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The Veigar buffs make him stronger, but don't solve the core post-rework issue—no skill interactions

CupcakeTrap·9/19/2015, 5:03:35 PM·57 votes·6,509 views

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Veigar_0.jpg

I appreciate that they're giving Veigar some more attention post-rework, but I believe it's misguided. The problem isn't that Veigar is strong or weak. Veigar was always kind of weak, but people played him because he was fun. New Veigar may well be stronger, but he's also much less interesting.

The fundamental problem of new Veigar is that his abilities no longer have any meaningful interactions. I don't mean hackneyed "new style" interactions like, "Q applies stacks of X, and W consumes stacks of X to empower R". I mean natural, old-style interactions. For instance, Veigar's old stun, if landed, rewarded Veigar by letting him land Dark Matter and deal extra damage.

New Veigar's abilities simply don't interact in any meaningful way. Yes, it's true, the new ragecage will set up a meteor hit—but it's not clear how anyone gets stunned by his new ragecage, which is now more of a zoning skill, unless the batteries in their mouse run out or they go afk while standing still. The new ragecage doesn't have that frustrating "hit with the edge and insta-stun" mechanic, which is itself a good change, but the problem is that now it relies upon the enemy being a complete idiot (or just unfamiliar with Veigar) to get stunned. That's bad design, IMO. Getting stunned is a big deal, and it shouldn't feel like a random accident.

So while I'm glad they're giving Veigar some attention, I think the focus should be less on him being powerful and more on him being interesting. There are tons of Champions stronger than Veigar, but I don't play them, because they're not interesting to me. Veigar's slated to become one of them.

A suggestion, to keep it constructive

For example, take Dark Matter. Reducing the delay makes it more reliable as a damage tool. It doesn't make it more interesting—just more powerful.

I'd rather see something like keeping the old delay, but adding a knockback away from the impact site, allowing Veigar to use it to knock people into the walls of Event Horizon and stun them. A stun via Dark Matter would feel satisfying and "earned"/"deserved".

Anyway. My main point: I care about Veigar being fun and interesting much more than I care about him being "strong".

119 Comments

A Superb Villain9/19/2015, 8:07:36 PM22 votes

I just think there is too much power invested in Event Horizon, your success in-game relies on whether or not it is used efficiently. Event Horizon is what allows Veigar to burst targets reliably or keep himself safe, it is a ridiculously powerful tool in teamfights that discourages dives and can easily divide a team. When used in conjunction with proper teamwork, Event Horizon becomes more devastating than his ult.

Alone, each ability can be extremely powerful, but there is absolutely no synergy in his kit beyond: land stun, drop all the bombs.

Trundle Bundle9/19/2015, 9:30:35 PM11 votes

Honestly, Doom Bots made me feel like a change to Dark Matter would give Veigar a ton more presence without necessarily adding to his single target burst. Specifically, seeing the multiple DM's falling down was terrifying, the sound was crazy, and it really made you worry about moving to the right position.

Obviously I'm not saying he needs to have a wave of full strength Dark Matters hit around him at a huge radius, but what if the skill was broken down into 3 casts per spell activation? You now have the opportunity to stagger the 3 casts of the spell out over the traditional delay on the spell, and they'll all still fall at once when that delay is over. Going with the Zyra flavor of damage regulation, the "first" cast to hit a target would cause half of what a dark matter currently does, and additional hits to the same target would hit for a quarter, so they add up to the full value.

Mechanically, it would make sense to have any unused charges deploy where you cast your last dark matter, so you'd only have to hit it once to continue to use it like it is on live and wouldn't have to be tremendously afraid of being locked out of the remaining casts. The end result however allows you to choose whether or not you want a very focused burst at a risk, a staggered AoE that's likely to cause more damage to multiple targets but less to targets individually, or try to lead a target into your other spells or hazards from the rest of your team. It doesn't just give Veigar a little bit more decision making, but it makes him visually more impressive and a bit more foreboding. You can't be exactly sure how many dark matter's are going to fall, and if there's only two showing up which one's the double?

The Yetii Rider9/19/2015, 8:50:57 PM8 votes

I think you're missing the point of Event Horizon. He's not supposed to stun with it, he's supposed to trap everyone inside a cage and have the enemy team too scared to try and move out of it. This can set up some amazing AOE skills (like throwing Event Horizon around a friendly Nunu just before he uses Absolute Zero).

Evewynn9/20/2015, 2:03:06 AM6 votes

I honestly think he's in a pretty good place. With an ability as powerful as an AoE 2.5 second stun, there should be plenty of ways to avoid it, and your reward for landing it is getting the guaranteed full-kit combo.

The ability also creates champion synergy between Veigar and champs who have displacements; hecarim, vayne, etc can all knock an enemy floundering in the cage into the side of the wall creating cool team moments and rewarding players for working together. If Veigar had his own means of displacement, this interaction would be much less valuable and interesting.

Veigar is a champ with clear strengths and weaknesses both in his kit as a whole and his individual abilities. Is he perfect? Maybe not, but I think other champs deserve priority over him when it comes to kits that need updating.

Hayaishi29/20/2015, 1:47:45 AM3 votes

Veigar simply isn't healthy, because the problem is his ultimate and event horizon, one was taken care of but his MAIN issue is that he doesn't feel particularly unique or fun to play, you just stun shit and blow shit up, if he has his ult up you can't go near him, or do anything aggressive because you'll die in the blink of an eye, it creates an oppressive play pattern, which is what Riot should've tried to fix, not his Q.