Kleptomancy Improvements

PotatoMine·11/17/2017, 8:10:05 AM·3 votes·581 views

Basically, make it work similar to spell thief's edge, rather than a trivial internal cool down like sheen it works on a stack system with no cool down between stacks(because the "cool down" is you have to cast a spell between each auto attack(hell you might even make it so you can build up stacks, details that could be playtested)).

What ever the details, the core concept is a stack system. Why? Well what are some of the current problems with Kelp right now? The clearest one is the delta in power it has on certain champions(mainly Ezreal/GP). Why is this? Well clearly because they have abilities that can easily apply it, but lets dig deeper. Why is it easy for them to apply it while it's hard for others? Ezreal can do it from long range on a short cool down, and while GP's range is not as long it's still a similar reason: He can repeatedly apply it without putting himself at risk. Ok, so it works well on a few champions, what's the harm in that? That forces them to become dependent on the keystone, and forces the keystone's power to be gated by the ability for a few champions to abuse it. We want to have the healthiest design for the most champions, so(and for any game designers in the audience I know this is a bit of a simplification) we want to reduce the keystone's reliance on repetition, because by doing so we can also reduce it's reliance on safety.

One of the major problems holding Kelp back is it's really wonky incentive patterns. Lets assume I'm not Ezreal. In order to use kelp, what do I need to do? I have to cast a spell, ok fine so far, but then I need auto attack the enemy. This puts me at risk, but all I need is one auto attack, so once I have my auto attack my incentive is to now back out, but that is often not a good idea because I've already put myself at risk and a trade resulted...but I don't want to actually fight in that trade since Kelp is nearly worthless in trades. Sure in trades you can get more applications, but the payoff is not tell after the fight, and it takes a LOT of klep procs to make up for losing a trade that another keystone would have won you, additionally the enemy also got a payoff of some kind from their keystone, be it damage straight up or the "extra damage" they get from being able to win the trade more easily from being more powerful in the trade. But it does not stop there, because there is basically no cool down on Klep the success case is apply it constantly. And trading eats health, and the less health we have the less often we can trade else we have to go back or die. So...we want to apply this as many times as humanly possible, and to do that we want to start trades that we actually don't want to fight in. Brilliant :P But WAIT, there's more! The fact that the potential gain from the keystone is not capped at either end creates poor play patterns for enemies. The success case for an enemy is for the klep holder to never get anything from it, so any time the enemy applies it is a punishing fail state. It already sucks to take damage, but more than the damage is the feeling that your just making your enemy stronger. It disrupts normal trading patterns because an enemy wants to either never fight or fight to the death. Trades are an important part of League for a lot of reasons.

Enter stacks. They solve all of these problems, all primary from the fact that there is a much more constrained success case. The largest problem though is it's creeping into the flavor space of spell thief's edge, and it makes the ability even more complicated to understand. I was going to go into more depth on how stacks meet these goals, but it's late my time and I think Riots game designers should be able to fill in the blanks from here so I'm going to sleep. I know this would take a good amount of testing and don't expect to see a large design change to the key stone next patch or anything, but consider trying it on internal testing.

5 Comments

Zed genius11/17/2017, 8:11:32 AM2 votes

or make it proc on autos only and not on on-hit spells (Ezreal Gangplank )

Yrzen11/17/2017, 9:36:34 AM1 votes

Kleptomancy Gangplank isn't problematic. It doesn't actually have a large (or even positive) power delta relative to Grasp of the Undying, according to win rates. His other keystone choices (Summon: Aery and Arcane Comet) are also within a 0.6% win rate difference compared to Kleptomancy. (Aery is actually higher than Kleptomancy as well, though that's likely due to its overtuned nature at the moment)

Done251/21/2018, 1:42:30 AM1 votes

Bump. I'm good with this. How about "Using an ability generate a stack of Kleptomancy (5 second cool down, max 3 stacks.)" as a mechanic? This makes it less potent on low CD champs like GP/Ezreal, while still keeping the flow of "Use spell, then attack".

Perhaps make it such that the spell has to hit a champion in order to generate a stack if need be so people don't just spell spam in fountain. Also, double the effect for melee champs since it's so hard for them to apply it.