A 17-Page Color Coded Shaco Rework -- Looking for Intelligent Feedback from the Community

AD Ezreal·10/26/2015, 5:21:05 PM·91 votes·29,037 views
Shaco Rework v1.0

I've spent the last couple months working on a Shaco rework because I adore the character, the massive amounts of outplay potential he has, and the fact that he thrives on thinking ahead. At this point I consider the first draft complete, and I am ready to get feedback from other design and balance minded players.

I'm looking for answers to the following questions in particular (but please feel free to bring up other topics): -What needs to be changed? -What seems to strong or too weak? -Are there any special case interactions I seem to have overlooked? -What concerns do you have? -What do you think works? -What seems like it will be fun? -What seems like it will be frustrating? -What sub goals did I fail to address properly? -What do you think the new AP Shaco will be like? -Do you have any additional thoughts or ideas?

I do want to note that I got a lot of feedback and several ideas from the user Workshop Shaco, and his rework, which contained the first iteration of his new passive in particular.

Thank you for your time and thoughts on the matter. :)

Edit: So far the response has been very positive. I'm honored to see that people find this to be a solid rework, and there has been some great feedback so far. If you find the rework to be worthwhile, please consider sharing it with friends, because the more opinions and viewpoints I can get, the better job I can do with revising!

118 Comments

TotalJerk10/27/2015, 2:10:55 AM21 votes

17 pages

Heh...

ZGM Dazzling10/27/2015, 2:30:50 AM12 votes

how cool would it be if Riot took this rework and put it on the PBE for a bit to test it out

Saianna10/27/2015, 6:12:34 AM10 votes

When i though about shaco rework I came up with this idea:

Both Shaco and his clone trow Shiv poison at target enemy. Clones shiv deals 1/2 of damage.

That way it'll be harder to see which one is fake.

DrugsForRobots10/27/2015, 7:29:01 PM6 votes

Upvoted for Shaco. I am impressed with the amount of effort you've put into this, it's nice seeing another Shaco main who cares so deeply. You highlight a lot of Shaco's problems and his strengths. This alone makes your post a nice reference work, so kudos. You also quote some Reds but I would link to their quotes or at least indicate who said what just for clarity. ;)

That being said, here are my thoughts (brace yourself for some constructive criticism):

Your new proposed passive (Manic Attack) works, and I can see the flavor behind it. However, I don't think it is a particularly elegant design. It is full of ratios (including some referencing his other abilities) and per level scaling as well as a slow and move speed buff. It seems overloaded to me, and may or may not be too powerful (you say 'bonus' damage, so I assume it stacks on top of the normal auto damage) even with a damage cap.

For his Q you've reduced the mana cost, which is nice, but you've nerfed the stealth hard. I will agree that stealth is unfun to play against, and can be downright unfair sometimes, but I don't think this is the way to 'solve' that issue. As it stands, with your proposed change he wouldn't have much time to get into position for an attack. You aren't adding counterplay for his opponent so much as hamstringing Shaco. :( Also, you should note, that the 3.5 seconds is exactly the amount of time it takes to travel from river brush to top / bot lane brush while still stealthed with basic Boots.

With his W, you've given it a longer duration, which is approve of, but it might be too long. You box limit does offset this somewhat. You've added an AD ratio, which while I don't think makes sense thematically, I won't belittle. You give some QoL buffs with the AoE negation / damage reduction. Not bad. The laugh radius is some neat counterplay, but even then your version his boxes still suffer from the same low counterplay as they do currently. His opponents just happen to be walking by and then they're feared. Nothing they could really do about it. No real response, no telegraphing, no reaction time. Nothing, unless you consider spending 100-250 gold as 'counterplay', that is. Also, you've got this (IMO) forced interaction and 'synergy' with his boxes marking his target so his E can deal bonus % health...?

So now his E. Something many proposed Shaco reworks scrap entirely or comment on needing it to change. I agree it probably should be changed. The word 'poison' is... problematic. You give it an attack speed slow instead of the minion blind, so that's OK I guess. There's that weird interaction with his boxes that I don't get but maybe it's just me. You've bumped up his base damages which I think he needs and gave him a stronger slow to count for his permaslow being gone. Let's talk about that for a second. His permaslow, while 'unfun', is very important. It lets him stick to his target and, more importantly, it lets Shaclone stick to his target. Micro'ing the clone isn't the smoothest feeling in the world as it is, and it's already easily kiteable being naturally slower than Shaco, and worse still, you can't get it to peel for you or anyone with this change.

And finally, Shaclone. Poor guy has an even lower leash radius and he doesn't stick around nearly as long. ;( On the bright side, you've given him a nice QoL buff that would enable wall jumps with Ulti, so I approve of that change at least. I don't care for the % health damage on the explosion (why must everything be % health these days?) and the blind, while helpful (what buff wouldn't be helpful?), doesn't strike me as necessary or flavorful, though I guess it could be. Also, you've nerfed the explosions base damage, which was already unimpressive. And for some reason you won't let Shaclone blink back to Shaco in a puff of smoke (as though he used Deceive) which could be / is one of Shaco's best tricks! Having Shaclone appear out of nowhere to join a fight or explode in someones face is brilliant. Having explode on Shaco's death, while helpful, doesn't seem to encourage skill (to me). 'I know you messed up and died but at least you took someone with you (maybe) because #Mechanics #ProPlays.' You also say (I'm paraphrasing) "Having Shaclone be unable to leave Shaco's leash radius means his escape is as far away as possible (?) and encourages skill on behalf of the Shaco player (??) and offers increased counterplay (?!?)" I'm sorry, but I can't imagine how. I mean, I'm trying to workout, with the mental impression you've given me, different scenarios that play out like you seem to imply they would and I just can't think of how this is a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Shaco having more counterplay to his kit, but I don't get how this does that. Also, one more neat thing about the way Shaco currently works on Live - say you're approaching Drag Pit from blue base. If you've already used your ulti (like in a teamfight or skirmsih or w/e) and Shaclone is following you, you can send him away, jump Dragon wall with Q, and have him reappear beside you to help with dragon.

Man that's a lot of text. But wait, there's more!

If you haven't read it already, I recommend reading the Reddit post The Real Tragedy of Shaco. Dude's message is a strong one, and one worth considering. You love Shaco, that much is obvious, but do your changes help him for the better? Or do they push him toward being just another Zed, Rengar, or Talon? That's what I fear. You also see, on every post about Shaco, a few players saying 'No, don't change my Shaco! Q.Q ". They've got a point. We must be careful (as Riot has been) with changing him too drastically, as we could effect the way he plays with even minor changes. Not that that's a bad thing, but it is something to keep in mind.

You ask a lot of questions, and I wish I had time to answer them all, but then I'd be the one writing a 17 page paper on Shaco. Plus I have to go soon.

I do want you to consider something, though. You've approached 'fixing' Shaco from a mechanical point of view, it seems. What about his thematic? His flavor? Who is Shaco really? And more to the point, what should Shaco be? Have you ever considered it deeply? Or has our Jester fooled you as well all these years...

I'll leave you with this. You can be the judge. I'm curious to know what you think. It seems like a reasonable argument to me. Maybe it'll help inform your designs as well.

Stay frosty, -DFR

RisenDarkKnight10/26/2015, 11:52:05 PM3 votes

Seems really cool overall. A couple comments/questions: How does the new w passive work (7% max hp damage on a target marked by his boxes if E is off cooldown)? Does he get one auto attack for max hp damage or ever auto until he casts E? If only one (which would make sense), when can he next use the passive? Does he need to cast E or does it have an internal cooldown? (If it has a seperate cooldown it should be listed somewhere visible to shaco in game). Also, I'm going to assume the damage is capped against monsters. Also, can he boxes mark multiple targets if they are hitting different people allowing shaco to chose who to assasinate? Secondly, I worry he'll be a little too complex now. Most champions can be picked up somewhat after a couple games but I feel like people won't even understand his whole kit after 5 games now. I also feel like he will be difficult to balance with such a high skillcap (see Yasou, Azir, new Gankplank). He may be OP at high level play while too weak for Bronze/Silver level players or at least players who have played less than 25 games with him. Anyway, I hope Riot checks this out and uses most/all of your ideas in the shaco rework!

DeadPuddle10/28/2015, 2:10:01 AM3 votes

LOT OF FEEDBACK INCOMING

I disagree with most of the problems your listing. none seem to apply to shaco.

Stifling in lane (overpowered early game)

How? in AD form he does burst damage but is squishy and doesn't trade well in prolonged fights

In AP form you die if you follow him onto his boxes.

Uncatchable split pusher

So is zed, split pushing can be countered by simply being in the pushing lane under tower. it's not a good strategy as your relying on your enemys to react stupidly. if they react correctly you occomplish nothing.

Can lay traps that murder you without a chance to counter

Oracles lens turns boxes off

Assassin who can’t team fight

Only half true, yes he's squishy like any assassin is but the issue is you can counter his back line dive with pink ward and hard cc. His problem is invisibility being easily countered with a 100 gold item. its either really strong if he's invis or a massive vulnerability is he's seen, this is something wrong with the invisibility mechanic more so then shaco himself, riot need to add a damage reduction buff to champs while there invisible so even if there caught there not punished to the point of being one shot.

Permanent slow

Used to stick to a target, given his backstab damage this is needed, not a problem.

Ambusher who can’t be countered

Pinks, sweepers, warding deeper

Poor mid game

Agreed but why is his mid game poor? this is how to target an issue and solve it. is it his boxes having no scaling HP? does his mid game damage fall off if hes not snowballing?

Can’t carry well if fed

Again your pointing out an issue but not finding what's causing it.

Uncatchable if played correctly

This is actually a problem. The devs justify his squishy HP by how elusive he is. but pinks and oracles 100% counter this removing his strength and leaving him with only his balanced weakness.


Your Sub Goals

Lower early snowball potential

Now you're deciding what you want to do as a goal which is good but I don't see anything that describes what makes shaco snowball that your going to target

Increase dueling and assassination potential without making Shaco overpowered

Dueling and assassination are two totally different things, you can't increase them both at the same time.

Dueling is a back and forth damage trades with auto's and abilities, champs like fiora, Jax, Master Yi, Tryndamere are all great at dueling, they do consistent damage with no massive burst and use abilities to disrupt opponents damage output to give them an advantage.

Shaco isn't designed for this in any way. Q puts you in position for burst backstab damage. His W drops a box to deter enemy's from chasing him or to shut down an escape route, His E is more burst and the passive slows targets during gank's (the enemy is running full pelt at this stage and is NOT trying to trade damage but escape from the gank) and his ult allows you to gank up on an enemy or escape unwanted situations. I'm not going to discuss building him as a bruiser because that's simply not where he excels. you can stick armor on talon and make him a bruiser but it's not as strong as a full assassin build now is it.

Increase counterplay

You want to increase his counterplay? he's already rendered almost completely useless by pink wards and knowledgeable players who know how to spot the clone, that's everyone in plat and above btw. this is the exact issue with shaco atm. Players in low elo get crushed by him because they don't know how to counter him and he's pretty useless in high elo because players do. you give him buffs and he's balanced for high elo but snowballs like mad in low elo. he needs to stay at the same level of counter play but have LESS negative results when he is counter played (ie a pink spot's him and he's one shot, players ignore the clone and kill the real shaco)


GETTING INTO THE CHANGES

YES fix the shaco bugs

MANIC ATTACK

30% + 5% per level + 30% AP + Deceive passive + backstab bonus & slowing the target 2.5% per level for 2 seconds & gain movement speed 2.5% per level for 2 seconds

GOD THIS IS A LOT TO GO THROUGH. For context I have to compare it to the old crit

Old Shaco 40% - 60% - 80% - 100% - 120% commonly scaled between level 8 - 13

New Shaco 30% - 35% - 40% - 45% - 50% - 55% - 60% - 65% - 70% - 75% - 80% - 85% - 90% - 95% - 100% - 105% - 110% - 115% between level 1 - 18

Stacked on top of that is + 30% AP (which I can't understand because full AP shaco's don't like to dive in for auto attacks and play him as a trap mage throwing daggers using his Q for escapes)

Stacked on top of THAT is the decisive passive (5% more damage per level) now i can throw this into the mix at the approperate levels we have

New Shaco 30% - 40% - 45% - 50% - 55% - 60% - 65% - 75% - 80% - 90% - 95% - 105% - 115% - 120% - 125% - 130% - 135% - 140% between level 1 - 18

My thoughts.

This is a horrible idea. So you carved out the damage from his Q, changed it to a flat damage buff instead of crit, made it more commonly occur with a reset mechanic. the result a ridiculous snowballing machine. Shaco's 20% backstab damage is part of the reason he snowballs and also starves. If he's fed its a 20% bonus to the great damage he's doing with his bought items, if he gets no kills its a 20% bonus to squat, he does little to no damage without items so the bonus is also bad. you've amplified that kit issue 10 fold. not only that its flat % bonus damage. so what happens if he crits??

check this out. let's say he's level 10 with a ravenous hydra and an infinity edge and crits with a backstab

Old Shaco 85 from his level + 155 from items * 250% from crit + 20% from backstab = 600 + 120 = 720 damage

New Shaco 85 AD from his level + 155 from items * 250% from a crit + 90% from his passive + 20% from backstab = 600 + 540 + 120 = 1260 damage

You honestly think that jump in damage is balanced??

What about if he's fed and has a trinity force too.

New Shaco 85 AD from his level + 155 from items + Trinity * 250% from a crit + 90% from his passive+ 20% from backstab = 600 + 480 + 540 + 120 = 1740 damage for a single auto. yep thats balanced :p


Q: Deceive

Cost: 90 / 80 / 70 / 60 / 50 mana 65 / 60 / 55 / 50 / 45 mana

You said he was too strong early and you just buffed him early. now he can Q for days.

Passive: If Hallucinate is active, Shaco can hold R then press Q to vanish in a puff of blue smoke, becoming untargetable and replacing himself with his clone after .5 seconds, and exploding it in the process. This reveals Shaco if he is stealthed.3

I have no idea what this changes other then let you explode the clone early which leaves it with No Counterplay something you yourself said shaco was lacking.

New Effect: Casting Jack in the Box or Hallucinate does not break stealth.

Your ult already doesn't remove you from stealth and casting a box while stealthed gives away your location. this does nothing and is not needed.


W: JiTB

Cost: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 mana 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 mana

Again buffing him early letting him slowball.

Cooldown:~~ 16 seconds~~ 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 for each consecutive box

You just removed top lane AP shaco from the game

45 / 60 / 75 / 90 / 105 (+ 15% AP) (+ 5% bonus AD)

The issue with boxes isn't their lack of damage but the consistency of their damage. this is not needed and further removes AP shaco from the game. now you don't need AP just AD and levels.

Passive: The cooldown for Jack In The Box is increased by 2 seconds for every Box that is currently active. Passive: Up to 3 / 4 / 5 boxes (At levels 1 / 6 / 11) can be placed at one time. Expired boxes, and boxes exceeding the limit, disappear in a puff of blue smoke (not seen through fog of war).4

AD jungle start is ruined but clear speed becomes faster after level 1. shaco can no longer early invade or gank faster than any other jungler. there are now less reasons to play him. an unneeded and probably unwanted change any shaco main would hate to see.

New Effect: Boxes prioritize Shaco’s current target.

Boxes already do this.

New Effect: Boxes now take 75% reduced AoE and DoT damage during the 1.25 second delay before they enter stealth.

They can still be one shot by champions and monsters, this doest fix shaco's team fighting at all, boxes would need scaling HP to work in team fights.

New Effect: Boxes are now placed instantly (easier to block predicted skillshots).

Nice interesting idea adding more skill and depth to the champion.

New Effect: Clicking on Shaco shows how many boxes are currently placed.

Gives away if he's real or a clone?

New Effect: If Jack in the Box is not placed in brush, it will quietly cackle with excitement once an enemy is within its laugh radius. This effect can only happen once per box.

Why? what possible buff or nerf does this offer? it gives away that shaco is nearby ruining his invasions and laning tactics.

My Thoughts

Your removing AP shaco from the game and ruining his jungle start, I have no idea why? ruins his laning as well seen as the boxes gives away there presence with a laugh. this change is unneeded, unwanted and I don't see a point it in.

boxes are not teemo shrooms, there damage stacks so making them last 120 seconds is absurdly OP, there free wards too. massive buff with no counterplay again.


E: % Max health damage

Nothing more to be said, your not reworking shaco your buffing everything he has.


R: again % missing health damage and further movement.

This is NOT a rework. you just buffed everything shaco has and called it a rework

I would suggest you scrap everything and start again. find the root of shaco's issues (his dependency on gold which as a jungler he can't get, his passives fluctuating value depending on if he's snowballing or not and his lack of late game scaling due to box's damage being unreliable and his lack of escapes from teamfights)

Jus Clownin10/28/2015, 12:08:25 AM2 votes

I like Shaco the way he is.. But he needs some FIXES.. not a rework. For one his clone needs to mimic him. It needs to have buffs showing (if shaco has them, even if its APPEARANCE only). It needs to throw shiv's when shaco throws shivs. Right now the ultimate can be rendered completely useless if you have a buff - which for a jungle main character seems kind of counter intuitive.

Yes. Shaco is annoying. he is a troll Champion.. But honestly - thats what hes intended to be. He is a DEMON JESTER. And when you have one/Fight against one most often its a career shaco (who is pretty good at it, this is why people hate playing against him) or isnt the best (And thus this is why people hate playing with shaco).

He falls out of line with most other champions. In team fights his job is to make the carries dissapear. Deceive in, backstab the carry, Pop hydra - flash out (if you run flash like I do). Repeat. OR.. he split pushes and forces the enemy to peel resources to stop him.

Changing his underlying mechanics will basically make him not shaco anymore.

Backstab Passive is in a good place - It requires you to think before you come out of deceive rather than just walk up and stab someone in the face. It gives you more damage and in a team fight setting often puts you at greater risk (As you are further from the rest of the team). Deceive is in a good place. Its countered by sight wards. If you're against a shaco and nobody has these shame on you. Boxes are in a good place - They give an element of planning to the character rahter than simply jump in, kill, jump out. Shiv is in a good place - It's not very high damage if AD, but is practically the main source of damage if AP. Clone is not in a good place. The ultimate can be completely negated by a BUFF on YOU.

JasonWildBlade5/22/2016, 8:24:03 PM2 votes

2 passives, plus 2 bonus passives for each basic ability. Nobody needs 8 passives.

DrPepperholic10/28/2015, 7:35:54 AM2 votes

i read the "problems" part of the doc and closed it. many of what you listed are mostly false i've played with and against many a shaco and he is a strong champion if the player is good. you want a champion that a 5 year old can play which will never be balanced or too boring to even play(most adcs fit this) and no he cant beat everything like you surely wanting. but that is not balance that's like saying teemo isn't the weakest champion in league. and i would hate for a teemo rework to happen because like rest of the reworks it would break the best parts of the champion and a rework no matter what you think will be good ends up being something different and less fun or more op which ends up being perma banned in ranked. so reworking shaco not a good idea in my very important opinion

Blade of Justic10/31/2015, 9:47:18 PM2 votes

I feel like this is everyone's reaction when they see "17 pages"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnqbAsAA0U8

Ubermacht10/27/2015, 7:03:59 AM2 votes

OR. OR. We can just delete the champion that causes the most cancer in the game.