind the ADC item changes seemed intriguing; IE, BotRK and ER being the main build pieces - IE providing its power multiplier but only benefit AAs and crit scaling, BotRK providing AS and LS which are both super useful plus giving it a antitank effect while restrict power from abilities, and ER having mana sustain and good damage for ability users but again not providing more crucial stats like LS and AS. In this regard I kinda wish ADCs had more AS options that didn't involve crit for the builds that don't put emphasis on it (and put power somewhere that they'd use instead)

TheCodeisCupCake1 votes

As someone who has played Dota for around 4 years (quit to move to league) I can say comparing league items to Dota's items is very reckless. The two Moba's have VASTELY different play styles. Moreover, Dota's meta shifts very rarely and changes to their heroes are usually VERY SMALL number changes, so having many items with different effects is easier to manage than say league where a new champion becomes meta every other week.

However I do agree with the fact that league does need more itemization options. Especially as a tank/juggernaut player I usually have the same build path save 1 item that will be changed. For example the only times I find myself specifically changing my build path is when I am vs alot of crit in which case I will itemize item 3143 as a second/third item, boots also seem to be the only thing I constantly change either building item 3111 or item 3047 rarely going anything else (greaves if i am playing a non tank and can afford lack of defensive options).

Yordle Xayah1 votes

Unless you're Varus and don't care about the meta and can literally build whatever you want. I'm sure there's someone out there making Tank Varus work.

Kazoo Soloist1 votes

{quoted}

Unless you're Varus and don't care about the meta and can literally build whatever you want. I'm sure there's someone out there making Tank Varus work.

Hmmm...

Some "just for the fun of it" theory crafting.

"Take it to the late game."

Assumed summoners are Heal/Flash.

Full Tank:

Runes: (Resolve / Sorcery)

Resolve: Grasp of the Undying Font of Life Second Wind Overgrowth

Sorcery: Celerity / Manaflow Band / Nullifying Orb / Transcendence Gathering Storm

Items: (Full Build in no particular order.) Ninja Tabi / Merc Treads / Boots of Mobility / Lucidity Boots Black Cleaver Triforce Deadman's Plate Spirit Visage Warmog's Armor

Tank/Support:

Runes: (Resolve / Sorcery)

Resolve: Grasp of the Undying Font of Life Second Wind Overgrowth

Sorcery: Celerity / Manaflow Band / Nullifying Orb / Transcendence Gathering Storm

Items: (Full Build in no particular order.) Ninja Tabi / Merc Treads / Boots of Mobility / Lucidity Boots Redemption Athene's Unholy Grail Ardent Censor Mikael's Crucible Knight's Vow / Zeke's Convergence

All-In Actives Support:

Runes: (Inspiration / Domination)

Inspiration: Kleptomancy Magical Footwear Biscuit Delivery Cosmic Insight

Domination: Zombie Ward Ingenious Hunter

Items: (Full Build in no particular order.) Ninja Tabi Redemption Mikael's Crucible Locket of the Iron Solari Banner of Command Zz'Rot Portal

Now to go try this out.

...

In bots of course. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Badgerino1 votes

was this thread based off my comment?

Not inherently, I believe it's a common topic. But yes we mention very similar things at the start.

.

As a player of both games, I heavily prefer League's balance, and I think if you play a bit of DotA2 you'll probably prefer the system League has in place for balance.

As I stated before, I love both games in different capacities. This post had nothing to do with balance so I don't know why you're bringing it up. I brought up Dota 2's Itemization as an example of a game with varied build paths and why it's engaging for players to make these decisions.

.

I can say comparing league items to Dota's items is very reckless.

I tried to be conservative with it, though perhaps I should have mentioned Drums or Aquila instead of BKB. Again, by no means to I want 1 for 1 Dota 2's Items in League, just more options that we have currently.

.

The 'Dead End' items seem to exist to either hard push objectives or to help allies snowball

I feel like something I run into a lot as an ADC player is that I will spend 800 gold on a item 3123 sometime before I finish my 1st or 2nd item if I'm verusing something like a Soraka and very rarely does it build into a final item. The power Executioners Calling give me early verses that style of champions is an investment I enjoy making the decision of, and I feel it emphasizes what you state next which is.

Though I would welcome additional items for varieties sake, preferably as items used as counter items or counter-counter items.

.

I noticed that there are a lack of uncommon stats together in items.

This is another very valid point, remember when Atma's Impaler used to exist, we never saw a combination of Crit and Armor ever again. Items like these, with different distribution of stats, could be beneficial albeit a bit niche. Where is my AP/Crit item?!

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Whilst I don't think having 6 active items in your inventory really runs with the design philosphy of league

Again I too do not wish to have a full inventory of active items, but I feel like tactfully adding active effects to items to make more niche items more viable for classes who might not inherently be interested in picking them up would be beneficial.

.

It used to take 40 mins at best to reach full build and then it was a case of FED.

Ah the good ol' days.

With this we can have more mid-range dead end items. At the moment everything builds into and out of everything, I don't like it.

Same, it makes for a lack of decisions. I have 350 gold may as well pick up a item 1036 it build into something I need later, dunno what yet. I'd like to see more skill in picking the right build.

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I agree with you that League could need more items but it would also make the game harder for beginners and would cause much more work to balance the game. However those should not be excusements to not giving us more variance in our item builds. More items would also mean that we can be more creative with offbuilds, etc. What I personally don´t want and I think which is perhaps unhealthy if it would become a requirement to have an inventory full of activatables. There are already so many things to keep track of and it would make the game much more stressful than it already is.

Again, I too do not want a full active item inventory but in most games I barely get more than 1 active item and it feels disingenuous because I'm not really managing my build, it just exists to make me stronger in a passive way. I also agree with your support for offbuilds, or for players to at least make more than 1 variation decision in the entirety of a match.

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The balance team is already incapable of balancing the game. Now imagine that champions have multiple build pathes that all have to be considered when buffing or nerfing a champion...

Again this post had nothing to do with balance, so please don't start a LUL Rito can't balance shitwar in the comments.

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Riot originally wanted LoL to be a simpler dota and therefore they decided to corkscrew a unique playstyle into each champion's kit. Items in LoL are merely ball of stats with no other purpose to influence the game

Done right you have have both simplicity and depth in a game.

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I dont have a problem with 2 or sometimes even 3 active I personally think we can have items with different stats, and passives that are interesting and dramatically improve the dumbed down stale itemization in the game.

First off thank you for stating your opinion in a constructive manner, and second that first bit of what I've quoted is more in line with what I'd like to see but is far from necessary. The idea was for weaker less picked items to perhaps have beneficial active effects that help push these niche items toward champions who may benefit from synergies, while at the same time not buy a 100% optimal item.

Second another post mentioned stat groupings of items, how you don't see certain stats often placed together such as health and attack speed. I think having a look at this sort of design could be a way to spice up the game.

.

Now i want to play Dota >.> btw what is spell amp? I saw that as an option in talent tree when I watched TI8, aswell as multishot? And is offlane Bounty Hunter still a thing?

The do it! Spell amplification is basically dota's way of saying AP, you can find it on things like Kaya, or Veil of Discord; the spell amp on Orchid Malevolence works somewhat differently as it provides a burst of damage at the end of the silence based on how much damage you dealt during it but ya. And bounty is usually played a support these days.

.

THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO REPLIED

the weeaboo1 votes

Honestly I think they should make the item system more like Dota and move champs damage and stats into base damages and level gains, and focus items more on actives and unique effects to diversify play styles. Right now you basically have a flowchart for what items to buy. Are you a mage? Are you vs. Zed? Are there enemy tanks buying MR? item 3285 item 3157 item 3020 item 3135 three of these items are entirely passive. first four items no question, every single game.

in Dota, just boot choices alone are pretty insane. You get the choice of:

  • item 3117 +item 3083
  • item 3142
  • Switching between when you need to tank some damage, casting a spell, and attacking, in the middle of a teamfight or constantly during lane.
  • summoner 13
  • summoner 12

A Dota level overhaul would be massive but it’s necessary to make the game less stale and polar

Kazoo Soloist1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I think they should make the item system more like Dota and move champs damage and stats into base damages and level gains, and focus items more on actives and unique effects to diversify play styles. Right now you basically have a flowchart for what items to buy. Are you a mage? Are you vs. Zed? Are there enemy tanks buying MR? item 3285 item 3157 item 3020 item 3135 three of these items are entirely passive. first four items no question, every single game.

in Dota, just boot choices alone are pretty insane. You get the choice of:

  • item 3117 +item 3083
  • item 3142
  • Switching between when you need to tank some damage, casting a spell, and attacking, in the middle of a teamfight or constantly during lane.
  • summoner 13
  • summoner 12

A Dota level overhaul would be massive but it’s necessary to make the game less stale and polar

But at that rate... why aren't you just playing Dota? Then everyone has access to all the heroes immediately which can lead to greater hero diversity in game.

I prefer League over Dota because there are fewer active items. If I wanted to spam all of the buttons I'd just hop on FFXIV and pull out my bard. (It can be any other game... I just happen to play FFXIV.)

the weeaboo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kazoo Soloist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gPXiqPNQ,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2018-08-20T17:38:40.978+0000)

But at that rate... why aren't you just playing Dota? Then everyone has access to all the heroes immediately which can lead to greater hero diversity in game.

I prefer League over Dota because there are fewer active items. If I wanted to spam all of the buttons I'd just hop on FFXIV and pull out my bard. (It can be any other game... I just happen to play FFXIV.)

I play League because I love the champion design and whatnot in League. A far greater mechanical diversity goes into champ design, like Ivern's no kill clear or Jhin's reload system. That being said, it's the opposite for items. They're uninspired, boring, and stale. Items in league are basically just stat sticks, which I think makes the game unhealthy. It's not really spamming buttons if you have 3 or 4 active items. Many of them are simple toggles but it feels so much more interactive than League. For example, Ring of Aquila. Toggling on gives your minions some bonus combat stats meaning your wave pushes automatically. Turn it off to freeze. Simple stuff like that would be alot better IMO.

Kazoo Soloist1 votes

{quoted}

I play League because I love the champion design and whatnot in League. A far greater mechanical diversity goes into champ design, like Ivern's no kill clear or Jhin's reload system. That being said, it's the opposite for items. They're uninspired, boring, and stale. Items in league are basically just stat sticks, which I think makes the game unhealthy. It's not really spamming buttons if you have 3 or 4 active items. Many of them are simple toggles but it feels so much more interactive than League. For example, Ring of Aquila. Toggling on gives your minions some bonus combat stats meaning your wave pushes automatically. Turn it off to freeze. Simple stuff like that would be alot better IMO.

In that, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The problem is that right now practically all items are additional buttons rather than toggles which I find to be downright irritating. Also, if toggle spamming becomes a required mechanic then that's worse than "must press" actives.

Jakra1 votes

I feel like we should have more items that are more objective based. You know how support items only give wards when you get so much money from its passive? Stuff like that.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

If every champ ends up with 6 active items i'm quitting this game. I came here to play champs, not items.

I like passive items, i dislike most active items. The only one's i've never had issues with are the tiamat items. BoTRK i've learned to use but still often forget. Active items i can work into my combo i don't mind, but shit like zhonya's i just don't like.

I feel like items should enhance your kit, nothing more. Are they statballs with passives? sure but why is that bad? Every game i've ever played had items just be statballs.

What i DO like are passives. I like Guinsoo's, rylai, liandry, etc... But the ones i especially like are items like duskblade. I know yall don't wanna hear that but listen: Nightstalker requires you to not be seen for 1 second to proc it. It has a condition that has to be met before it's PASSIVE can be used. So it gets abused by the likes of Kha, who's playstyle doesn't really change. But now build it on twitch instead of going the basic aoe nuke build. Twitch item 3147 item 3087 + Dark harvest is one of my favourite builds and i've added item 3095 to it now. Instead of sneaking behind a team and bursting them with my ult, my playstyle changes to a reset assassin playstyle. Sheen items do it alright imo, Deadmans plate too, so does RFC.

I still want active items in the game, don't get me wrong. But only if it fits into the combo. It might be interesting to see a sheen item turn into an active like the tiamat items, giving you more controlled burst but less "dps"/uptime.

I'm all for more niche items. Give an item a weird mix of AS and HP, if noone builds it it's not gonna get in anyone's way. if someone does end up using it, great.

I play league to play champions, not lanes, not roles, not itembags. Items should enhance your champ and possibly change their playstyle with passives.

shaco is a good example as he's clearly capable of building both ap and ad. Or atleast he was.

Badgerino1 votes

If every champ ends up with 6 active items i'm quitting this game. I came here to play champs, not items.

So I see a lot of people talking about how they don't want 6 active items, which again was not the point of this post; this post is not called "We Need more Active Items in League". People are focusing on the wrong aspects of the post, I feel like we can all agree that we don't want league to become dota, because we all like league. I brought up active items as a solution to items/builds/champions with little to no counterplay, and for less bought items to become more appealing to certain niches. Please remember this should be a conversation about a solution.

I'd like to hear more about this

What i DO like are passives. I like Guinsoo's, rylai, liandry, etc...

What makes you like these items and how can the same sort of design be implemented to other items

Anin7771 votes

In terms of damage items, it has to be limited because [recent] champs are designed with certain playstyles in mind. Jhin can go AS+Crit, Armor Shred, Full AD and still work. Lucian can do the same and work. But a champ like Vayne is limited. Why? Her kit is dependent on AS and that's perfectly fine.

Diversity in items is what led to the CDR mess we have now. People wanted more CDR available on other items and Riot went overboard and gave almost every core item CDR (Did Maw really need CDR?).

Edit: Adding more items requires more balance work and right now, balance is in shambles. Let Riot bring this game back to S5 standards and then they can think about item diversity.

Badgerino1 votes

In terms of damage items, it has to be limited because [recent] champs are designed with certain playstyles in mind. Jhin can go AS+Crit, Armor Shred, Full AD and still work. Lucian can do the same and work. But a champ like Vayne is limited. Why? Her kit is dependent on AS and that's perfectly fine.

Having champions that want to focus on something in particular is completely fine, I just find its boring that there is no decision to be made in terms of what you buy. There is very rarely an item that would be better in a certain situation for your usual first buy. What are your thoughts on Dead End Items, for instance Cloak and Dagger were added the same patch that Vayne was added, albeit later removed; while I did not play much Vayne at the time I could see circumstances where the two would work great together all for a little more than the cost of a zeal.

Anin7771 votes

{quoted}

Having champions that want to focus on something in particular is completely fine, I just find its boring that there is no decision to be made in terms of what you buy. There is very rarely an item that would be better in a certain situation for your usual first buy. What are your thoughts on Dead End Items, for instance Cloak and Dagger were added the same patch that Vayne was added, albeit later removed; while I did not play much Vayne at the time I could see circumstances where the two would work great together all for a little more than the cost of a zeal.

Just looked at Cloak and Dagger. It's a nice situational item but really weak by this Season's standards. Would be great on Vayne vs a CC heavy team so she wouldn't be locked down for too long but with how high dmg is, if she gets locked down for even 0.5 seconds, that can mean her death. I'd propose Zephyr. Movement speed makes dodging easier. No crit but since IE doubles crit, it shouldn't be a problem. Great AD and AS combination.

Badgerino1 votes

Well you have to look at it somewhat through a different lens, a full item at a much reduced cost should be a fair bit weaker for the unique advantage it may provide during the earlier parts of the game. In most cases an item like this is about securing a steady midgame while still providing a lot of key stats for your early game power. If more items like this existed it would be less cause to rush to huge item power spikes every game or fail trying to get there.

Anin7771 votes

{quoted}

Well you have to look at it somewhat through a different lens, a full item at a much reduced cost should be a fair bit weaker for the unique advantage it may provide during the earlier parts of the game. In most cases an item like this is about securing a steady midgame while still providing a lot of key stats for your early game power. If more items like this existed it would be less cause to rush to huge item power spikes every game or fail trying to get there.

Yeah I get what you mean. It's a good item for earlier parts of the game but it won't be favoured in this current state of league. Maybe it will when the game gets a bit more balanced to the point that early game lasts significantly longer.

MarkedOfKane1 votes

Can we maybe get some armor items that aren't made for countering attack speed/crit characters? Besides Dead Man's Plate?

XOXOXOXOXOXO1 votes

I love the thought and the idea of this, but having so many actives will overwhelm players. It also seems like building the same thing every game is how it goes. I feel like introducing champions that do the same thing but in a different style is all they are doing. Look at Jinx and Tristana. They do the same thing to an extent. They auto fast and provide AD damage over time. Look at Xerath and Lux. They spam abilities from long range and do bursty AP Damage. The builds will be similar because it's the same thing with different abilities. Tristana get's a bomb, while Jinx get's a rocket that slows. Xerath get's a stun that hits one person, Lux gets a Root that hits 2 people. It's similar things reskins. That is the root of your problem. It's hard to make champs crazy unique and balance the game at the same time. That would result in less champions too. The items are fine, but the stormrazor thing where if you don't rush it you automatically lose. That's absurd.

Badgerino1 votes

This is a whole other can of worms albeit another issue that we've seen be prevalent in league for a long time. That being said Riot is already working at reworking old champions to make them more "Unique". As such I'd like to keep this conversation focused on items rather than champions. Once you start talking about champions balance comes into question, which always devolves into a circlejerk. Looking for solutions to items and the league we have currently.

Faceroll Tactics1 votes

Dota 2 does items infinitely better.

Why?

Dota 2 items actually have meaningful actives that interact with more mechanics than “is it off cool down?”

HaIlMonitor1 votes

What does making more available options really do? Do you think it will make the game more balanced?

I personally think it will just make it more of a shit show because I know everyone and their dog hates items like Duskblade, but why wouldn't riot want an item like that? If a class is op they just nerf the items they use which makes it easier. Whenever they have done something like this it doesnt change anything. Like honestly look at the mage rework you brought up, I would bet that its like 80% build ludens, 19% Build Staff, and 1% build other item (tbh cant even remember the name.... But the thing is nothing changed. It just went from Morellos and Tear to Ludens or Tear....

Badgerino1 votes

What does making more available options really do? Do you think it will make the game more balanced?

Personally I'm trying to stay clear from "balance" because its such a subjective topic and at the same time totally up to Riot. Without clear conceptions of what new items could be we have no idea about the implications of balance. So long as Riot has the game and player's best interest I can only see a long term positive effect.

Like honestly look at the mage rework you brought up, I would bet that its like 80% build ludens, 19% Build Staff, and 1% build other item

So look a bit deeper than that, what is the inherent issue here? It's that the decision of building a specific item does not change on a game to game basis; X item will always be my first item because it is what is best in all cases. You'll want to make different items attractive for different in game scenarios. However you could say this is already true with item 3102 vs item 3157 yet the choice is so binary; should Riot add 1 more AP/MR and 1 more AP/Armor item into the game suddenly you're face with a decision as to which would benefit you more, so long as they hold the items to a reasonable and similar power level.

Let me give you a theoretical example of an item. At the moment the only choice we have for AP&Armor is item 3157 but what if there existed an item that was something like this:

Cost: 2700g +60 ability power +30 armor +5% movespeed Unique Passive - Upon taking 50% of your maximum health in physical damage in under one second become temporarily immune to all sources of physical damage for 1.5 seconds and gain a 50% decaying movespeed bonus. 200 Second Cooldown.

Suddenly what do you prefer, both are good, but which is better for your current game. I hope this gets my point across (Now obviously I'm no game designer and this is just an example, so lets not get specific about how good or bad it actually is as an item)

HaIlMonitor1 votes

I can understand that, but usually it is corner cases, which I agree would be nice. But is it worth Riots time? Like if they made QSS build into an AP item (which is requested pretty often), at that point I could see very seldom Banshees ever being built.

Like after reading the post all I see is "Add in 30 items to confuse new players for those 1 in 50 games you actually need said new item"

This could be the fact that I am an advocate for less is more in these games. I would rather everything have 1 or 2 builds (Like Rengar with Full damage, or more Diver style with tanky items) and less fluff. If something such as Malzahar ult is so oppressive mages build an AD item to counter it... Maybe Riot should look into changes up his ult vs adding in another item to make Malzahar basically worthless.

Badgerino1 votes

But is it worth Riots time?

Will Riot even question if its worth their time if we don't raise awareness of it being a potential issue with potential solutions?

Like if they made QSS build into an AP item (which is requested pretty often), at that point I could see very seldom Banshees ever being built.

I don't find the two to be of equal power level so I too can see this be the case, which is why I previously stated "so long as they hold the items to a reasonable and similar power level."

Like after reading the post all I see is "Add in 30 items to confuse new players for those 1 in 50 games you actually need said new item"

Fair enough, however would I ultimately would like to propose is a full shop rework. I also find the statement "confusing to new players" to be a bit of a moot point, there is already a lot to learn and explore within league that increasing the item pool by say 15-20 items would not really change anything to new players. Also, without large patches as such can we reasonably expect to see a steady income of new players to the game, or old returning players for that matter.

As for the 1 in 50 thing I'm not looking to suggest things like item 3056 but if you always have a good choice between 2 options of items at any stage of the game it perhaps becomes more like a 1/3 thing where your build adapts constantly based on what you experience on a game to game basis.

I would rather everything have 1 or 2 builds (Like Rengar with Full damage, or more Diver style with tanky items)

This is actually something I'm advocating for, build diversity should be encouraged, however with the way the shop exists now there is a lack of support and reason for champions to buy items outside of their expected 7-8 item range.

Malzahar ult is so oppressive mages build an AD item to counter it

I have done just this, build item 3139 on mages and item 3157 on ADCs and if anyone else has they should know how bad it feels. Heck I've built item 3025 on Caitlyn simply due to the lack of Armor items within the reasonable range for ADCs to purchase.

Yokkers1 votes

I like what you are getting at being that I also enjoy dota 2 ( mainly for the itemization )... However I will point out that Dota has suffered quite a bit by adding talents, there are heros you can't break the meta with anymore... I play exclusively ability draft when I play dota and because of how the talents work, I barely want to play anymore... if you get shafted with warlock in ability draft 3/4 of your talents are exclusive to your abilities, what league has is all the keystones etc, which is way more versatile then what you are implying about the items in Dota 2. I would also like to note, there are several champs in league who you can have very different builds to augment your ability/playstyle... Take Nasus, could go AD/AP/Tank/ or this secret build I conjured up that is an AOE tank, it involves zekes/cindercoat/abyssal mask/liandries for its core, all just adding to the over power your ult has.

I'll also toss this out there, I've played Leblanc/Ahri/Lulu/Janna/Bard/Brand ( and I'm sure many more ) ive played all of them CRIT ADC builds before and got A+ or higher... in the case of bard I actually got a penta-kill and will also point out that I'm usually top tier damage... Granted these types of builds don't snow ball nearly as well in summoners rift but the point stands nevertheless...

Badgerino1 votes

As for the first half of your post, League vs Dota as a whole is different conversation entirely.

there are several champs in league who you can have very different builds to augment your ability/playstyle

By no means am I saying there are not different builds for some champions in league like AP vs Tank Nunu for example, but its a question of how often those builds themselves change each game. For a majority of the time whether you're going one build or the other you will be building the same set of items each game.

I've played mages as AD

This really isn't the same argument as my post. For one this is generally considered trolling whether or not you do well with it, and two, you're now just building the Crit ADC item set SR/RFC/IE etc which is the exact mould I'm trying to break.

Yokkers1 votes

{quoted}

As for the first half of your post, League vs Dota as a whole is different conversation entirely.

By no means am I saying there are not different builds for some champions in league like AP vs Tank Nunu for example, but its a question of how often those builds themselves change each game. For a majority of the time whether you're going one build or the other you will be building the same set of items each game.

This really isn't the same argument as my post. For one this is generally considered trolling whether or not you do well with it, and two, you're now just building the Crit ADC item set SR/RFC/IE etc which is the exact mould I'm trying to break.

While I agree itemization is stagnant, you are cherry picking examples to fit your bias. Even building Lina ADC in Dota is largely considering trolling... Your point was that you could build various builds with Lina, " a mage playing as ADC." I can speak only for myself but I am always trying counter build people, if you really think getting zhonyas on Fiddle versus five AP is GOOD then aren't thinking outside the box enough, in almost every situation Fiddle would shine better versus 5 ap ( on aram ) by getting Abyssal mask... Even with Fiddle I consciously make the choice, are they squishy enough for the poke ludens offers to be worth or should I go liandries/rylais. Personally I think you just have a bias, I used to get trinity force on lucian well before it was even on his list of defensive items... You compare Dota 2 to league's items but then say that the comparison is a whole different conversation all together?? why draw contrast if you want to only view your opinion?

Badgerino1 votes

Of course I have a bias, I'm not denying that, but what has occurred is that you brought up systems in dota which were irrelevant to the conversation; talents are very much so a separate topic to items. Hero/champion design gives reason to create certain items yes but as soon as you expand the conversation towards these systems people will lose focus. And while you may criticize my bias, you as well have a bias where all your "evidence" to support build diversity is purely anecdotal and I would go as far as to say you are in a vast minority of player who play this way. The specificity of the examples you provide don't cover the broader stroke problem that most items are build out of necessity and not out of choice, either by power level or for lack of options.

Your point was that you could build various builds with Lina, " a mage playing as ADC."

The difference here is that the systems in place in dota work very different than in league, I never specifically said ADC lina nor did I ever make a one to one comparison to league's systems. Due to dota's shop and the way stats work it is not uncommen to consider bloodthorne or AC on lina thus turning you more into a right click carry, this does not annul the fact that you are still a spell casting mage, it's just that the decisions that you make in itemization during a game of dota can vastly change how you play and function as a hero.

Dingding1231 votes

You forgot to mention how runes created literally every meta build in the same way:

"you have BURST! USE IT! USSSEEEEE IIIIIIITTTTT"

Power Cosmic1 votes

The game caters to new adolescent players and not veterans.

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