Zyra support, the elephant in the room.

Chicken Rave·10/14/2016, 11:36:41 PM·17 votes·2,194 views

I did read "Before you make a post about balance..." so here's the checklist: Skill level: dominant at both mildly low elo (mine) and pro, (SKT vs. RNG, game 1) check. Professional play: SKT vs. RNG, game 1, check. Design core: Dominant in the pro game I'm currently watching. Check. Reasoning: I'm gonna tell you what's wrong. Check. Current environment: Flew under the radar before Worlds, but I sure did feel her dominance in the meantime. Check. Prioritize discussion: Heh, we can talk counterplay. We might end up highlighting how it's lacking on this champion. Six checks, guess my post is valid.

Which support never lost a game at Worlds so far? Which support abuses the fact that winning the lane makes people win the game? Which champion is currently suffocating SKT? Zyra, Rise of the Thorns. Since her mage update, she became 80% less fun to play against. Then, she got a base damage buff, and from this point I never had fun laning against a Zyra support. I never will. Her E was already annoying before her update, now her whole kit just got worse for her enemies. She's just a fun killer, simple as that, and I think the balance team should watch out for that kind of effect on players because they might switch to OW or that new game in beta that some LoL streamers play in queue.

The passive makes Zyra spawn seeds, Illaoi style. Up to 8 can be placed, the Illaoi intensifies. "Enemies can step on them!", you'd say, "Here's your counterplay!" sure, get hit with the bind with the least counterplay, and get chunked because you tried to deal with her free ability. The seeds can become Spellthief proc monsters (Heimerdinger style) by using a single ability, costing 60 to 90 Mana with the potential to grow several plants. The Q deals AoE damage, and makes the seeds in that area become long-ranged damage dealers. The W allows you to control where the seeds spawn, and increases the max HP of the plants. Yup, as if enemy ADCs and Supports needed to spend more time killing up to 8 damage dealing plants. The E is just the worst: firstly, it roots all enemies in a line. No, you can't stand behind minions like a Morgana bind. No, 2 minions are not enough, she's more than Lux. And good luck when it comes to stepping on the seeds when you almost reach it and you end up rooted and having to deal with a newly spawned plant that deals the same damage as the other one, but trades its long range with a slow. Yup, you don't survive unless you flash, most of the time. And finally you have the ult, the wonder. Firstly, you deal damage as soon as the thorns spread. 180 magic damage at rank 1, that is. Then, if you can't get out because of the Rylai and the E plants, you get knocked up for a full second.

I'd love to see you try ganking her, by the way. Many ally junglers died along with the ADC and me because we tried to stop her dominance. First the jungler gets rooted, then she spawns the long-ranged plants to chunk the bot laners down, and turns out we just fed 3 kills to the bot lane. We're supposed to deal with up to 8 resistant plants that deal up to 91.2 damage per second (23.2 at level 1) each, AP scaling aside in case that support doesn't have a mid laner complex, +50% simply by pressing R in the right area, but you also have to deal with Zyra herself and the ADC. That's what kills all the fun for the enemy team: you're just overwhelmed, suffocated, and you lose your bot lane 100% of the time. Don't think I'll ever pick this 0 dignity champ, by the way. I have standards. The elephant in the room is Zyra, the lane killer. Let's hope the next PBE cycle will fix the problem she is. You might want to look into cancelling her damage buff, that's a nice start. She'd go back to being just 80% less fun to play against. But I think the E needs a shank that adds counterplay, right now it's absurd. I have to adapt my rune pages by adding a fair share of magic resist, but it's not enough to deal with her.

What do you guys think will bring Zyra to a state of balance? Could it be the removal/reduction of the slow on her E plants? The ult's damage dealt along with the knockup instead of when it spreads out? Maybe the shank on her E I mentioned? A base damage reduction? An update cancellation Kog'Maw style? Feel free to reply with which nerf would restore Zyra to a state of balance in your opinion.

27 Comments

Liofa10/15/2016, 12:01:46 AM15 votes

Zyra's update was straight up retarded. They lowered her damage across the board while making it next to impossible to avoid her damage. Then they buffed her damage. Just another case of Riot changing shit for the sake of change without thinking or really caring about how things would turn out.

MunchCrunchLunch10/15/2016, 1:51:31 AM6 votes

you dodged the Q. well thats nice. my plants will still proc thunderlords and chunk 1/3 of your hp at level 4

Bladerunner777710/15/2016, 3:45:26 AM5 votes

It's called a meta shift

The meta contains a lot of "champions that run straight at you" in the words of Wolf, that is why Zyra is excelling in lcs.

At the beginning of the preseason when AD was super OP, Malphite suddenly spiked in winrate. "Malphite OP!"

Additionally, Zyra will always be OP in low elo for two reasons:

  1. She's a support, and low elo supports suck at supporting so they have a really hard time actually winning by doing support-y things

  2. She's a support that can build full damage and carry. Since most low elo players don't know how to do support-y things, they can easily win by doing mid lane-y things and killing everything in sight. This isn't too difficult considering their lane opponent is at a disadvantage if they aren't playing a damage support as well (because a lot of them aren't good at support-y supports).

I'm not talking out of my ass, I actually climbed out of Bronze last season by spamming a ton of Zyra games because I could easily win lane and carry teamfights by myself (because she is a damaging support)

runedara10/15/2016, 7:17:20 PM3 votes

You act like she doesn't have any bad match ups. There are 9 support champions that have a >50% win rate vs her. 5 of them have over 53% win rate vs her. If you first pick thresh guess what I'm going to pick zyra every time. If I see a Soraka or Nami I won't. I will say I am biased as a zyra main but I do know her match ups.

Fairyfleur10/15/2016, 10:41:30 PM3 votes

I feel you overestimate Rampant Growth, it only stores two buds; taking 16 seconds for each to form. In addition, I got the feeling it controls your passive, which it does not. Grasping Roots deals very low amounts of damage on top of its slow travel time. Her e also only roots for something like .65-.75 seconds at rank one, and you're comparing that to Morgana's or Lux's, while only hit a limited amount of enemies, travel faster and root for 2-3 whole seconds.

resumed10/15/2016, 4:53:56 AM3 votes

zyra hard counters two things:

  1. tank supports
  2. hard engage

two things are meta at professional level:

  1. tank supports
  2. hard engage

damn zyra broken!

also zyra will always be good at low elo because she deals an insane amount of damage and nobody respects it because she has a sightstone and will literally just let you burst them

YuGiHo10/15/2016, 5:02:37 AM2 votes

You act like any Harass type support is any diffrent

DarkRitual10/15/2016, 1:40:30 AM2 votes

She is strong, but certainly not unbeatable. My options for nerfs that won't completely ruin her: Put a delay on plants spawned from Q being cast nearby. Reduce radius that seeds will spawn from Zyra. Reduce invulnerability time before seeds can be stepped on to kill.

Tipitonmine10/15/2016, 1:21:47 AM1 votes

Do with her what heimer's turrets do, dont let them proc Keystones.

Sniper 010/15/2016, 11:59:35 PM1 votes

You do realize that the opposing team pick Karma both times right? Zyra is being used for a counterpick rather than her being that overwhelmingly dominant...

Yes I'm biased but you're grossly ignoring any sort of reasoning behind Zyra being picked other than "ohh my god she's op".

Samflash310/15/2016, 1:04:36 AM1 votes

Thank you. I hate this version of Zyra because of how her seeds never stop spawning.

Here's my QQ thread earlier this week http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VnasauBW-i-think-reworked-zyras-frustrating-to-play-but-haunted-zyra-thats-just-straight-up-unfair?sort_type=best

Swarovsko10/15/2016, 3:29:10 AM1 votes

I think she needs a rework. I'm a support main and I'm really disappointed by Zyra's mini rework. I was expecting more from Riot. She's boring, broken as fuck and braindead (you don't land the q? Nevermind, plants will still deal demage, even tho the idea is cool)... I mean, from the people who reworked a boring, broken as fck and braindead champion (old Fiora) into a fun, strong and still playable champion (Fiora right now) i was expecting more. I just hope she'll gets reworked, I don't think the nerfs will make her playable (like Taliyah etc) because when Riot nerfs too much the champ literally dies.

I'm not a native speaker, sorry for my bad english.

Branagen10/15/2016, 12:17:06 AM1 votes

I'm guessing Zyra sales were down, so they needed to buff RP income.

Errastas10/15/2016, 3:38:51 PM1 votes

Was waiting for this post.