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Fix Tryndamere with conqueror rune (also Garen with Grasp of the Undying and other top lane oddities

B1GTYMER·1/2/2019, 4:41:00 PM·4 votes·1,860 views

With the ill-advised Runes Reforged system, you completely upset years worth of balance in the game. This is especially true in top lane. The champion Tryndamere is taking the conqueror rune (an alleged "sustained damage" rune), hitting minions twice in three seconds, and then spinning onto the other person, gaining an AD boost and true damage crits at level 1 or 2. Unless you know to expect it, you will give up first blood. In fact Tryndamere is so strong in lane right now that, like a few other champions such as Zoe, you need to study and think critically about the match up not to feed. For one of the strongest champions in the game late game, this is very wrong. As I said your Runes Reforged system upset the balance of the game (I have played top lane since season 1), and you have been notably slow to fix it. Once upon a time late game champions had weak early games, early game champions were strong in lane (and not because of sustain and runes like Grasp of the Undying, Second Wind, and the new Doran's Shield, e.g. Garen, who is another problem). I don't see how top lane could be anything but a mess right now, as you completely overhauled the game without considering fundamental things such as that conqueror is not a sustained damage rune at all in lane. It is a strange gimmick that awards players for hitting minions every 3 seconds in order to efficiently trade damage with other players, and makes for a bad experience. Grasp of the Undying and Conqueror are so overpowering that they are blurring the lines between champions. It was a very poor choice to have made. Tryndamere has become the conqueror rune, Garen has become the Grasp of the Undying Rune. When I lose to them I don't think I lost to either of the champions, I think I lost to their runes, which create unintentional oddities in the game, such as Garens with infinite sustain and Garens and Renektons tower hugging against a Tryndamere (not that that will save you, another unintended consequence of Runes Reforged is that Tryndamere has conqueror up for his entire ultimate when he is invulnerable...simply an arbitrary change with nothing to do with the champion or the previous years of balance at all.)

Change the conqueror rune and grasp of the undying rune and any other such runes to "in combat with champions for 4 seconds" and this will go a long way towards improving them. Of course I would scrap the whole system, as you have made a substantial error here. After over a thousand games in top lane, mostly in season one to three I think, I have a feel for the champions. You were opposed to the sustain in top lane, yet now we have a stronger Doran's Shield (unneeded), second wind (tolerable I suppose and comparable to older masteries, maybe) and Grasp of the Undying, which is being used as a burst attack and heal every four seconds in lane.

Anyway I'm sure the list could go on of other strange imbalances you have created in top lane. To be frank I have not been playing it as much as I once did, cause every time I go there it's the same gimmicks. Tryndamere bursting me with a "sustained damage" rune, and then tower diving (against slow, weak towers) to deliver true damage crits to me for 6 seconds while invulnerable while my Garen or other once strong early game champion cowers in fear, as I wait for the inevitable late game where Tryndamere kills my team 1v4, Garen (or that man that hits me with Grasp of the Undying every 4 seconds...and has some other abilities too). Why is it taking you so long to close up this exploit, or did you intend for top lane to be based around the mechanic of hitting minions every few seconds so that conqueror and grasp of the undying are up? Didn't you consider the effect that this would have on champions such as Tryndamere who get free critical strikes? Or did you think the strongest late game champion needed to have a terrifying laning phase as well? I had a sample size of Garen vs Tryndamere match ups in my memory of hundreds, and after only two in this new League of Legends I am sick of it. Even knowing what to expect I can't defend against it. The damage when he tower dives is unreal, and the tower is so useless that sometimes he doesn't even need his ultimate. Tryndamere vs. Garen was never like this. Tryndamere was not a deadly champion in lane. His goal in lane wasn't to score kills, it was to be able to farm. Now he just bombs out the whole top lane, double kills junglers and mids, split pushes and needs a whole team to kill him. I've seen this with other players on my team too, and Tryndameres on my team as well. This champion is permanently banned by me in all my games. Nevertheless if it is not a significant risk to play Nasus and Tryndamere in the top lane, there is something wrong with the game. That is one of the building blocks of League of Legends. They are like Troll Warlords and N'aix's that can't be shut down, specially with the new bounty system. I went 8-1 against a Nasus in lane the other day as Talon, but that one kill gave him 1000 gold. Late game he was easily winning 1v4. Same thing can easily happen with Tryndamere.

3 Comments

EbonyBladeJ881/2/2019, 8:39:42 PM2 votes

While Conqueror and Tryndamere are whole different beasts as subjects, as a Garen player that uses Grasp of the Undying, let me put in my two cents.

For Garen, there's not a whole lot of options when it comes to Keystone runes. Let's just look at Resolve, since that is USUALLY what I see Garen players take as their main path.

Grasp of the Undying- Deal 4% of my max health to heal 2%, and permanently gain 5 health with a basic attack around roughly every 4 to 5 seconds of being in combat.

Health is the stat that Juggernauts usually want to build (Alongside resistances), as their own base AD along with maybe one to two AD items like item 3071 or item 3078 is enough in the damage department. So, 5 health for free for simply doing what a Juggernaut is supposed to do, attack? Sure, I can get behind that.

Aftershock- Immobilize a champion to gain resistances, and then deal damage in a circle around you after a short delay.

If I remember correctly, Garen has no way of even proccing this Keystone. The Silence on his Q does NOT count as an immobilizing effect, so that can't proc it. Bonus Actives on certain items like item 3742 or item 3143 that Garen usually buys don't count for it either I believe. So he can't even USE this one at all, and taking it causes it to be switched for Grasp.

Guardian- Grant a shield to yourself and an ally upon using a unit-targeted ability on them.

Garen also has no way of proccing THIS Keystone either, as he has no abilities that affect allies. The only way he could proc it is by tanking a skillshot or something while in range of an ally. When you're up in top-lane in the laning phase, generally by yourself, that's not going to see much use.

So just in the Resolve tree, we can see that the only one that Garen really has, IS GotU.

Then, let's expand our study.

Looking at Electrocute in Domination, or Phase Rush in Sorcery, they both require 3 different attacks to proc them. So for Garen, that would be AA, then Q, then E, just as an example. I'm pretty sure that the pattern of attacks doesn't have to EXACTLY be that, but it Is the most reliable way of proccing them when one takes these Keystones.

These Keystone runes CAN work, though it's usually in niche situations where he needs what whichever keystone respectively gives, and it makes Garen more of a glass cannon than a durable warrior, just in my personal experience. If you were a Garen player that can proc these reliably, then great! More power to you. But that makes it more of a "Hit and Run" rather than the "In your face all the time" playstyle that Juggernauts are USUALLY supposed to be known for.

Then there's Predator in Domination. That requires Boots and a channeling time of 1.5 seconds. While the MS Boost can sync well with his Q, using it leaves him without a Keystone for almost 3 minutes, to a minute and a half, depending on his level.

Next, Dark Harvest. He has to have the opponent at 50% health or lower. While this isn't necessarily difficult for a Garen to do, if he's up against a person or team that can kite him, it's not the best option.

Then, Arcane Comet in Sorcery. It requires using an ABILITY to proc. Meaning for Garen, his Q, E or R. Not exactly difficult, but Arcane Comet isn't certain to hit EVERY time one uses it.

Now, Glacial Augment in Inspiration. A free slow every once in a while on an AA. Not bad, but he has items he can purchase that grant the same effect. item 3022 or the Momentum effect of item 3742 come to mind. item 3143 can do it in the form of an Active as well.

I know that the things mentioned above isn't every Keystone in every Rune path, but its the ones that I can think of that that a Garen player COULD choose to take. Granted, they could take ANY one they wanted, but these are the ones I think they would logically choose based on what he and his kit can do.

Last, but certainly not least is Precision.

Press the Attack- Gotta land 3 AA's in pretty much rapid succession. But, while some Juggernauts do (Like Trundle , Shyvana and some others) function on AA's, Garen for the most part, ISN'T one of them. He isn't known for fast AA's.

Lethal Tempo- More attack speed related stuff. Garen's not exactly a AA Juggernaut, he's more of a Caster, damaging with his abilities.

Fleet Footwork- A free heal and bonus movement speed. While the movement speed could be nice, his Q grants largely the same effect, and the heal really isn't that much; Grasp with the percentage heal is more reliable, since Garen will have, for the most part, a large amount of Health, and thus heal more THAT way than the flat amount that FF's heal gives.

Conqueror- Ahh, one that Garen can use effectively for a change! Although, with the Villain passive already granting true damage (Granted it's only on 1 champion at a time, the point nonetheless stands) all he can really count on it for is the AD boost, and if he is facing a champion that he can really use the True Damage conversion against.

This might be WAY too long of a response for your post, but I'll make it anyway.

LazyW0lf1/2/2019, 5:50:15 PM1 votes

{quoted}

Change the conqueror rune and grasp of the undying rune and any other such runes to "in combat with champions for 4 seconds"

The TL;DR^

Agreed, that's how they went about balancing Fervor in its OP state and it worked so well.