@RiotRepertoir, @Meddler: What do you think about the laning phase for tanks like Singed, Nasus, etc

Maxxston·Jan 11, 2016·35 votes·7,680 views

Yo reds,

Just curious about your thoughts on champions like Nasus/Susan, Singed, and similarly stat-checky style tanks.

It seems like playing against them is incredibly dull. Either (a) you have the damage to push them out of lane, but likely never kill them, or (b) they have so much sustain and/or effective health that you can't do anything to them that doesn't include "take a ridiculous amount of minion damage while they ignore you/disengage effortlessly/opt to not participate in laning against you in any way".

Is this a problem that you guys see/agree with (or have plans for?) or do you view this situation differently? On a personal level, these tanks are incredibly frustrating to lane against; it's like playing against a brick wall in most cases.

Edit for those arguing over definitions: there's definitely some nuances to the terminology. Riot still hasn't posted the list of the dozen terms they use internally that they mentioned a few days ago. If a red responds, maybe they'd be willing to categorize some of these champs for us? :D

I specifically chose the 2 named for the lack of both solid ranged poke as well as mobility options (other than slows). In contrast, Darius/Malph/Poppy/Shen/Mundo all have at least one or both of those options. Trundle could go into the same camp as Singed and Nasus (depending on if you count his speed field as a serious mobility option or not).

94 Comments

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 201626 votes

I feel that the benefits they offer to the game outweigh the duller laning experience they sometimes create. Having tanky champions get played in a solo lane's valuable for team comp variety in , since it gives tanky builds that are more gold and XP dependent a home and allows more flexibility as to what sort of champion you run as a jungler or support. It also gives players that want to play some champions, but don't want to jungle, an option, and creates variety of playing against experience for opponents. The occasional non kill lane that forces you to roam or push can be an interesting change, it's when it's happening frequently I'd call it a real problem.

Angry MonsterJan 12, 20161 votes

please stop responding to posts that mislabel champs. By your current actions you are blurring the word TANK. Nasus is not a tank, he builds tankie, same for singed.

When will riot update the outdated vocabulary? For some reason you took a bad shot with marksman (cause it was not needed) and stopped. The fighter classes is where the definitions has always need to be cleared up. You also went half way with the term juggernaut (which singed and nasus fit) and then failed to update the game vocabulary so it became another RITO hype word.

At least when you post correct the people instead of letting their ignorance slide.

IcyPepperJan 12, 20167 votes

I feel like you should have posted a thread addressing this, rather than right now and here.

Nasus is not a tank, he builds tankie, same for singed.

Notice he said:

Having tanky champions get played in a solo lane's valuable for team comp variety in , since it gives tanky builds that are more gold and XP dependent a home and allows more flexibility as to what sort of champion you run as a jungler or support

Probably unintentional, but he is referring to champions that build tanky and never actually called them tanks.

And calling them non-kill lanes isn't entirely inaccurate. Nasus doesn't pentakill your team at level six. Give Medder some credit, and don't blow up on him when you can make a new thread yourself.

Angry MonsterJan 12, 20161 votes

Probably unintentional, but he is referring to champions that build tanky and never actually called them tanks.

I know context is hard on these boards, so i am going to cut you some slack. Read what the OP said not what meddler says. Then realize that meddler does not correct the OP but just let the OP spout their mislabeling of what a tank is.

I never said meddler mislabeled, i said that he was spreading the problem by not correcting ignorant people. The fact riot refuses to correct people is the reason why we have posts about tank garen, nasus, daruis, illoai, ect. They are not tanks by any definition, hell riot admitted this with the juggernaut talks. Yet they fail to update classes after the failed marksman change from ADC.

Until riot actually adresses core communication problems people like the OP post, nothing can be correctly talked about. Please learn to read and comprehend.

WyrmbladeJan 12, 201610 votes

Chill dude, semantics don't matter at all, it's easy to guess what OP meant without being a pedantic nugget about it.

HexaDecimelJan 12, 20165 votes

Your words made me happy.

SkiasJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I feel that the benefits they offer to the game outweigh the duller laning experience they sometimes create. Having tanky champions get played in a solo lane's valuable for team comp variety in , since it gives tanky builds that are more gold and XP dependent a home and allows more flexibility as to what sort of champion you run as a jungler or support. It also gives players that want to play some champions, but don't want to jungle, an option, and creates variety of playing against experience for opponents. The occasional non kill lane that forces you to roam or push can be an interesting change, it's when it's happening frequently I'd call it a real problem.

Couldnt Nasus offer similar opportunity without being so stale with simple changes? Even a change to his passive could solve the whole brick wall problem. You made changes to Renekton for the same problem, his healing was reduced to minions, because you literally couldn't stop him. Nasus feels that way. With a tiny stat lead, he will annihilate you.

AbyssphereJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Couldnt Nasus offer similar opportunity without being so stale with simple changes? Even a change to his passive could solve the whole brick wall problem. You made changes to Renekton for the same problem, his healing was reduced to minions, because you literally couldn't stop him. Nasus feels that way. With a tiny stat lead, he will annihilate you.

Renekton's nerf was designed to make him go from auto-winning lane to just very likely winning lane though. Advocating a nerf to Nasus's heal because it was done to Renekton doesn't make sense when Nasus uses sustain just to survive the laning phase, while Renekton uses sustain to make sure he wins it.

Nasus and Renekton's sustain do not create similar problems. Renekton's sustain made it so that it was impossible not to lose to him. Nasus's sustain makes it so that it's possible that he won't lose too badly to you. You're asking for a nerf that was made so one champion wouldn't automatically win every lane to be applied to another champion so that they will automatically lose every lane horribly.

Nasus and Renekton are polar opposites - suggesting they get the same balance treatment is ridiculous.

The Yetii RiderJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I feel that the benefits they offer to the game outweigh the duller laning experience they sometimes create. Having tanky champions get played in a solo lane's valuable for team comp variety in , since it gives tanky builds that are more gold and XP dependent a home and allows more flexibility as to what sort of champion you run as a jungler or support. It also gives players that want to play some champions, but don't want to jungle, an option, and creates variety of playing against experience for opponents. The occasional non kill lane that forces you to roam or push can be an interesting change, it's when it's happening frequently I'd call it a real problem.

Well you nerfed Shen's Q because he was a brick wall in lane, right?

Also, while we're on the subject, how is Singed doing after the changes? Are you seeing an increase in him grouping and team-fighting and contributing, or are the majority of Singed players still just proxying?

Ragnar42Jan 12, 20162 votes

I don't think you understand how Singed works if your'e comparing "teamfighting and contributing" to "Proxying" Proxying occurs early-mid game, and good Singed players are leading the charge during the "group phase and team fighting phase" because they've TP'd in, popped ghost, and Ult (and sometimes dive helmet) to run in, grab some opponent before they react, and flip them into the team for an easy kill creating a game winning 4v5...

Like the 2 are completely uncomparable.

Singed, though, likes to proxy early in more matchups than not lately, especially since his core items build out of more expensive items and causes him to hit his critical combo later, it's a pretty serious nerf to any Singed who can't farm, and forces them to try to farm in the proxy zone more.

I don't proxy often unless i have my opponent hiding under his tower.but that's just me.

AbyssphereJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well you nerfed Shen's Q because he was a brick wall in lane, right?

Also, while we're on the subject, how is Singed doing after the changes? Are you seeing an increase in him grouping and team-fighting and contributing, or are the majority of Singed players still just proxying?

I believe the problem with Shen was that he was a lane bully in favourable matchups and in losing matchups, was impossible to force out of lane anyway. Most tanks with sustain are difficult to shove out of lane, but they very rarely have actually dominant laning phases. Shen was an exception and was overpowered.

Old Man TeetoJan 12, 20162 votes

So did the opinion on Shyvanna vs Mundo wet noodle fights change over the past year or so?

Good

DreadlocksJan 11, 201611 votes

God bless, we still have tanks viable in the top lane.

MaxxstonJan 11, 201612 votes

{quoted}

God bless, we still have tanks viable in the top lane.

True, there's definitely a discussion on whether or not tanks are in-meta right now at all. My focus is really on how enjoyable they are to play against compared to other classes in the laning phase.

DreadlocksJan 11, 201629 votes

You know what isn't enjoyable? Getting shit stomped in lane and having no way to come back from it. So ill take a wet-noodle fight over a shit stomp any day.

iamleburkJan 12, 20161 votes

Well if you're playing Nasus, getting shit stomped in lane is you're counter play. It should be difficult for him to come back just off of the sheer amount of power he gets if he does.

DreadlocksJan 12, 20162 votes

It takes him like 20 minutes before hes actually a threat.. that's punishment enough.

iamleburkJan 12, 20163 votes

It's really not, because he becomes one of the most threatening characters in the game. Like at least top 3 scary champions is the game is a farmed Nasus.

what you deserveJan 12, 20161 votes

what're your other two?

iamleburkJan 12, 20164 votes

A late game Vayne (on someone who actually knows how to play her) and either a fed rengar (if he know how to instagib) or a good blitz crank imo.

crimdelacrim101Jan 12, 20162 votes

I remember back when sword of the divine was still a thing, I was extremely fed as talon, full build well before everyone else, and nasus had been farming like a boss. So once he entered the teamfights, things were going less well for our team, despite having done really well early. I finally finished my build(IE, cleaver, BT, LW) with sotd, and we found each other in the jungle. I got withered, so there was no escaping and up he comes to bop the shit outta me so I'm like, what the hell, drop the nuke. so i popped sotd, did like half his health with my e-aa-q combo, then landed like 900+ crits on 3 straight autos. He definitely wasn't full build, but it still surprised me that i beat a well farmed nasus! sword of the divine, how i miss you

kasfasJan 11, 20166 votes

And then you get those people who say the ONLY viable options right now are tanks, and you just tell them that Darius garen and illaoi (and mord for mr malicious) aren't tanks...

ZGM DazzlingJan 11, 20161 votes

I wouldn't say this is the case for the whole class of tanks, just a hand full of champions who fill similar roles Nasus Nautilus Rammus Shyvana Singed Trundle Volibear

XicashinaJan 12, 20162 votes

I agree with all of those although shyvana probably shouldn't fall under that role. When played as a top lane she's a heavy duelist more than a hard tank. She generally builds one big damage item (be it BC, Borc Guinsoos, Etc) then builds Bruiser items like item 3053 into tank her primary role is to act as more of a splitter who jumps on adcs/apcs to blow them up (like irelia).

kasfasJan 11, 20162 votes

Malphite is very viable right now and, being a sion main, Sion is viable as well. Those are the only exceptions.

DreadlocksJan 11, 20164 votes

DrMundo Shen Trundle Poppy

UltraboomerJan 11, 20165 votes

DrMundo and Trundle are fighters, not tanks. Mundo is a juggernaut. (so is nasus, but whatever.)

DreadlocksJan 11, 20165 votes

I hate how technical people get on the boards -_- I can build Shen and Poppy like a fighter/juggernaut too.

RatbertJan 12, 20162 votes

I can build caitlyn to be a tank or anivia to be a "marksman". Doesn't make them one overall.

3TWarriorJan 12, 20164 votes

exceot fighters and tanks have very similar stats though fighters tend to make better tanks just by their mobility and utility with damage however tanks tend to have a way to lessen the damage they take overall

for instance, chogath can have up to 900 bonus health, singed gains 25% of his mana as health, shen has a shield and damage reduction and even a second shield

whereas a character like jax gains 120 armor and magic resist as bonus from his ultimate activation and tends to build bruiser and has crowd control and mobility to back up his somewhat lessened damage from building tanky

all in all, riot needs to rebrand their divisions a bit, but it would be interesting if they started making role specific items to add some flavor to the mix

UltraboomerJan 12, 20162 votes

generally the only difference is that fighter juggernauts do more damage and tanks have more CC, but they both build lots of health and resistances rather than raw damage. I honestly think that poppy is incorrectly classified right now and should be a fighter instead of a tank primary, but her ult and her E are probably why it's primary tank instead.

KnoyleJan 12, 20162 votes

Lulu Mid? item 3115 item 3100 item 3124 item 3146 item 3153 item 1310

WyrmbladeJan 12, 20162 votes

In my experience, Tahm Kench, Maokai and Poppy are all very useable as top lane tanks this patch.

AezanthyaJan 11, 20169 votes

Playing against nasus is so frustrating : you either stomp him and you're fine. You don't stomp him but he does not kill you and you pray that you finish the game fast. You don't stomp him, the game lasts for too long and you get Q'd to death/see your towers die in 2 sec and you're force to send 2-3 people just to stop him.

I never understood how that was considered a healthy champion but that's just me. (i'm not saying he's broken or needs nerf. I think he needs a rework.)

Big LincolnJan 11, 20163 votes

because it's your job to either deny him farm outright or group early and force objectives

if you don't deny him farm and your jungler doesn't help you put him back down, and you/your team take long enough being disorganized that he can powerfarm and push, you're not gonna enjoy fighting him

DrNovaJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ew8uq3FM,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-01-11T22:26:37.079+0000)

because it's your job to either deny him farm outright or group early and force objectives

if you don't deny him farm and your jungler doesn't help you put him back down, and you/your team take long enough being disorganized that he can powerfarm and push, you're not gonna enjoy fighting him

But you have to agree that simply length if a game being country play to a champ is kinda stupid

Yuri By MailJan 12, 20162 votes

No, we don't have to agree with you. At all. You don't play Renekton to have a passive lane. You don't play Teemo just to farm. You play lane bullies and champions that aren't fun to play against for one reason, to tilt your enemy until you win. You don't let Veigar have a farm lane. The burden of the lane lies on you if your enemy outscales. Win the lane or you throw the game.

Big LincolnJan 12, 20162 votes

No, that's how late game champions work. If they haven't immediately gained an edge and snowballed out of control, they're just going to farm up and hit late game anyway.

That being said, you can counterplay Nasus even when he gets that far by forcing him to defend instead of letting his team stall you while he eats your towers. You need to force the 4v5 and take objectives faster than he can. Or you lose.

Kiting him in teamfights works too.

forrestoJan 11, 20168 votes

correction: you either stomp him, and then he scales somewhat less into the mid-game where things become even or bad for you, or you cant stop him from farming and he shits on you no matter how tanky you are.

Only Play DariusJan 11, 20165 votes

Or, once he gets to a point where you can't zone him anymore, you roam and snowball the game and he won't follow you (if he does then he loses stacks and/or gets killed in teamfights because he doesn't have enough items )

Nasus is a free win so long as the rest of your team isn't feeding

JSTIN8Jan 12, 20162 votes

Just kite him. I play Nasus all the time and the worst thing to see is a Janna or alistar support or a CC heavy team comp in general. Yes I have wither and ghost to try and get somewhere but that means jack all of i keep getting knocked up, slowed, and stunned.

Electro522Jan 12, 20163 votes

Playing against him could be frustrating at times, but just remeber, it can be frustrating for Nasus too.

Played a game where the enemy Kha got stupidly fed (ended up going 34 and 6, or something). Out team was doing OK if we could quickly knock out Kha before he blew everyone up. Come the end of the game, I tried going on Kha to burst him down (I had well over 450 stacks), but, our Kass got caught out slightly, and had to run. Kha jumped after him and killed him. That reset ended up with Kha (who had an evolved ult) bouncing and shifting and dancing circles around me, picking off each of my teammates one by one, until no one was left but me. Even as fed as he was, I could still take him alone quite easily, but even a late game Nasus can't stand against an entire late game team.

YumaS2AstralJan 12, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ew8uq3FM,comment-id=00030004,timestamp=2016-01-12T00:45:39.439+0000)

Playing against him could be frustrating at times, but just remeber, it can be frustrating for Nasus too.

Played a game where the enemy Kha got stupidly fed (ended up going 34 and 6, or something). Out team was doing OK if we could quickly knock out Kha before he blew everyone up. Come the end of the game, I tried going on Kha to burst him down (I had well over 450 stacks), but, our Kass got caught out slightly, and had to run. Kha jumped after him and killed him. That reset ended up with Kha (who had an evolved ult) bouncing and shifting and dancing circles around me, picking off each of my teammates one by one, until no one was left but me. Even as fed as he was, I could still take him alone quite easily, but even a late game Nasus can't stand against an entire late game team.

Nasus isn't as amazing late game as people say that he is.

He is only good late game in regards to how powerful he is on 1x1 situations. However, he still has problems in teamfights. If enemies have enough CC to keep him at bay, or if enemies just focus Nasus's allies, then Nasus can't do shit late game.

NarzghalJan 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mega Minun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ew8uq3FM,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-11T22:17:05.455+0000)

Playing against nasus is so frustrating : you either stomp him and you're fine. You don't stomp him but he does not kill you and you pray that you finish the game fast. You don't stomp him, the game lasts for too long and you get Q'd to death/see your towers die in 2 sec and you're force to send 2-3 people just to stop him.

I never understood how that was considered a healthy champion but that's just me. (i'm not saying he's broken or needs nerf. I think he needs a rework.)

Nasus is perfectly fine. His identity is q farm and be passive until mid or late game. Until he gets close to a couple hundred stacks he can't duel very well with most top laners. He is so easily bullied out of lane, every time he goes to q, hit him. If you can push him constantly and hit his tower, make it fall quickly, he can't do much. It's really hard for him to farm after his first tower falls, and then you can go push other lanes. This coming from a nasus player and what has always been effective against me. If your lanes are ahead, he's so behind he can't even tank, or get to the adc to whither them. I feel he got some help with the couple new items and masteries, he doesn't feel as weak has I felt he was a few patches ago. Or maybe the big bullies got toned down a bit. Either way, he's fine.

PartholonianJan 11, 20166 votes

Laning doesn't have to be about killing people, and Riot should definitely not listen to the opinion of anyone who thinks a lane is "dull" if nobody dies.

Furthermore, you could always roam or tp to kill a non-tank, there are usually some on the enemy team.

But picking a tank into someone who wants to get early kills and snowball should be a completely valid counterpick.

P.S. And if they keep tweaking herald until it does what it's supposed to, "shove them in and take herald" should be a reasonable option too, if your jungler is willing to help with it.

My Waifu VanillaJan 11, 20165 votes

Honestly, my only problem with Nasus is his passive since after level 7 or so it does not matter HOW much you have been shitting on him when he can Q and heal for 5% of his health or close to it.

Only Play DariusJan 11, 20165 votes

His passive by itself isn't really his sustain, it's more dependent on his Q stacks. If he did a good job last hitting during his weak shit early game then he deserves a reward

nightsharksJan 12, 20164 votes

I was playing Nasus against a GP, and was powerfarming as any good Nasus should through the first 20 minutes of the game. He kept trying to poke me out with his Q, and then I would heal up with my Q AND get stacks. It was super frustrating for him, I could tell. He'd try and zone me out with barrels, but I completely ignored him and kept farming without losing much health at all. Oh the joys of being a Nasus player.

On a more serious note, Nasus has more counter than people give him credit for. His early game is terrible, with an 8 second cooldown on his Q and only 10% lifesteal. If you can deny him farm in the first ten minutes of the game, you should be good to go. He'll either spend the rest of the game farming to catch up or dying in teamfights. Because of his farm-reliant playstyle, he usually has to sit out early and mid game to get those coveted Q stacks. This means no TPs anywhere unless you want to miss out on 3-5 waves of fresh minion meat, which equates to roughly 100-150 stacks. If Nasus gets 600 stacks by 20 mins, and the other lanes are all getting stomped on, chances are he's not going to make much of a difference. Chain CC shuts him down pretty fast as well, because a lot of his survivability is reliant on lifesteal + Q. I was playing against Varus and Lux, and Lux would snare me so Varus could ult me and the rest of the team took me down pretty fast. Nasus also has no gap closer, which is why a lot of people take ghost. You wanna 1-shot the carry? Gotta catch them first!

tl;dr Nasus is love, Nasus is life.

SkiasJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I was playing Nasus against a GP, and was powerfarming as any good Nasus should through the first 20 minutes of the game. He kept trying to poke me out with his Q, and then I would heal up with my Q AND get stacks. It was super frustrating for him, I could tell. He'd try and zone me out with barrels, but I completely ignored him and kept farming without losing much health at all. Oh the joys of being a Nasus player.

On a more serious note, Nasus has more counter than people give him credit for. His early game is terrible, with an 8 second cooldown on his Q and only 10% lifesteal. If you can deny him farm in the first ten minutes of the game, you should be good to go. He'll either spend the rest of the game farming to catch up or dying in teamfights. Because of his farm-reliant playstyle, he usually has to sit out early and mid game to get those coveted Q stacks. This means no TPs anywhere unless you want to miss out on 3-5 waves of fresh minion meat, which equates to roughly 100-150 stacks. If Nasus gets 600 stacks by 20 mins, and the other lanes are all getting stomped on, chances are he's not going to make much of a difference. Chain CC shuts him down pretty fast as well, because a lot of his survivability is reliant on lifesteal + Q. I was playing against Varus and Lux, and Lux would snare me so Varus could ult me and the rest of the team took me down pretty fast. Nasus also has no gap closer, which is why a lot of people take ghost. You wanna 1-shot the carry? Gotta catch them first!

tl;dr Nasus is love, Nasus is life.

This is the exact reason hes so boring to fight. Hes like shen and yorick, binary and super unengaging. Im surprised he wasnt above shen for a rework since hes in worse shape.

nightsharksJan 12, 20164 votes

Not every champion can have fifteen ways to play, I like him because he's simple and fun. You get punished for mistakes, rewarded for things done right.