My thoughts on Quinn

Linkwithasword·Jul 18, 2017·5 votes·1,652 views

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Quinn_0.jpg

Quinn is a champion who, although I only got her around eight days ago, I feel as though i can see a lot of problems with her from both a gameplay perspective and from an Identity perspective.

Looking into her gameplay, Quinn's issue is that she is reliant entirely on her ability to assassinate (which happens to be the only thing she is useful for in combat for the most part) using only two abilities due to her having two non-combat abilities in the forms of her W and her R. Because of the fact that she either Can burst someone with either AA -> Q -> AA or AA -> E -> AA or some variation of either of those combos, there is either very little counterplay because she can just instantly kill you (like here where she was literally able to run through lane to kog'maw and kill him before he could even move to react). The other option for how she works is if she cannot kill someone in one combo (Passive -> AA -> Q -> AA -> E -> AA), and if this is the case then she is largely a completely worthless champion because she cannot jungle (her ganks rely on her burst and movespeed), she cannot top (her lane presence relies on her harassment in lane and her ability to zone enemies out of CS, and even though she can do that without her burst, what she cannot do is do what she does best after laning phase in top lane and become a roaming assassin to create map pressure and force enemies into thinking they have a numbers advantage when they do not. She cannot mid without her burst because she cannot do the galio thing where she has the utility to pull it off without burst, she makes for an awful support because her kit has no real utility aside from a disrupt, a displace, and her Q's Nearsighted, and her ability to ADC is practically nonexistent with her current kit because she gets outranged and out-harassed by any other ADC.

To sum up, from a gameplay perspective her current kit only works when she is broken, because she either can oneshot people before they can react, or she cannot oneshot people before they can react, and she can't effectively do anything else if she can't (or at least not anything that would be done better by champions like Tryndamere and Jax), because of this i feel she needs a rework

In my opinion a lot of the issues with Quinn's gameplay comes from Riot not really seeming to understand what Quinn is. What i mean by this is that they seem to have wanted her to be an ADC, but the kit they gave her was half-ADC and half-assassin whilst being balanced around being ADC, making her not reliable enough to be good as a mid-laner, not built well enough to be an ADC, and without the utility to be a reliable jungler, which forced her into the role of "top lane bully who destroys juggernauts in lane and only can work late game if there are juicy squishies to be popped and towers to be dropped", which is not the role she should have (as evidenced by her lore as "assassin/scout who works in conjunction with her birdy to kick some ass" and Riot seeming to want her to be either an ADC or an assassin.) Equipped with that knowledge, one can begin to work out what her issues are, and how they can be solved to make her a better champion who can exist in the meta without certain items (looking at you, lethality) being broken.

Quinn's abilities:

P - Bird marks a target every now and then with a harrier proc, attacking the marked target does a lot of extra damage. Q and E also apply harrier marks to what they hit.

I actually really like her passive and think it should stay with some slight tweaks. If she wants to be an ADC and deal steady, sustained damage, then make the damage lower, make the marks last for less time, and reduce the cooldown on the passive, making it proc much more often if you can hit them fast enough, turning it into much less damage at once, but much more in prolonged fights where you can pop harrier marks much more often. If instead she wants to remain an assassin, keep it the same (maybe reduce damage slightly) because as it is, it is a great passive for assassins.

Q - Throw bird in skillshot line; does AoE damage where it hits and gives the first target hit a Harrier mark.

This ability's concept is alright, but i can't help but feel as though i am basically throwing Valor like a rock and hitting the enemies in the head. If you want her to be an ADC, make the ability a narrower skillshot, lower the damage (120%AD scaling at max rank is a bit much given it's already high base damage) increase travel distance, and make it give vision where it goes (so it can be used to check drag, baron, bushes, etc.). If instead you want her to be an assassin/splitpusher, keep it the same because as it stands, similarly to her passive, it is good at what it does for the purposes of assassinations.

W - Big circle of vision on massive cooldown (also passive attack speed/move speed steroid whenever you pop a passive mark)

This ability's passive is cool and i would like it kept, move it to her actual passive and have it scale with level, but as cool as the active is, it has to go one way or the other. If the desire is to make Quinn into an ADC, have it give her the double the attack and movespeed steroid her passive now gives her for proccing passive and allow this ability to bring her attack speed up to 2.5/2.75/3/3.25/3.5 if the percent buffs would do so in the absence of the attack speed cap of 2.5, but now give it for free for the next 2-4 seconds whilst negating the passive steroids (so you can't get triple the steroid by activating W and then popping a harrier mark), this way her sustained damage and damage to towers goes up (giving her a solidified identity as a splitpushing ADC with incredible sustained damage). If instead the desire is to make her into an assassin, things become a bit tricky, and perhaps keep the concept similar, but instead rather than give vision of a massive circle, give vision of the two enemies on the map with the lowest actual (not percent) hp, tagging them with a debuff that reveals them for the next 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds, that way it tells her where to go if she is looking for a good assassination, but not revealing the dangers surrounding said enemies and thus forcing her to sort of scope out the scene and either infer, predict, or walk up and discover what said enemies are doing and if she can get away with a quick assassination, in addition to this it keeps in with her theme of "working together with flappy bird to kick ass"

E - Be the queen of badass and leap towards an enemy, delivering a swift kick in the face before jumping back a distance from them

Honestly, I love this ability, as long as she is an assassin, and think if Riot wants her to be an assassin, they should keep this the same, and if she is an ADC, perhaps let her decide which way she leaps away from the enemy, (instead of going the direction she came from, she goes a direction of her choice (think in terms of camille dash but instead of any terrain, it is any enemy).

R - Call your bird cab to deliver you to your enemies.

I have a love-hate relationship with this ability, on the one hand i adore the ability to move from base w/homeguard and move at 1500 MS, but on the other i recognize it is more or less useless in teamfights and to be honest i don't really know what to do with the ability, perhaps i she wants to stay as the roaming assassin, Valor could swoop down after a brief (1.5/1/.5 second) channel and then after another channel (2/1.5/1 second, increased by up to 3/2.5/2 seconds based on how far she goes) and carry her somewhere of her choosing within the range of the ability (range would scale with level of ability). But as for fixing it for Quinn as an ADC, I have no idea.

To conclude, those are (in the eyes of a bronze pleb) the changes that should be made to Quinn, if you agree, disagree, or would like to discuss it further please feel free to leave comments

42 Comments

30cmOfTrueDamageJul 19, 20173 votes

In order to make Quinn a unique and interesting champion that's also really fun to play, first Riot must fix her theme and focus ** on the teamwork ** between Valor and Quinn. Quinn cant fight alone. Valor cant fight alone. Together? They are super strong.

Items, buildpaths or early/late game power spikes **dont define ** a champion. Thats just the result of her kit and game play. Example: let's say she got Reworked again and she isnt strong early. People will go like:this isnt Quinn, Quinn should be strong early, Quinn should be a lane bully. NO. Quinn will feel like Quinn if she has Valor helping her, she will feel like Quinn if she has a roaming element on her kit AND not because she cant bully the poor rangedless opponents in top lane which is the only lane she can be viable.

Quinn shouldnt focus around roaming as the main objective of her kit. That's what makes her obnoxious and weird. Instead Riot should focus on Valor-Quinn bond, their teamwork. They are also scouters. Roaming is a PART of scouting. So there should be somewhere a roaming element, not focused at it.

Riot must find at least one primary lane. All reworked champions have one. She isnt unique because she doesnt have one. Quinn must have a strategic role in the game. Just roaming the map taking towers and pushing waves are not enough. Maybe she can roam leaving nests of vision around the map or leaving traps for her to ambush her opponents gaining increased ms when someone's trapped.

She also has a marksman kit with assassin elements which is obnoxious. She doesn't have the amazing kiting capabilities of Vayne/Luciam for a short ranged marksman and she doesn't have the slippery escapes for an assassin like Talon/Zed. That continues to my next and final point.

Finally, give her a real ultimate. Let it be an assassin ultimate or a duelist ultimate or even a team fighting ultimate. I wouldn't even mind Quinn becoming a late game monster if they somehow made them work together.

OctaviaJul 20, 20171 votes

, first Riot must fix her theme and focus on the teamwork between Valor and Quinn

that has nothing to do with gameplay and she is already fun to play and unique so...

If you don't like Quinn go play Teemo or something, don't understand people who play champs they don't like then ask them to be changed.

Riot must find at least one primary lane. All reworked champions have one. She isnt unique because she doesnt have one.

It was intended to be mid post rework but became top and jg.

Finally, give her a real ultimate. Let it be an assassin ultimate or a duelist ultimate or even a team fighting ultimate. I wouldn't even mind Quinn becoming a late game monster if they somehow made them work together.

She already has a real ultimate. One of the most powerful in the game. Again, if you don't like Quinn why are you here? You just pretend it does nothing when it is a massively versatile tool that no other champ possesses.

Quinn shouldnt focus around roaming as the main objective of her kit.

Quinn mains were polled and the vast majority wanted roaming to be the main focus of the kit, so good luck with that. Quinn is roaming.

You clearly don't want Quinn, so play another champ and stop trying to change Quinn in a champ that has nothing to do with Quinn.

She isnt unique because she doesnt have one

So if she was more like the rest of everyone she would be more unique? Where is the logic in that.

she will feel like Quinn if she has a roaming element on her kit

Quinn shouldnt focus around roaming as the main objective of her kit

Quinn should be a roamer but not roam is what you just said.

None of this makes sense.

She doesn't have the amazing kiting capabilities of Vayne/Luciam

Have you ever played Quinn? Serious question. She kites better than either of those, what are you talking about? Nearly her entire kit is based on kiting

if they somehow made them work together.

Why do you keep focusing on "theme" while contradicting yourself at every turn and wanting a champ that isn't Quinn?

KoKobotoJul 19, 20173 votes

Fuck top lane Quinn.

To me Quinn is the marksmen that kills marksmen. That's what her old play style was and how you could play her effectively. Her strengths were dueling and diving/assassinating while her weaknesses were wave clear and consistent DPS. She could hit the front line but she was mediocre at it. She shined when finding opporunities to go from back lining to back line diving and picking off squishies.

Looking at her lore and stuff we got today her theme should stay some what the same. She has good skills, a bit of up close beat em up skills and stuff. She's agile and fast. She's a good tracker and knows how to track fools down (her skill in diving back line squishies). Most importantly though, she's good but she is excellent with Valor her other half. Some fast, some dueling, some assassinating, some tracking, more Valor, is what she should have when reworking her.

When reworking Quinn I think the roam identity should be completely dropped.

Roaming isn't a unique mechanic. Literally any champion in the game can roam just by walking around the map mid laner walks bot, top laner goes mid, bot lane goes top. Other champions have more interesting ways to roam like Shen, Aurelion Sol, Corki, Evelynn, Kha'Zix, Taliyah, Twisted Fate, Ryze, Galio, Talon. All of them have unique mechanics to their roaming for the most part but Quinn's is just bonus movement speed. THAT'S ALL SHE HAS. BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED HAH HAH HAH.
It's a hard to balance mechanic. A lot of these champions with kits specific to roaming have had many balance implications. Twisted Fate way back in the day. Taliyah when she could clear the whole wave level 1 and just go bot lane 24/7. Corki right now being a pretty good lane bully while also having great roam potential. Galio super strong laning with a arguably better version of Shen ult. Shen because Shen. And the list goes on. By creating a roam based champion Riot needs to give the champion the ability to roam. This means high damage to wave clear, mobility to roam AND crowd control to make sure the roams work out. You put all these mechanics on a champion and you're bound to get some people complaining about them. And note all the roam champions I've listed have been complained about a bunch. Aurelion Sol and Evelynn might be exceptions because they are a bit harder to play, same with the new Ryze.
Roaming needs to be made distinct from other champions. All the champions I've listed have unique ways in which they roam, the biggest similarity is with Shen and Galio but both of them have pretty different play styles that make up for it. Also Galio can be played better with divers while Shen is better for protecting that one squishy. Riot having created all these unique roam mechanics has left Quinn with a really boring ult that is just movement speed.
Quinn's roaming is the least interesting out of all the reworks. This relates back to the previous point, sure she is distinct but she's also the most dull when it comes to roaming. Old Quinn could roam and had good roams but it wasn't core to her theme, it was just something you could do if you were smart about using Tag Team. Tag Team had more restrictions placed on it and more strategy behind the ability. You had this high cooldown ability that gave you 20 seconds to work with that completely changed your play style and role. Quinn players felt rewarded for using this ability well and it was it really got the blood pumping fighting as Valor and getting into the heat of the battle and all that. The new ultimate has little strategy behind it other than basic game knowledge. The ability has no cooldown and is on permanently until you cancel it meaning you don't gotta worry about losing the ability unless combat. It also made for pretty toxic interactions as we've seen with lethality Quinn, roaming mid than going straight back to lane with little repercussion, relates back to the second point on hard to balance. Overall it's unhealthy.
Last point. Valor carrying Quinn looks fucking stupid. I could understand for a carrying for short while but what we got now makes no fucking sense.

I'll also look at Quinn's abilities.

Harrier is nice and for Quinn players its what we got. Her auto attacks already feel powerful in comparison to other champions and her harrier also feels great to use. It also gives Quinn the sense of combing her abilities and auto attacks which is nice. However I think if we want to rework Quinn we're gonna have to change this ability.

Blinding assault is overloaded and takes up a lot of Quinn's power budget. It's a staple part of Quinn's gameplay but I think this will also need to be changed somehow. Also we've all said this before but it kinda looks like Quinn is hurling Valor at the enemy :P Dissecting this ability a bit:

Long Range
High damage, low base 120 base but, 120% total AD scaling in AoE
Nearsight pretty much hard CC against a lot of range champions
Applies Harrier mark (effectively giving her all the benefits of Heightened Senses as well)

The ability is nice but it just does too much when I think about it and eats up a lot of her kit. I love this ability and I think it is core to defining her play style and retaining her ability to duel / assassinate but it needs to be changed somehow. I just wanted to establish the flaws in this ability because although it's really core to Quinn I believe it's going to have to change for her rework to be brought to fullest potential.

Heightened Senses. I've come to love this ability but maybe it's just because I love Quinn too much. The ability shows the communication teamwork between Valor and Quinn and is probably the only one that really shows that now. The ability gives her a lot of nice utility but also reveals her location which has always been a major downside, kinda like using a scrying bloom today. When you decide to max the ability also impacts how Quinn scales into the game. Leveling this ability dictates whether you're gaining more movement speed in combat and more attack speed, which is interesting. The feeling that "hey I could max this or that first" is nice to have compared to a lot of new champions that just go the same ability max order every single game.

I'll finish the rest when I get home. [Edit] Finals so yeah...

Vault is one of Quinn's most iconic abilities that has many uses. People that don't play Quinn see this ability as suicide but those that take the time to master Quinn and know the ins and outs of when to do stuff make great use of it. Wall hopping is probably one of the most satisfying things to do in this game and using it in a battle feels even better. Cancelling channels, timing it with enemy dashes, and just getting up close and personal is how this ability made Quinn skillful and unique. Out of her abilities I think vault should be changed the least if at all.

Ultimate... well I think I explained why her new ultimate sucks enough so I'll go and describe her old ultimate. If vault made Quinn unique than tag team made Quinn unparalleled, remarkable, distinct, and other other words that mean unique but more unique. I've already mentioned how you could go from backline to backline so I'll talk about other stuff. The ability in general felt very smooth to use, had a smooth cast animation for the swap out that didn't hinder using abilities right away. Felt impactful when using it and you noticed the results instantly, it felt like an ultimate ability. Moving as Valor just felt better overall and looked smoother as well with his wings out gliding around. People who mastered Quinn knew about all the different purposes for Quinn's ultimate. To name a few, roaming, diving, kiting, repositioning, and just naming them doesn't do the stragegies or knowledge required justice, it was more than just diving or kiting. I have some many memories using the old tag team but if I begun talking about them I wouldn't be able to stop.

Now looking at ways to rework and stuff.

One thing Riot has done with reworks is move parts of kits to different places and adding new abilities. With Warwick they basically combined W and E into W and gave him a new E with his howl and also updated his kit.

For Quinn I think they should do something similar and here is some ideas I have and also this is where I begin to flop:

Her current ultimate should be scrapped entirely and never see the light of day again.
Harrier, , Blinding Assault, and Heightened Senses need to be changed in some way.
Blinding assault moved to passive.
Harrier removed. New slot on Q, Vault and Heightened Senses remains the same.
Heightened Senses moved to passive.
Harrier and blinding assault combined.
Heightened Senses and Harrier combined.
Blinding assault updated, vault stays kinda the same, new slot on W for a new ability

And that's all I got for her rework. I've posted some other ideas before so maybe I'll make another post. Idea making for me is bad, I don't know a lot about how birds fight with people so I'm at a loss here on ways to implement Valor in the best ways.

30cmOfTrueDamageJul 20, 20171 votes

Logged in just to upvote this. You said everything i wanted to say in another comment but better! Up up sir!

Edit: and that comes from a Quinn main with around 4000 games with her

HalcyonDwellerJul 19, 20172 votes

I really like Quinn thematically, and in general she is pretty fun to play. But like you, I have a love hate relationship with the non-combat ultimate. She has two non-combat abilities when you consider the ultimate and the W, and that makes her a lot less interesting to play than other champions which actually get to use more than 2 abilities in combat.

Asayake 5150glowJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I really like Quinn thematically, and in general she is pretty fun to play. But like you, I have a love hate relationship with the non-combat ultimate. She has two non-combat abilities when you consider the ultimate and the W, and that makes her a lot less interesting to play than other champions which actually get to use more than 2 abilities in combat.

Apparently you don't feel the same way, but I love running around with an 80% attackspeed boost and 40% movespeed boost. It makes kiting smooth and easy. So much that I sometimes max W first when using/landing Q is difficult.

HalcyonDwellerJul 19, 20171 votes

That's definitely powerful and impactful, but it's not a decision I get to make. I don't get to make any complex decisions (excluding map rotation) playing as Quinn.

Her passive is sort of controllable, but it's an obscure minigame (compared to something like Draven's Axes which are obvious both to the player and their opponents) and interacting with it to manipulate how it works feels very clunky. So she has very little control over her passive, except for being able to place it once or twice with her ultimate and Q (The E can't be used offensively in group fights because it is needed to remain safe).

The passive is clunky, difficult to control, and makes you feel more like the game is handing you opportunities rather than you getting to make them for yourself. Enemies also have no choices or decisions they can make for counterplay against it.

W is a useful ability, and I know it can be very impactful, but its use cases are so limited (only time you will ever use this in combat is if an enemy jukes into a bush) that it's mostly just dead weight in combat (I know the stats it gives for proc-ing the passive, but I'm talking about compelling decisions offered).

The ultimate is powerful and useful, out-maneuvering enemies is very powerful when you can split push and also be present for teamfights. But that's all this ultimate is good for. It's essentially a toggle for bonus roaming power, so it doesn't even really have windows of power and weakness...

All this boils down to a champion with two (and a half) abilities and a bunch of stats. Q and E are abilities unto themselves. W is conditionally useful while also providing massive steroids (hence why I counted it as half). R is a toggle for another massive steroid. On top of that you often have to hold onto your E in case you get dove and need to jump away. So you are frequently just using the Q and holding all your other abilities.

That is not compelling gameplay. It's really really boring. I love the champion's thematic, but Riot needs to deliver on that better while still providing the player with compelling choices to make in-game.

Asayake 5150glowJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's definitely powerful and impactful, but it's not a decision I get to make. I don't get to make any complex decisions (excluding map rotation) playing as Quinn.

Her passive is sort of controllable, but it's an obscure minigame (compared to something like Draven's Axes which are obvious both to the player and their opponents) and interacting with it to manipulate how it works feels very clunky. So she has very little control over her passive, except for being able to place it once or twice with her ultimate and Q (The E can't be used offensively in group fights because it is needed to remain safe).

The passive is clunky, difficult to control, and makes you feel more like the game is handing you opportunities rather than you getting to make them for yourself. Enemies also have no choices or decisions they can make for counterplay against it.

The way your passive randomly chooses a target is pretty useless, but it can be pretty much ignored (except for hitting it for an AS/movespeed boost), but a few key things to note is that it seems to prioritize a champion (or target in general) that you auto attack. It also doesn't seem to apply until you go into your targets vision, although that may not be true (I've heard it was removed, but waiting in top brush for the enemy still works). Gameplay with it often has to do with using brush and Fog of War to apply it to your opponent (it seems to be random otherwise) and that it often applies after a brief delay after exiting ult. Otherwise it's more of a damage boost that rewards hitting skillshots and amping damage with abilities.

W is a useful ability, and I know it can be very impactful, but its use cases are so limited (only time you will ever use this in combat is if an enemy jukes into a bush) that it's mostly just dead weight in combat (I know the stats it gives for proc-ing the passive, but I'm talking about compelling decisions offered).

Yeah but the stats are meaningful themselves, knowing you'll have a 40% movespeed boost after doing a trade means you can try to go for riskier trades, and it also makes it easier to dodge skillshots, but because of Quinn's relatively short range, dodging skillshots is still a challenge. Plus, stats are important. Most champions who use autos rely on some sort of statboost, and Quinn is no exception.

The ultimate is powerful and useful, out-maneuvering enemies is very powerful when you can split push and also be present for teamfights. But that's all this ultimate is good for. It's essentially a toggle for bonus roaming power, so it doesn't even really have windows of power and weakness...

It's still fun and useful -_- And it's more than just splitpush and roaming, it also gives her some of the best long range engage in the game (assuming you aren't popped out of it, but with you should use the extra movespeed to dodge so if you get popped, you got outplayed, unless it's really hard to dodge).

All this boils down to a champion with two (and a half) abilities and a bunch of stats. Q and E are abilities unto themselves. W is conditionally useful while also providing massive steroids (hence why I counted it as half). R is a toggle for another massive steroid. On top of that you often have to hold onto your E in case you get dove and need to jump away. So you are frequently just using the Q and holding all your other abilities.

So what? So what if Quinn isn't one of the more complex champions? She's still quite fun. Auto attack based champions aren't rare, you know.

That is not compelling gameplay. It's really really boring. I love the champion's thematic, but Riot needs to deliver on that better while still providing the player with compelling choices to make in-game.

Except her E is sooooo fun. Not many champions have an ability like it, and choosing to use it for damage, for CC, for interrupting dashes, kiting.... ah it's just so unique and great. And zooming around is fun too (W and R).

As a squishy damage dealer with high mobility, Quinn is already far more complex than certain champions. Positioning is really important, and it's not usually clear where you should be.

HalcyonDwellerJul 19, 20171 votes

It looks like you might be getting offended so I want to qualify all if this. I don't think current Quinn is bad, and I don't look down on players for liking her the way she is. I just see that she could be so much more... fluid, fun and balanced! And I really want that for her because it would be so much more fulfilling to play.

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fMp3aefr,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-19T21:57:04.316+0000)

The way your passive randomly chooses a target is pretty useless, but it can be pretty much ignored (except for hitting it for an AS/movespeed boost), but a few key things to note is that it seems to prioritize a champion (or target in general) that you auto attack. It also doesn't seem to apply until you go into your targets vision, although that may not be true (I've heard it was removed, but waiting in top brush for the enemy still works). Gameplay with it often has to do with using brush and Fog of War to apply it to your opponent (it seems to be random otherwise) and that it often applies after a brief delay after exiting ult. Otherwise it's more of a damage boost that rewards hitting skillshots and amping damage with abilities.

So that's the thing, it is mostly random. here's roughly how it works:

Last auto-attacked target
Champions if you are in a brush
low health enemies
Random

This is clunky and frustrating to use. It requires so much effort to use well, and the honeytrap of applying it with Vault is just cruel because it can make players want to use Vault offensively and then getting destroyed because they have no escape or mobility to get out.

Having to move in and out of bushes timed perfectly in order to get it to apply the way you want is so horribly clunky. The randomness feels terrible. I've frequently had it activate on a minion right when I REALLY REALLY don't want it to and then I have to sit there and twiddle my thumbs until it comes off cooldown again and hope it works right or that my opponent is stupid enough to walk into range for it to mark them while I'm in the bush. Meanwhile

There's no counterplay for the enemy. My opponent has nothing they can do once the mark is applied to them, if I'm in auto-range, they take bonus damage and I get a speed boost. It promises burst damage (she's even classified as an assassin) yet the way her passive works is extremely binary. Either she can burst you or she can't. If she fell behind then she can't, and she's useless because enemies can just turn and kill her because of her low range. If she got ahead then her burst is insane and she can flatten squishies extremely easily, with no room for them to do anything about it.

There are so many problems with the way the passive works, it hybridizes her between a marksman and an assassin, and she can't be truly good at either of them as long as this division exists. The passive alone needs a rework.

Yeah but the stats are meaningful themselves, knowing you'll have a 40% movespeed boost after doing a trade means you can try to go for riskier trades, and it also makes it easier to dodge skillshots, but because of Quinn's relatively short range, dodging skillshots is still a challenge. Plus, stats are important. Most champions who use autos rely on some sort of statboost, and Quinn is no exception.

The W passive could be tied into (or made to replace) her existing passive just as easily and she could get a better ability for her W. The W doesn't even apply the passive, and it doesn't interact with the rest of her kit.

It's still fun and useful -_- And it's more than just splitpush and roaming, it also gives her some of the best long range engage in the game (assuming you aren't popped out of it, but with you should use the extra movespeed to dodge so if you get popped, you got outplayed, unless it's really hard to dodge).

So I get to use it before a fight, but all it lets me do is run at the fight really fast? That doesn't feel like a decision, it feels mandatory. On top of that it's still a toggle (sure it costs mana and requires a channel, but that's not the point) which gives a ton of movement speed, and that's pretty much all it is for. Nobody cares about the damage it deals anymore (it's negligible), Riot had to nerf it because it was unfair to opponents who already couldn't escape and had no way to avoid or counterplay it.

So what? So what if Quinn isn't one of the more complex champions? She's still quite fun. Auto attack based champions aren't rare, you know.

Auto-attack champions usually still have more cohesive kits. Quinn's is all over the place, and there's so much about her kit that is binary. Lots of "be oppressively good or die sucking." This is why she needs complexity.

Except her E is sooooo fun. Not many champions have an ability like it, and choosing to use it for damage, for CC, for interrupting dashes, kiting.... ah it's just so unique and great. And zooming around is fun too (W and R).

I completely agree about her E, it is extremely fun and I wish that it were available to use more often.

As a squishy damage dealer with high mobility, Quinn is already far more complex than certain champions. Positioning is really important, and it's not usually clear where you should be.

Having a low range makes it hard to play her well in teamfights. You don't get to use most of her abilities during a teamfight, so all she does is throw a Q, auto-attack, and wait to use W until its necessary. You can't even use E because it's so easy to get dove in teamfights. So all she really does in a teamfight is auto-attack, which is not what her kit promises or suggests what with the passive and the abilities marking the passive and all.

Asayake 5150glowJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It looks like you might be getting offended so I want to qualify all if this. I don't think current Quinn is bad, and I don't look down on players for liking her the way she is. I just see that she could be so much more... fluid, fun and balanced! And I really want that for her because it would be so much more fulfilling to play.

But she is fluid D: W movespeed and attackspeed is soooo fun to use.

So that's the thing, it is mostly random. here's roughly how it works:

Last auto-attacked target

Champions if you are in a brush

low health enemies

Random

This is clunky and frustrating to use. It requires so much effort to use well, and the honeytrap of applying it with Vault is just cruel because it can make players want to use Vault offensively and then getting destroyed because they have no escape or mobility to get out.

How does that make Vault cruel? If you do stupid shit, you die. If someone dashes into the middle of the enemy team as Yasuo, they die. If you use Vault offensively, you are consciously making the choice to negate your dissengage for more damage.

Having to move in and out of bushes timed perfectly in order to get it to apply the way you want is so horribly clunky. The randomness feels terrible. I've frequently had it activate on a minion right when I REALLY REALLY don't want it to and then I have to sit there and twiddle my thumbs until it comes off cooldown again and hope it works right or that my opponent is stupid enough to walk into range for it to mark them while I'm in the bush. Meanwhile

No but it's lane mechanics, outside of that it's not important, but combined with Duskblade's old passive it was perfect. Not to mention getting random Harrier procs would be completely overpowered. It's not really meant to be applied while poking, but rather to serve as something comparable to Lucian or Riven passive (except instead of just using your ability, you need to hit them as well), but with a different payout.

There's no counterplay for the enemy. My opponent has nothing they can do once the mark is applied to them, if I'm in auto-range, they take bonus damage and I get a speed boost. It promises burst damage (she's even classified as an assassin) yet the way her passive works is extremely binary. Either she can burst you or she can't. If she fell behind then she can't, and she's useless because enemies can just turn and kill her because of her low range. If she got ahead then her burst is insane and she can flatten squishies extremely easily, with no room for them to do anything about it.

Um what? Her W gives her a ton of attackspeed (up to 80%) as well as movespeed, have you tried tankshred/crit builds? They're all about DPS. There's no need to burst. And against squishies thats true for everyone, everyone can flatten them when ahead.

There are so many problems with the way the passive works, it hybridizes her between a marksman and an assassin, and she can't be truly good at either of them as long as this division exists. The passive alone needs a rework.

Except she can. Every marksman has some measure of burst, and every assassin has some measure of DPS. Which a Quinn is all depends on her build. She can be a good marksman, in terms of DPS, because of her big stat boosts. She can be a good assassin due to it's good ratios. Not to mention playstyle will change, with both you'll do what you need to kill your target as quickly as possible, but with an ADC that might mean spacing out abilities for maximum W uptime while an assassin would combo them together.

The W passive could be tied into (or made to replace) her existing passive just as easily and she could get a better ability for her W. The W doesn't even apply the passive, and it doesn't interact with the rest of her kit.

It's still fun, and Quinn doesn't need more complexity. She's not in major need of any changes... plus, the vision is really cool when scouting with ult, and it also makes it harder to gank her.

So I get to use it before a fight, but all it lets me do is run at the fight really fast? That doesn't feel like a decision, it feels mandatory. On top of that it's still a toggle (sure it costs mana and requires a channel, but that's not the point) which gives a ton of movement speed, and that's pretty much all it is for. Nobody cares about the damage it deals anymore (it's negligible), Riot had to nerf it because it was unfair to opponents who already couldn't escape and had no way to avoid or counterplay it.

But anyone with any range can stop it by knocking her out of it... Still, no one cares if it's mandatory or not. It's still necessary, as Quinn has no gapclosers anywhere else in her kit, and I wouldn't want my only gapcloser on an ultimate level cooldown. Sure you could put that into W, but lets face it: What we have already works.

Auto-attack champions usually still have more cohesive kits. Quinn's is all over the place, and there's so much about her kit that is binary. Lots of "be oppressively good or die sucking." This is why she needs complexity.

Huh? How? Quinn's E has a ton of counterplay around mindgames and stuff, and it can be outplayed by it's predictability (puts her at a set distance away so if you have teammates or delayed CC). Her Q is a skillshot. Sure kiting isn't too interactive for her opponent, but usually her opponent has their fair share of lockdown, and I don't see the ADC class being reworked just because they kite.

I completely agree about her E, it is extremely fun and I wish that it were available to use more often.

One part I gotta disagree with - maybe I would wish I could use it more often, but to keep her balanced, it's important that you can't use it often. Unlike Azir, who can use his Q for both repositioning and damage, Quinn needs to choose between damage or peel, and the cooldown is the only thing that keeps it so.

Having a low range makes it hard to play her well in teamfights. You don't get to use most of her abilities during a teamfight, so all she does is throw a Q, auto-attack, and wait to use W until its necessary. You can't even use E because it's so easy to get dove in teamfights. So all she really does in a teamfight is auto-attack, which is not what her kit promises or suggests what with the passive and the abilities marking the passive and all.

You can use E - when you get dove. Xin E's onto you, and normally most ADC's would be dependent on their support to peel them off them. However, Quinn uses her E and peels herself away. All anyone without low cooldown damage abilities does in a teamfight is 'autoattack'. Hitting your Q (and getting a W proc) will MASSIVELY increase your DPS, as well as utility. Auto attacking is the main source of DPS in League of Legends, and ADC's specialize in DPS.

HalcyonDwellerJul 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fMp3aefr,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-19T23:44:19.559+0000)

But she is fluid D: W movespeed and attackspeed is soooo fun to use.

There's not much point for us to debate about this. You like the auto-attack based ranged DPS with a simple kit, while I prefer combos and burst damage.

How does that make Vault cruel? If you do stupid shit, you die. If someone dashes into the middle of the enemy team as Yasuo, they die. If you use Vault offensively, you are consciously making the choice to negate your dissengage for more damage.

The reason I find it so frustrating to use Quinn in teamfights is that I have one ability I get to use when I want (the Q) the rest of them I have to hold onto in case I have to use them for very specific circumstances, or they can't be used in a fight at all, like her ultimate.

Um what? Her W gives her a ton of attackspeed (up to 80%) as well as movespeed, have you tried tankshred/crit builds? They're all about DPS. There's no need to burst. And against squishies thats true for everyone, everyone can flatten them when ahead.

I have not tried to use shred builds. Every time I try to go crit build it always backfires because it takes so long to become powerful and the enemy just wrecks me before I can scale. Maybe my build order is off, and I would welcome any suggestions for build orders to use instead. I want to be able to use Crit build, and I try to most of the time, but I don't ever feel like I get to be effective soon enough with them. I'm often forced to buy a defensive item and lose pacing.

Except she can. Every marksman has some measure of burst, and every assassin has some measure of DPS. Which a Quinn is all depends on her build. She can be a good marksman, in terms of DPS, because of her big stat boosts. She can be a good assassin due to it's good ratios. Not to mention playstyle will change, with both you'll do what you need to kill your target as quickly as possible, but with an ADC that might mean spacing out abilities for maximum W uptime while an assassin would combo them together.

Assassin only works if she snowballs hard early, otherwise it falls off too quickly and she becomes irrelevant. At least this has been my experience most of the time.

It's still fun, and Quinn doesn't need more complexity. She's not in major need of any changes... plus, the vision is really cool when scouting with ult, and it also makes it harder to gank her.

The ability has its uses, I'm not disputing that. But I don't feel like I get to make any interesting decisions with it. And combined with the fact that I can't use an ultimate during fights and I have to sit on my E in case I need it it all boils down to having only one ability that I can choose to use at any time.

But anyone with any range can stop it by knocking her out of it... Still, no one cares if it's mandatory or not. It's still necessary, as Quinn has no gapclosers anywhere else in her kit, and I wouldn't want my only gapcloser on an ultimate level cooldown. Sure you could put that into W, but lets face it: What we have already works.

I already conceded that the existing iteration of Quinn works. My point is that the ultimate lacks decision power. Most of the time if it's up and you aren't fighting you're going to want it active, unless you're low on mana. That's not a decision it's a mandatory habit. I find champions fun when their abilities offer me decisions that feel impactful or cool, if it's not a decision that I get to make, and it's just something that I have to do all the time, then it's not fun or interesting for me.

Huh? How? Quinn's E has a ton of counterplay around mindgames and stuff, and it can be outplayed by it's predictability (puts her at a set distance away so if you have teammates or delayed CC). Her Q is a skillshot. Sure kiting isn't too interactive for her opponent, but usually her opponent has their fair share of lockdown, and I don't see the ADC class being reworked just because they kite.

Vault is a fine ability, it has lots of cool interactions and counterplay, as well as interesting choices to make. I'm not talking about Vault when I say the kit has problems. I'm talking about not having as many abilities to use in combat as other champions do. She has Q, but aside from that everything is either not an active that can affect combat, or an ability that you have to hold onto for safety like you would with Summoner Spell: Flash.

One part I gotta disagree with - maybe I would wish I could use it more often, but to keep her balanced, it's important that you can't use it often. Unlike Azir, who can use his Q for both repositioning and damage, Quinn needs to choose between damage or peel, and the cooldown is the only thing that keeps it so.

For a champion with low range and only a few abilities that can apply the passive, she suffers far too much for not being able to use the passive proc from E.

You can use E - when you get dove. Xin E's onto you, and normally most ADC's would be dependent on their support to peel them off them. However, Quinn uses her E and peels herself away. All anyone without low cooldown damage abilities does in a teamfight is 'autoattack'. Hitting your Q (and getting a W proc) will MASSIVELY increase your DPS, as well as utility. Auto attacking is the main source of DPS in League of Legends, and ADC's specialize in DPS.

That's boring, It's not fun to only have 1 ability to use freely during a fight. This is why I avoid lame-ass champions like Caitlyn. I derive most of my enjoyment from using abilities, making strategic decisions in combat, and pulling combos. Quinn used to be a champion that offered me that, now she doesn't feel as satisfying to use while also becoming more like those auto-only champions.

I'll be giving DPS Quinn a chance, trying the next few times I play, but most of the time it feels boring to just rely on auto-attacks. Usually it and doesn't fit the team's needs (I'm usually top or mid when I play Quinn, and I usually pick her when we need an assassin).

Asayake 5150glowJul 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There's not much point for us to debate about this. You like the auto-attack based ranged DPS with a simple kit, while I prefer combos and burst damage.

No, you don't get it.

The point is, there are people out there who enjoy Quinn's kit. And quite a few of them, as auto attack ranged DPS is an entire class (ADC). So Quinn's kit isn't a problem that needs to be fixed. Sure, it might not appeal to some, but you have Jayce if you want combo's and burst (along with range).

The reason I find it so frustrating to use Quinn in teamfights is that I have one ability I get to use when I want (the Q) the rest of them I have to hold onto in case I have to use them for very specific circumstances, or they can't be used in a fight at all, like her ultimate.

And Yi only has one ability, Q, which he needs to hold onto to dodge shit, yet he's still a decent champion not heavily in need of a rework. 'Fun' for the player is variable, so it's not a problem.

I have not tried to use shred builds. Every time I try to go crit build it always backfires because it takes so long to become powerful and the enemy just wrecks me before I can scale. Maybe my build order is off, and I would welcome any suggestions for build orders to use instead. I want to be able to use Crit build, and I try to most of the time, but I don't ever feel like I get to be effective soon enough with them. I'm often forced to buy a defensive item and lose pacing.

Build order is Bork/Cleaver (Bork if looking for kills, Cleaver if just wanna farm), whichever of the first you didn't get, into PD then IE (or defensive, GA/Maw/Steraks). It's strong early and scales well. Crit first isn't great since it leaves you too squishy in laning. not to mention the damage isn't anything special either.

Assassin only works if she snowballs hard early, otherwise it falls off too quickly and she becomes irrelevant. At least this has been my experience most of the time.

In my experience, it's been the opposite - when I'm behind, I go for assassin items since they're cheap. Assassin items require an assassin playstyle though, so I won't be dueling anyone. Even when I'm behind, Lethality builds can easily oneshot carries.

The ability has its uses, I'm not disputing that. But I don't feel like I get to make any interesting decisions with it. And combined with the fact that I can't use an ultimate during fights and I have to sit on my E in case I need it it all boils down to having only one ability that I can choose to use at any time.

I already conceded that the existing iteration of Quinn works. My point is that the ultimate lacks decision power. Most of the time if it's up and you aren't fighting you're going to want it active, unless you're low on mana. That's not a decision it's a mandatory habit. I find champions fun when their abilities offer me decisions that feel impactful or cool, if it's not a decision that I get to make, and it's just something that I have to do all the time, then it's not fun or interesting for me.

As I've said earlier, and what seems to be the deciding factor of this... debate? Argument? Is that fun is hard to argue with. It's not unhealthy, so it's fine.

Vault is a fine ability, it has lots of cool interactions and counterplay, as well as interesting choices to make. I'm not talking about Vault when I say the kit has problems. I'm talking about not having as many abilities to use in combat as other champions do. She has Q, but aside from that everything is either not an active that can affect combat, or an ability that you have to hold onto for safety like you would with Summoner Spell: Flash.

For a champion with low range and only a few abilities that can apply the passive, she suffers far too much for not being able to use the passive proc from E.

But she usually can (she automatically inputs an auto after E'ing, and it's also an auto attack reset), although it can be canceled if you fuck up. Plus, Quinn is already ranged and good at kiting - it would be unfair if it was too easy for her to kite melees, and dodging Q and outplaying E are the main ways to do that.

That's boring, It's not fun to only have 1 ability to use freely during a fight. This is why I avoid lame-ass champions like Caitlyn. I derive most of my enjoyment from using abilities, making strategic decisions in combat, and pulling combos. Quinn used to be a champion that offered me that, now she doesn't feel as satisfying to use while also becoming more like those auto-only champions.

But Caitlyn's still picked pretty often, must be doing something right eh? That is, not including being OP.

I'll be giving DPS Quinn a chance, trying the next few times I play, but most of the time it feels boring to just rely on auto-attacks. Usually it and doesn't fit the team's needs (I'm usually top or mid when I play Quinn, and I usually pick her when we need an assassin).

Well, when you pick her as an assassin, you wanna build and play her as an assassin, and you may not be doing that (I dunno though). The skirmisher build is pretty good for when you would normally play Fiora or something, and it scales well against juggernauts.

HalcyonDwellerJul 19, 20171 votes

I'll have to try W-max. Maybe it will be more fun for me too. The way her kit works now though, it's really frustrating to try to assassinate people and watch it do nothing more than tickle before I get turned on and dumpstered because I only have two abilities to use in a fight.

Asayake 5150glowJul 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I'll have to try W-max. Maybe it will be more fun for me too. The way her kit works now though, it's really frustrating to try to assassinate people and watch it do nothing more than tickle before I get turned on and dumpstered because I only have two abilities to use in a fight.

Yeah, try building DPS/tanky items too. item 3071 and lifesteal make it much harder for you to get dumped on, as well as item 3046 's passive. Oh, and you should probably go for defensive boots, in case you weren't. In most damage threat matchups, anyway.

HalcyonDwellerJul 20, 20171 votes

Thanks!

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

LinkwithaswordJul 19, 20172 votes

I agree and disagree. I actually love playing her and find her to be super interesting even despite only 2 actives for combat because of the versitility of those abilities and the way they interact with her passive, but yea the non-combat ulti has to go or at least be edited

HalcyonDwellerJul 19, 20172 votes

I see what you mean about the versatility, but there are also problems to having all of a champion's decision making packed into two abilities.

Part of the problem I see with it is that having just 2 combat abilities means that when you run out of cards to play your opponent often still has more tricks to pull.

Using Quinn's burst combo feels great, except when it doesn't. It's the worst case of succeed or die trying, because once your abilities are used up, you've got nothing and you're stuck hope your opponent can't do anything else to turn on you.

i cant move wtfJul 20, 20172 votes

I'd be cool with her passive taking over her ultimate, so something like "If Quinn remains still for 3 or more seconds, valor suspends her and increases her move speed by X amount." Then her ultimate could be something else entirely.

LinkwithaswordJul 28, 20172 votes

I agree, her ultimate is an awesome thing to have but it is basically a passive in the late game anyway, being able to just move it to passive and have it scale with level would both preserve her overall play style and give her the ability to have a combat ultimate which would allow Riot to rebudget her combat strength a bit to be balanced around 3 actives and 2 passives rather than 2 actives and 2 passives, allowing each individual active to be less powerful whilst preserving overall balance (meaning she has to expend more to achieve what she has to, but preserving her ability to perform just as well if played right)

i cant move wtfJul 28, 20171 votes

Or maybe it would feel better and be more interesting if it was something like "While quinn moves in a single direction she gains movement speed. After 5 seconds valor will fly down and assist her, gradually increasing her movement speed by 10-100% over the course of 5 seconds." And when valor assists her she goes into "flight mode" and she can't make hard turns (like sion ult) without breaking the speed buff. Then you wouldn't have to awkwardly wait 3 seconds every time you back or wanted to roam from lane.

Asayake 5150glowJul 18, 20171 votes

Quinn is a splitpushing, roaming, skirmisher who can be played as a slightly subpar ADC (low range makes teamfighting riskier than an ADC would like, although E's self peel helps a ton and R helps with rotating) or a slightly subpar assassin (terrible teamfight assasination, also not as slippery as many of the others).

You said that Quinn is useless if she can't burst her target - that is wrong. Quinn has an up to 80% attackspeed boost on her W which gives her very good DPS. Alongside this she gets an up to 40% movespeed boost, meaning she can kite with exceptional ease. She can possibly sustain those buffs for a solid 6 seconds. Bork and crit items make her auto attacks hurt, meaning her DPS isn't bad at all. If she is unable to burst you down, she can still do heavy DPS. If her DPS isn't enough to mow you down, as most ADC's aren't early game, she has a ton of self peel as in the powerful movespeed boost I mention early, the ability to cause Nearsight giving her the ability to kite ADC's with auto attacks (that's the only way Quinn wins a duel with traditional ADC's with a DPS build after midgame), as well as her E which displaces her target and places her at her max attack range away. These tools make it very difficult for a toplaner to heavily damage Quinn, especially as her E is capable of interrupting dashes when timed properly. And all the while, Quinn is using her 80% attackspeed boost to shred through any toplaner's health.

You might think that Quinn is too squishy for her to reliably fight tanks and bruisers, and generally, you'd be right. That is, until you factor in The Black Cleaver, giving Quinn an entire 400 health, and making it much more difficult to burst her down. Not only that, it gives even more movespeed with it's Phage passive, and the 20% CDR means more kickflips (E) and blinds. The armor shred, combined with Bork, also gives her the ability to take out tanks early-midgame instead of needing a full (expensive) crit build. It also gives her the surviability to farm safely until those items are gotten.

What she does better than Jax or Trynd is that while Jax and Trynd will generally win statchecks against their peers, Quinn excels by not taking those statchecks. Played properly, against a tank, juggernaut, or not very mobile fighter, Quinn will take minimal damage. It's not about whether Quinn can outstatcheck the Darius, and as Jax or Trynd you would probably lose until a certain point in the game, but Quinn can kite Darius from the very beginning and never loses the ability to do so.

What she also does better is she can be your ADC, as building Jax and Trynd full damage as you could Quinn would leave them far too vulnerable as they need to jump into the middle of the enemy team. Her bot lane isn't too great, but with a tanky jungler or support there is nothing wrong with being an ADC top lane! Yes others outrange her, but her mobility and self peel keep her good. You can still assassinate, except you're no longer limited to squishy targets - once you get items, you see their tank farming alone? Ult, go after them, SHRED them, and ult away without getting caught out!

Lastly, she has amazing roaming and can gank much more effectively due to her ult, not being tied down to a Teleport cooldown, and not needing to leave lane for several minutes.

As for roles, Quinn top lanes quite effectively, and while champions like Quinn should fall off, they haven't really done so the past few years. That's because she transitions into a great splitpusher, assassin, or marksman. She's also great at extending her lead to other lanes with her ultimate.

She can jungle because her range partially makes up for her lack of gapcloser, and E's displacement all but guarantees a Q hit. Her E+auto+Q+auto, the simplest of burst combo's, also does a very high amount of damage early game, and W movespeed means she can stick afterwards. After level 6, Quinn's ganks are great. Botlane is a bit more iffy, as she is squishy, so if she flanks she will often end up dying to the enemy duo unless she can burst one of them down. Against bursty lanes like a Syndra or Riven she also has to be careful, but so does any other assassin/carry jungler. Her E also locks down her target long enough (half a second, basically) for the laner to follow up with their own damage or CC, but even without that Quinn still packs a punch.

She can mid alright but is far more focused around roaming (as well as early aggression, her pre6 is stronger than many mages, especially if she is able to dodge skillshots). She is not very good at it due to her waveclear not being that great, so champions with high waveclear will end up pushing you in, and Stattikk Shiv alone cannot clear a wave unless you get a lucky crit. That being said, being able to roam both top and bot is HUGE, and even a single successful gank can do a ton.

Making her W more powerful in the way you suggest would be utter lunacy. It's already very powerful, and I've found myself going W max in the past for a DPS playstyle and build, and finding that it worked very well. Q max does a lot of damage, but it's only burst, it's skillshot reliant, and it's mana consuming. She doesn't need insane DPS to melt people like a Kogmaw does - her E, movespeed, Q, and Cleaver make that so.

Many of your problems seem to be from focusing on a single playstyle (assassination) and attempting to play other playstyles without itemizing for it. Quinn's crit DPS, while not the best, is still very good, with her passive scaling off crit and her self peel making it much harder to lock down the teams primary source of DPS. Her tankshred/duelist build gives her insane 1v1 potental along with early sustain and survivability (lifesteal makes poking so much better because you can lifesteal away the minion aggro and other damage).

Valor BotJul 19, 20171 votes

Quinn is a splitpushing, roaming, skirmisher who can be played as a slightly subpar ADC (low range makes teamfighting riskier than an ADC would like, although E's self peel helps a ton and R helps with rotating) or a slightly subpar assassin (terrible teamfight assasination, also not as slippery as many of the others).

I think this right here illustrates the main issue with Quinn's design. Quinn is a roaming, ranged, somewhat-skirmisher, somewhat-marksman, somewhat-assassin who dives into melee range for her main damage combo. So... what is Quinn, exactly?

She's not really a skirmisher, because she lacks the defensive tools (i.e. Wind Wall, Parry) necessary to thrive in close-range sustained combat. Her range, nearsight, and Vault come close; but other champions with range, nearsight, and knock-up abilities are not skirmishers in virtue of those strengths. Unlike skirmishers, Quinn also has no way of shredding through durable targets outside of itemizing towards it, whereas Fiora and Yasuo come with in-built tank-busting tools already.

She's not really a marksman, because she lacks the item reliance and characteristic power curve of one, and generally wants to get into the thick of a fight due to her Vault, blockable Q, and short auto attack range unlike most marksmen who rely on constantly skirting the edge of danger and dishing damage from afar.

She's not really an assassin, because she doesn't have the reliable escape necessary to function as one and in general just lacks a healthy assassination pattern.

Sure, maybe Quinn doesn't need to fit any particular box to be a successful champion, but her lack of a clear identity and jack-of-all-trades-ness leaves something to be desired, I think. Would like to see Riot make her good at something, rather than having her be mediocre at everything -- aside from roaming, which is her only clearly-defined strength (and even then, Talon fulfills the 'map-mobile AD burst damage dealer' role better anyway). She should also be tuned for a particular lane or position IMO, rather than having them all be doable, but none of them optimal (she can go anywhere right now to moderate success). I think in general though people just want a Quinn who is competitive rather than a Quinn who is always doomed to be a liability to her team by removing a tank source from top lane or an AP source from mid lane, etc.

Asayake 5150glowJul 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fMp3aefr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-07-19T01:05:45.464+0000)

I think this right here illustrates the main issue with Quinn's design. Quinn is a roaming, ranged, somewhat-skirmisher, somewhat-marksman, somewhat-assassin who dives into melee range for her main damage combo. So... what is Quinn, exactly?

She's a skirmisher who can either be a marksman or an assassin, or both. As a marksman, she can still assassinate - except she mainly assassinates tanks instead of squishies. As an assassin she's not much of a marksman, but still a skirmisher, the same way Riven is a skirmisher first, assassin second, Quinn is an assassin first, skirmisher second - at least, with an assassin build. As a skirmisher she's a skirmisher who has decent burst and decent DPS.

She's any and all of them, but I don't see how that's a problem because it's heavily build reliant, and all are fun. It's nice to have choices.

She's not really a skirmisher, because she lacks the defensive tools (i.e. Wind Wall, Parry) necessary to thrive in close-range sustained combat. Her range, nearsight, and Vault come close; but other champions with range, nearsight, and knock-up abilities are not skirmishers in virtue of those strengths. Unlike skirmishers, Quinn also has no way of shredding through durable targets outside of itemizing towards it, whereas Fiora and Yasuo come with in-built tank-busting tools already.

Ah, but Quinn also has 40% movespeed on W, and her E is not a simple knockup - it's a distance creater. Quinn's way of 'shredding' through durable targets is by kiting - sure she doesn't shred through them, but she's also not at risk of being outdueled the same way a Riven or Fiora might lose a duel to a Poppy.

She's not really a marksman, because she lacks the item reliance and characteristic power curve of one, and generally wants to get into the thick of a fight due to her Vault, blockable Q, and short auto attack range unlike most marksmen who rely on constantly skirting the edge of danger and dishing damage from afar.

Who said she wanted to use her E to for purely damage purposes? Sure, she can, infact that's what her assassin build is all about... but she doesn't need to. As an ADC, you save your E to self peel - like a Vayne uses her Condemn. Also, her auto attack range is short, but it's not tiny. W movespeed and E help her stay mobile and slippery despite her relatively short range, and her power curve does match an ADC's if you itemize for it (well, it's more like 'strong, medium, strong')

She's not really an assassin, because she doesn't have the reliable escape necessary to function as one and in general just lacks a healthy assassination pattern.

But she does pick off out of position targets with ease, and that's the other half of being an assassin.

Sure, maybe Quinn doesn't need to fit any particular box to be a successful champion, but her lack of a clear identity and jack-of-all-trades-ness leaves something to be desired, I think. Would like to see Riot make her good at something, rather than having her be mediocre at everything -- aside from roaming, which is her only clearly-defined strength (and even then, Talon fulfills the 'map-mobile AD burst damage dealer' role better). She should also be tuned for a particular lane or position IMO, rather than having them all be doable, but none of them optimal (she can go anywhere right now to moderate success). I think in general though people just want Quinn to be a serious pick who is competitive.

Does it really leave something to be desired though? Personally I have fun with all three. I love dueling people with Bork Cleaver PD, while still being able to help out my team with my decent burst and mobility. I love critting for 1k lategame with PD IE BT and shredding through anyone. I love kiting tanks, bruisers, and ADC's (with Q). I like oneshotting squishies with Youmuu's Duskblade who are mispositioned and don't have the peel to stop me. You have your Talon if you want to be good at mobile AD burst. You have your Fiora and Riven if you want to be a splitpush god. You have your Kog'Maws and Jinxs if you wanna be a teamfight god. Why cant Quinn stay Quinn?

Valor BotJul 19, 20172 votes

She's any and all of them, but I don't see how that's a problem because it's heavily build reliant, and all are fun. It's nice to have choices.

I have to disagree with this honestly. Jax building full lethality doesn't make him an assassin, it just makes him a skirmisher who built full lethality. Champions are much more than their build paths; and while yes, certain build paths help highlight or accentuate certain parts of a champion's kit, it doesn't actually change who or what they already are.

If you've yet to see it, check out Riot's new class/subclass system. It goes into detail on how Riot views strength and weakness profiles in the game, and how they classify each one accordingly. Also, here's an updated list of each champion and their respective class/subclass -- Quinn isn't categorized as a Skirmisher in fact, but as a "Unique Playstyle" (champion who doesn't fit anywhere).

Quinn's way of 'shredding' through durable targets is by kiting - sure she doesn't shred through them, but she's also not at risk of being outdueled the same way a Riven or Fiora might lose a duel to a Poppy.

A necessary characteristic for the skirmisher class is the ability to shred through both squishy and durable targets, though. They typically lack the high-end burst damage of assassins but differ in that they can kill tanky foes with ease. Quinn can itemize towards tank-busting, yes, but as mentioned before, a build does not a champion make. She can also kite, but that doesn't make her a skirmisher all on its own (Ahri can also kite but no one would argue this makes her a skirmisher).

I think the main takeaway from this is that while Quinn can technically 'skirmish' (i.e. she excels in small, scattered fights rather than full-on teamfights), she doesn't reap the benefits of a true Skirmisher due to her discordant elements of marksman, assassin, and skirmisher (none of which are deep enough to put her firmly in any one category). As long as Quinn has all these characteristics at once, she can't really be uniquely strong or specialized like Yasuo or Fiora are.

But she does pick off out of position targets with ease, and that's the other half of being an assassin.

Aye, but as shown by the likes of Diana, Akali, and pre-rework Talon, assassins generally flop if they don't have reliable escape tools. The assassin becomes a poor man's diver who more often than not suicides in order to one-shot the enemy team's squishy because they have no way out of a fight afterwards. Quinn doesn't suffer from this as much because she has range, but I don't think the range alone is enough to fill in for an actual 'gtfo' button (and Riot seems to agree with me here).

Why cant Quinn stay Quinn?

Not saying she can't; at the end of the day these are just my views and if you have fun with the champion there's nothing wrong with that. Heck, I fell in love with Quinn even before her rework when she had less of a clearly-defined identity, but it was for other reasons (namely her ability to turn into a super fast melee on the fly as Valor). I'm not satisfied with the champion as she stands today though and wish Riot would pick a direction for her because I'd like for them to make her cohesive and competitive, rather than being that niche pick who's just 'meh' all around. Thankfully she's on the list for a full-scale rework, but considering all the other problematic champions that exist in the game today who are prioritized before her, who knows if she'll ever actually see significant work done to her.

Asayake 5150glowJul 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fMp3aefr,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-19T01:53:40.756+0000)

I have to disagree with this honestly. Jax building full lethality doesn't make him an assassin, it just makes him a skirmisher who built full lethality. Champions are much more than their build paths; and while yes, certain build paths help highlight or accentuate certain parts of a champion's kit, it doesn't actually change who or what they already are.

...well yeah. That's because Jax isn't Quinn. However, there is still a big difference between diver Jax and Skirmisher Jax. One prefers splitting and dueling, the other is a tank frontliner with an AoE stun and some neat burst.

If you've yet to see it, check out Riot's new class/subclass system. It goes into detail on how Riot views strength and weakness profiles in the game, and how they classify each one accordingly. Also, here's an updated list of each champion and their respective class/subclass -- Quinn isn't categorized as a Skirmisher in fact, but as a "Unique Playstyle" (champion who doesn't fit anywhere).

Yeah, but there is no subclass for duelist, which Quinn can specialize in. Riots Quinn is mostly focused around her as a roamer which doesn't fit in a subclass, but looking at her gameplay it's clear she plays similar to skirmishers, assassins, and marksman.

A necessary characteristic for the skirmisher class is the ability to shred through both squishy and durable targets, though. They typically lack the high-end burst damage of assassins but differ in that they can kill tanky foes with ease. Quinn can itemize towards tank-busting, yes, but as mentioned before, a build does not a champion make. She can also kite, but that doesn't make her a skirmisher all on its own (Ahri can also kite but no one would argue this makes her a skirmisher).

Oh? Riven would like a word. Yasuo can kill squishies with a Q Ult Q auto. Fiora bursts them decently, and Trying can easily delete them with crits. No skirmisher lacks the ability to burst. A build certainly does a champion make, however. As a Riven main, each game I chose between a lifesteal bruiser or an assassin. As a bruiser, I look to splitpush and duel anything - as an assassin, I look to skirt teamfights and flash onto priority targets, and I would hardly bat an eye at tanks except as obstacles to be avoided. Riven also needs to itemize to kill tanks, as does Tryndamere. They have an even tougher time than Quinn because they cannot kite them.

I think the main takeaway from this is that while Quinn can technically 'skirmish' (i.e. she excels in small, scattered fights rather than full-on teamfights), she doesn't reap the benefits of a true Skirmisher due to her discordant elements of marksman, assassin, and skirmisher (none of which are deep enough to put her firmly in any one category). As long as Quinn has all these characteristics at once, she can't really be uniquely strong or specialized like Yasuo or Fiora are.

Personally I play Quinn very similar to my Riven, who, obviously, is a skirmisher. I can build to duel and splitpush with lifesteal and tankshred. I can build as an assassin and look for priority targets to burst.

Aye, but as shown by the likes of Diana, Akali, and pre-rework Talon, assassins generally flop if they don't have reliable escape tools. The assassin becomes a poor man's diver who more often than not suicides in order to one-shot the enemy team's squishy because they have no way out of a fight afterwards. Quinn doesn't suffer from this as much because she has range, but I don't think the range alone is enough to fill in for an actual 'gtfo' button (and Riot seems to agree with me here).

Of course not, Quinna 'escape' is that she is already 500 units away once her target is dead, then she's also got a 40 percent movement speed boost. Besides, there are multiple parts of being an assassin, the other being to catch out out of position targets. Quinn can abuse an ADC clearing a wave alone extremely well. Another thing assassins share is roaming during laning, and Quinns ukt makes this pretty core to her playstyle

Not saying she can't; at the end of the day these are just my views and if you have fun with the champion there's nothing wrong with that. Heck, I fell in love with Quinn even before her rework when she had less of a clearly-defined identity, but it was for other reasons (namely her ability to turn into a super fast melee on the fly as Valor). I'm not satisfied with the champion as she stands today though and wish Riot would pick a direction for her because I'd like for them to make her cohesive and competitive, rather than being that niche pick who's just 'meh' all around. Thankfully she's on the list for a full-scale rework, but considering all the other problematic champions that exist in the game today who are prioritized before her, who knows if she'll ever actually see significant work done to her.

I feel like someone who played the old Galio, because I really don't want Quinn changed. There are plenty of subpar champions, like Aatrox. Do they need work to bring them in line with everyone else? Perhaps. But they are still completely viable, and there is no reason to rework them outside of making them better. Go use your rework on those with actual problems, like Tryndamere.

Sir FuzziJul 19, 20171 votes

I'm replying to you specifically because I want to expand on your skirmisher idea, what sorts of builds do and don't fly (ha) on Quinn? Does she want to stick to an ADC build and play differently because of her potential outside skirmishes, or does she benefit from something aside from that norm?

I like Quinn, she's one of the few ranged AD I do like (with Urgot) and I'm trying to get started with her so I'm looking for just about any tips.

Asayake 5150glowJul 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Fuzzi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fMp3aefr,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-07-19T01:31:22.104+0000)

I'm replying to you specifically because I want to expand on your skirmisher idea, what sorts of builds do and don't fly (ha) on Quinn? Does she want to stick to an ADC build and play differently because of her potential outside skirmishes, or does she benefit from something aside from that norm?

I like Quinn, she's one of the few ranged AD I do like (with Urgot) and I'm trying to get started with her so I'm looking for just about any tips.

Hope you stick with her, she's really fun :D

Anyway, mainly my core is item 3153 item 3071 item 3046 , with Bork or Cleaver as my first item. As a skirmisher, I'm looking to duel my lane opponent and these items give me the DPS and durability to do so. Similar to those Lucian builds, I guess. Against someone I have kill potential against, I will go Bork first, or sometimes Lethality if I'm looking for burst. Usually Bork though, it scales better and my Quinn builds are pretty much all about that scaling. Bork lets me freely harass with autos, because minion aggro and the little damage they'll do to me, I can sustain with the lifesteal. It gives a lot of damage as well. Against lanes where I don't think I'll be able to kill my target, or am worried they will be able to burst me, I'll get Cleaver first. This is mainly against high burst bruisers and tanks who would be able to burst me down but not finish me with DPS - against carries (Fiora, Riven, Yasuo) I'll go Bork, because even if I tank up their burst damage they'll simply DPS me down.

Of course, get an early Hexdrinker against AP, and Exe against sustain (Swain does not count as sustain because he only gets sustain at lvl 6).

Once I get Bork and Cleaver, I'm pretty strong. At this point, I can duel almost everyone, and I'm pretty sure there's not a matchup I could not win if I played well or better than my opponent. I'll usually start looking for kills against most bruisers, and almost all tanks.

After that, I'll either finish my Maw or start building a Phantom Dancer or Youmuu's. Youmuu's isn't really skirmisher but it kinda is, basically if I need to assassinate as well as splitpush/small fights, if there's a fed enemy carry who I need to roam and shut down. Not a skirmisher item, but it will go into my skirmisher build at times. Phantom Dancer is an item that'll really amplify your DPS with it's attackspeed and crit, as well as make you harder to kill with it's 12% damage reduction. It's also fairly cheap and a strong pick up all around. Then I'll either grab an IE for heavy damage or a defensive item. GA, Steraks, and Maw are all good choices. Perhaps an LW if I'm really having trouble with an armor stacker.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, but boots. Ok, generally you want defensive boots so you don't get bursted down before you can kite and DPS. Against AD, Tabi's, AP, Merc Treads, of course, but against tanks, Cleaver should be enough, and you're better off with Zerkers for more kill threat. Also, if they do kill you, it'll be in an extended fight, and Zerker's attackspeed will help more than defensive boots in those scenarios.

At 6 items, my build usually looks something like this: item 3153 item 3071 item 3047 item 3046 item 3031 item 3053 . As you can see, lots of raw damage with crit, %maxhealth, lifesteal, and armor shred to deal with tankier targets, and health to avoid getting oneshot.

A general tip is KITE, and keep your distance. Against everyone. Not just tanks and juggernauts, you will wanna kite everyone you face. Max W second, the bonus attackspeed and movement speed is more important than a bit of base damage and lower CD on E (at least, that's what I personally believe). Q first, don't be fooled by E's better base damage - maxing Q gives it a higher AD scaing. Save your E until you need it. Many of your enemies are just waiting to turn on you and stomp you with their better stats and CC, but you should always E them away. Keep in mind that some dashes (like Camille or Vi) will override your E and hit you instead, while with other dashes (Riven third Q, Panth W), you can cancel them, although Panth W will still stun you. Exceptions are when you know you'll kill them/win a duel if they turn, or if they're unable to turn. For example, level 1, a common strategy is to hide in the second bush and wait for your opponent. Step out as soon as they get into auto range, and your passive should mark them - auto, E instantly (it's an auto attack reset), auto, and half their health is gone. Usually you'll take Tlords for laning power and burst later on, although with the heavier tanks and juggernauts Fervor will scale better. Remember to duck into the brush to drop minion aggro - use it to take as little minion damage as possible when harassing enemies. The reason you E instantly is because at lvl 1, your opponent may not have the ability to engage on you, but more importantly, if they do engage on you, you will win the fight. You should immediately retreat to brush and then your minions to drop aggro, so if they engage, they'll be taking aggro while you will not, and this early on, stats are close enough that you'll outduel them without any kiting needed.

SentineIsJul 19, 20171 votes

Agreed, I love playing Quinn as a skirmisher, however I disagree with many on the Bork purchase, as I find bloodthirster superior as she benefits more from the huge amount of ad with her good ad ratios then the percentage health imo.

Sustain lets you survive vs tanks, and let you destroy squishies still until you grab the black cleaver.

I go item 3072 item 3087 item 3071 item 3031

It lets you exploit your early game while maintaining suvivability, and encourages longer trades, its an easy build path with BF first, or double dorans.

Static gives you burst, waveclear, and attack speed, and you should dominate your top lane with it, or survive. Especially if you take barrier to survive ganks.

Black Cleaver is your first super power spike, as you can melt anyone now, and the second spike is infinity which makes you a bursty carry but hard to kill at the same time. There is nearly no one who could survive fighting you, other then champs who do ridiclous damage and sustain, i.e fed fiora before she got nerfed.

Enough HP not to be insta gibbed, lifesteal and bloodshield on top of that, coupled with insane movement speed on W, E disengage, and a blind to kite, she is one of the best kiters/ skirmishers, its ridiclous when you can outrun champs using their mobility skills i.e Garen, Udyr, with a proc of your harrier and black cleaver, and disengaging if they get close and repeating with E.

I have appox 69% winrate on her using this build, and I'm a quinn otp.

I hate the assassin build, but I see a ton of people loving deleting enemies in 2 shots. You dont have to be able to get out, you pick your enemies while their isolated with your mobility, you can create easy situations to do so. As quinn you play the map. It's a distinctly different mindset then other champs as your power doesnt come from your attack skills, but your mobility, gamesense, and versatility.

One Ashe OnJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, I love playing Quinn as a skirmisher, however I disagree with many on the Bork purchase, as I find bloodthirster superior as she benefits more from the huge amount of ad with her good ad ratios then the percentage health imo.

Sustain lets you survive vs tanks, and let you destroy squishies still until you grab the black cleaver.

I go

It lets you exploit your early game while maintaining suvivability, and encourages longer trades, its an easy build path with BF first, or double dorans.

Static gives you burst, waveclear, and attack speed, and you should dominate your top lane with it, or survive. Especially if you take barrier to survive ganks.

Black Cleaver is your first super power spike, as you can melt anyone now, and the second spike is infinity which makes you a bursty carry but hard to kill at the same time. There is nearly no one who could survive fighting you, other then champs who do ridiclous damage and sustain, i.e fed fiora before she got nerfed.

Enough HP not to be insta gibbed, lifesteal and bloodshield on top of that, coupled with insane movement speed on W, E disengage, and a blind to kite, she is one of the best kiters/ skirmishers, its ridiclous when you can outrun champs using their mobility skills i.e Garen, Udyr, with a proc of your harrier and black cleaver, and disengaging if they get close and repeating with E.

I have appox 69% winrate on her using this build, and I'm a quinn otp.

I hate the assassin build, but I see a ton of people loving deleting enemies in 2 shots. You dont have to be able to get out, you pick your enemies while their isolated with your mobility, you can create easy situations to do so. As quinn you play the map. It's a distinctly different mindset then other champs as your power doesnt come from your attack skills, but your mobility, gamesense, and versatility.

I can understand your point of bloodthurster but Quinn having no way to deal with tanky foe in her kit make blade of ruined king a more versatile choice . Assuming you are a OTP you probly tried many roles and build with her but since she is most effective top , it's against tanks or bruiser mostly, so rushing blood thurster might win early but late game when they get pretty bulky, you will barely scratch them. And for stattik shiv it's a matter of who you are against. If you are against a strong duelist, like Fiora Jax Riven Yasuo Tryndamere or whatever strong champion in 1v1 scenario, phantom dancer is way better. Otherwise for burst and waveclear, stattik fullfill it's intended purpose. Rest of your build is good but you will require defense and it can translate in boot + 1 defensive item. item 3111 item 3047 with item like item 3026 item 3742 item 3022 item 3156 item 3053 .

Asayake 5150glowJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, I love playing Quinn as a skirmisher, however I disagree with many on the Bork purchase, as I find bloodthirster superior as she benefits more from the huge amount of ad with her good ad ratios then the percentage health imo.

The attackspeed and on hit damage though... Its only 40 more AD, so with Quinn's ratios that's like 200 more damage in a full combo, but on hit damage is very powerful and its not hard to proc it 4, 5 times in a trade.

Sustain lets you survive vs tanks, and let you destroy squishies still until you grab the black cleaver.

Yeah but can you kill tanks/bruisers? You lack DPS and you also lack smooth kiting.

I go

It lets you exploit your early game while maintaining suvivability, and encourages longer trades, its an easy build path with BF first, or double dorans.

Easy build path and BF first do not belong in the same sentence, BT is notorious for having a terrible build path. I think you'd come across a lot of difficulty dealing with Irelias and other bruisers, you simply don't have the Dps to take them, and they would nearly oneshot you.

Static gives you burst, waveclear, and attack speed, and you should dominate your top lane with it, or survive. Especially if you take barrier to survive ganks.

But then you lose a lotta early kill potential with Ignite

Black Cleaver is your first super power spike, as you can melt anyone now, and the second spike is infinity which makes you a bursty carry but hard to kill at the same time. There is nearly no one who could survive fighting you, other then champs who do ridiclous damage and sustain, i.e fed fiora before she got nerfed.

You spoke at 3 items, Bork build spikes at 2... Those 2 items do almost as well as your 3 for much cheaper. Waveclear isn't usually super important in most matchups, being ranged and auto attack based makes you tough to shove in.

Enough HP not to be insta gibbed, lifesteal and bloodshield on top of that, coupled with insane movement speed on W, E disengage, and a blind to kite, she is one of the best kiters/ skirmishers, its ridiclous when you can outrun champs using their mobility skills i.e Garen, Udyr, with a proc of your harrier and black cleaver, and disengaging if they get close and repeating with E.

You have all that with Bork Cleaver as well though, except the Bloodshield. Phantom dancer is an amazing Stattikk replacement, it gives better stats, tons of movespeed, and damage reduction to make you even tougher. Personally I only get Stattikk when I'm not looking to duel, as Stattikk is perfect for pushing and roaming. The burst makes your ganks deadlier as well.

I have appox 69% winrate on her using this build, and I'm a quinn otp.

I hate the assassin build, but I see a ton of people loving deleting enemies in 2 shots. You dont have to be able to get out, you pick your enemies while their isolated with your mobility, you can create easy situations to do so. As quinn you play the map. It's a distinctly different mindset then other champs as your power doesnt come from your attack skills, but your mobility, gamesense, and versatility.

Yeah, but it's also nice being able to 1v1 literally anyone in the game.

JoxcabJul 19, 20171 votes

Her current pattern of abusing Lethality items as ranged is an extremely unhealthy and toxic playstyle. But even I have to admit she's not that good with crit.

Make her more actually involved in teamwork with her bird and shift her to Crit more.

Crit is just as unhealthy as Lethality on ranged, but eh, that's another separate argument.

And it's not like Riot will remove the Crit cancer any time soon anyways.

OctaviaJul 19, 20171 votes

but on the other i recognise it is more or less useless in teamfights

How is Quinn's ult useless in team fights? That's a pretty ludicrous statement.

Valor BotJul 19, 20171 votes

What makes it useful in team fights, then? The only thing her R contributes is a bit of damage centered around Quinn (less than her total AD, which is negligible damage at best). In a full on 5v5, she can't make use of the movement speed boost because damage cancels the channel. At least if its speed were accessible during a fight like Master Yi's Highlander we could say it serves a bigger role in combat, but as it stands Behind Enemy Lines is an almost completely OOC skill, good for arriving to fights or fleeing them, but not very pertinent in the middle of one.

OctaviaJul 20, 20171 votes

Lol. Positioning? Flying around team? Can't get caught? Engage?

It is one of the best abilities for utility at the start of a TF.

Ridiculous to say it is useless.

At least if its speed were accessible during a fight like Master Yi's

but Quinn is already fast in TFs.

but as it stands Behind Enemy Lines is an almost completely OOC skill

It just isn't. On top of everything else I said it applies thunderlords and some damage. Arriving is part of the TF.

If you don't arrive you're not in the TF.

but not very pertinent in the middle of one.

Does it have to be? No. It gets you to fights you'd never have got to, saves you, allows positioning etc, it doesn't on top of that need to do EXTRA things. It already does enough.

Just adding a boring mid fight mechanic would detract from its current niche and would not be good, proven by the original Quinn ult.

The ult is fine.

Ars ArcánumJul 20, 20172 votes

It is one of the best abilities for utility at the start of a TF.

Utility? What? The ult has no damage, no crowd control, and god forbid you take even the slightest amount of damage in it around enemies, even from minions or jungle camps. You're SOL. It goes on a small cooldown, and you have to root yourself as a squishy for 2 seconds to be able to use it again.

Unless paired with Quinn's E and something like Orianna's ball -> Orianna ult or Edge of Night, it doesn't do much for you.

OctaviaJul 20, 20171 votes

Positioning and movement is utility.

nd you have to root yourself as a squishy for 2 seconds to be able to use it again.

How about don't ult in the middle of a team fight then? What does that matter for?

Unless paired with Quinn's E and something like Orianna's ball -> Orianna ult or Edge of Night, it doesn't do much for you.

Yeah it only lets you move across the entire map, fly behind their team into their carries and flank them and do all sorts of other crap no other champs can do in the game.

But that's apparently nothing.

Maybe you should pick a different champ if you don't like the concept of Quinn? How about Teemo. You hate mobility apparently and regard it as nothing so stop playing a mobile champ and complaining about it.

Ars ArcánumJul 20, 20172 votes

Lol.. you act as if Quinn is the strongest champ in the game but your stats say otherwise. I think there's something inherently wrong if the only proper way to play a champion is as a suicide bomber. No way you will survive jumping on the enemy adc in a 5v5 situation as Quinn.

OctaviaJul 22, 20171 votes

"But my stats say otherwise"

yeah I only had a 69% win ratio in 140 games in Quinn JG up to diamond. Only 69% nothin much.

And don't trashtalk my stats when you are gold lol, gold players would have a 5% win rate in diamond. If that.

No way you will survive jumping on the enemy adc in a 5v5 situation as Quinn.

Of course you can, it all depends on the situation and your build. That's just plain wrong. I've done that 100s and possibly 1000s of times.

I think there's something inherently wrong if the only proper way to play a champion is as a suicide bomber.

No? That isn't the only way. At all. You are playing it wrong. Quite blatantly.

NachingJul 20, 20171 votes

She is very good 1vs1 She is very poor 5vs5

The good thing is that she can help others lines with her R.

So a very good chance if you and your team did very well before the teamfights start.

xkillertenzoJul 28, 20171 votes

She seems like a Roaming type of Jungler. She isn't played that much ever since her massive nerf.

Elkington VIJul 31, 20171 votes

I agree that if Quinn isn't killing someone near instantly than she's not worth picking over the many champions that can. If Riot doesn't want her to insta burst targets than they either need to increase her utility or give her more reliable ways to avoid being focused. Personally, I feel increasing her utility would make her a more healthy and less binary champion. She needs more non-damage oriented ways to make plays, more things that reward strategic foresight and decision-making, which would also be in line with her role as a scout.

I feel Quinn should be more of a utility marksman, similar to Ashe, but designed around solo-laning and/or jungling. She'll always be in a strange spot as long as damage is the only thing she provides to a team.

Quinn is one of the few (if not the only) champion(s) I do not enjoy having on my team and I don't think that's a good thing. I am completely unbiased, but I would rather have a Teemo than a Quinn, because at least he offers map control/vision and can completely stop pushing/snowballing with his shrooms. He's more useful to a comp than she is behind or fed.

**tl;dr Quinn needs more utility. Given her roles, she needs to bring more to a team comp other than damage. She needs a concrete reason to be picked over other champions in the same roles. It's the only way she'll ever work without removing Vault from her kit. **