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Real Talk: Why is League 5v5? Why Does Support Exist?

Prometheus856··6 votes·2,097 views

There is one obvious answer: to make ADCs viable. ADCs need damage sponges and CC cannons to keep them alive until they have the chance to redeem themselves after laning. Acknowledging this, let's move to the actual discussion.

If League were suddenly a 4v4 tomorrow, what is the role that would disappear immediately? The answer is, of course, support. ADCs would then be replaced because of that change, but that would take a day or two.

The question is, why does support exist? Riot's done everything in their power to make it an exciting, meaningful part of the League experience and despite this, it's still the most universally hated role. People dislike playing support. ADCs don't like relying on supports. Why? Because support is built from the ground up to be the least impactful role in the game. But they're still there. Why? Because there's nowhere else for them to go. They're literally the fifth wheel on the League experience. There are 4 inherent places on the map for a player to go - 3 lanes, and the jungle. They go bot because ADCs are horribly weak to everything from assassins to tanks (which is a recurring problem in league's balance philosophy).

I don't get it. If it were me, I'd make league a 4v4 tomorrow and rebalance champions accordingly. Most of the support champions can survive in other lanes anyway - at least, until they're nerfed in order to keep them from doing anything as a support, and killing them in any other role.

If the role were removed, the game would be better for it.

28 Comments

Kuroi864 votes

Because support is built from the ground up to be the least impactful role in the game.

Me thinks you have it backwards. Supports have the potential to be one of the most impactful roles in the game. Supports are able to bring damage, cc or tankiness to the table, they often are the main reason for a winning team having good vision. A good support does more than just take blows for the ADC, a good support is focused on setting up plays and keeping as much map awareness as possible and signalling your other lanes to be wary of enemy junglers or roaming mids.

Also, when league started, it was made as a 5v5 for the heck of it. The meta evolved from that, and with the meta, the support. It's not like the meta came first, in this case the chicken most definitely came before the egg.

FyshinaTux1 votes

{quoted} in this case the chicken most definitely came before the egg.

Well, if the meta came out of the 5v5, that would make the meta the chicken, and the egg the 5v5. So the Egg would have come first in this scenario. ;)

Kuroi861 votes

Smart butt lol, you know that metaphor goes both ways. The point is, the meta evolved thanks to the players, it wasn't Riot that did it.

And while Riot claims to not want to "enforce" the meta. They also don't deny that it works, they support the meta. Of course they also support cases where you may want to break the meta (APMF anyone?)

FyshinaTux1 votes

aye, both ways it does go indeed. :D

SeCKS Egai2 votes

{quoted}

Me thinks you have it backwards. Supports have the potential to be one of the most impactful roles in the game. Supports are able to bring damage, cc or tankiness to the table, they often are the main reason for a winning team having good vision. A good support does more than just take blows for the ADC, a good support is focused on setting up plays and keeping as much map awareness as possible and signalling your other lanes to be wary of enemy junglers or roaming mids.

Also, when league started, it was made as a 5v5 for the heck of it. The meta evolved from that, and with the meta, the support. It's not like the meta came first, in this case the chicken most definitely came before the egg.

Supports weren't common season 1, but came into existence as it was the most efficient.

I can understand players hating supports and the support role, as I've had my fair share of frustrations. But being the "least popular" does not mean people universally hate it as there are a significant amount of players who actually play it primarily.

We're basically 5 seasons in and its sad at just how little some people understand the game dynamics.

Kuroi861 votes

Truthfully when I tried support, I enjoyed it. The only problem is I started getting stuck with moron ADC' and placed against supports that counter me. The dive meta for bot lane was dying, and truthfully I'm not that fond of poke or heal comps. =/

Support can be a fun role, when it goes the way you want it to.

FyshinaTux3 votes

"real talk"

"Supports are built from the ground up to have the least impact on the game"

this community...

Let me clue you in on what supports do, and what GOOD supports do.

Supports ward drake and baron, GOOD supports ward the enemy jungle so you know where the jungler is, and can plan something around that, getting your team into a GOLD advantage and not just a "vision" advantage.

Supports throw out CC spells and can zone enemy champions, GOOD supports will zone enemy champions without wasting mana, and will land that crucial CC when it's needed.

Supports don't CS, GOOD supports know how to, and can last hit under turret when the ADC is out of lane, and know how/when to push lane hard to better the entire team without messing up the ADC's CS.

Supports try to body-block for their ADC when pushed under turret, GOOD supports "soften" minion waves when pushed under turret to allow the ADC to actually last hit each minion.

Supports have the least impact... get real, just because they don't get all the kills, doesn't mean they don't have an impact on the game.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

{quoted}

"real talk"

"Supports are built from the ground up to have the least impact on the game"

this community...

Let me clue you in on what supports do, and what GOOD supports do.

Supports ward drake and baron, GOOD supports ward the enemy jungle so you know where the jungler is, and can plan something around that, getting your team into a GOLD advantage and not just a "vision" advantage.

Supports throw out CC spells and can zone enemy champions, GOOD supports will zone enemy champions without wasting mana, and will land that crucial CC when it's needed.

Supports don't CS, GOOD supports know how to, and can last hit under turret when the ADC is out of lane, and know how/when to push lane hard to better the entire team without messing up the ADC's CS.

Supports try to body-block for their ADC when pushed under turret, GOOD supports "soften" minion waves when pushed under turret to allow the ADC to actually last hit each minion.

Supports have the least impact... get real, just because they don't get all the kills, doesn't mean they don't have an impact on the game.

I find that supports are too dependent on the actions of their team to make an impact I would say everything a support does is kinda fking meaningless if your team is a dumbass warding drake is fine, but if ur team doesnt go contest for it.. might as well not be warded peeling for adc is fine, but he/she might be a dumbass and rush back into danger shet soften up the creeps is fine too, but adc might not be able to cs for shit and blame the guy hitting minions not limited to supports but they can engage too, annnd team doesnt follow up

making an impact would be killing threats and taking turrets ol

FyshinaTux2 votes

See, you have the CoD mentality, where KD ratio is king (not even worrying about the A, because really, those are for the supports that don't affect the game at all...)

Seriously, that could be said of ANY ROLE. It's a team game, if one person isn't carrying their weight, then sure, the game is likely lost. But that's not JUST the mid, adc, top or jungle, that also falls on the support.

You want to know the MOST EASILY NOTICABLE impact that supports have on the game? They buy wards, so the rest of the team doesn't have to (until you realize that you need wards, and start buying them in other roles, but that's not until like Plat to Diamond from what I hear.) What impact does this have? It prevents the carries' builds from being delayed by the need for vision. Which means, that without supports, it'll take another 5-10 minutes of gameplay and farming for the carries to get to that power spike.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

{quoted}

See, you have the CoD mentality, where KD ratio is king (not even worrying about the A, because really, those are for the supports that don't affect the game at all...)

Seriously, that could be said of ANY ROLE. It's a team game, if one person isn't carrying their weight, then sure, the game is likely lost. But that's not JUST the mid, adc, top or jungle, that also falls on the support.

You want to know the MOST EASILY NOTICABLE impact that supports have on the game? They buy wards, so the rest of the team doesn't have to (until you realize that you need wards, and start buying them in other roles, but that's not until like Plat to Diamond from what I hear.) What impact does this have? It prevents the carries' builds from being delayed by the need for vision. Which means, that without supports, it'll take another 5-10 minutes of gameplay and farming for the carries to get to that power spike.

I'm not saying kda is all that matters but... killing off high priority threats and breaking down a tower makes a clear impact like you dont even have to give 2 shits about what your team is doing or will do.. impact made

but for supports, your team just needs to follow up on everything you do...

Sightless661 votes

In my experience, playing ADC is so much more team reliant than support. As a support, I can stun a guy or peel someone and have a reasonable expectation that my allies have at least the 5 IQ points necessary to figure out what to do next. "Oh, that guy just got Thresh hooked? Murder him. Oh, Annie just flash ulted the entire team? Time to follow-up. Oh, Braum just shielded? I can hit things now". Easy decisions.

However, when I'm playing ADC, it all goes to hell. "Well team, I'd like to do damage, but if Kha'zix isn't controlled, I will die instantly". "OK mate, I understand. Now, please excuse me while I try to dive their Nautilus". Playing someone without CC sucks if your team doesn't know what they are doing.

I can always trust someone to know how to do damage. It's the easiest thing in the game. Actually keeping someone alive to do damage is much harder. That's why I main support. Being good at it is the easiest way to win.

the Anarchit3cht3 votes

I can't tell you the number of kills I've set up for my ADC that would otherwise not be possible without me. And then what does everyone say? "Oh wow. GJ Adc!" I also can't tell you the number of counter jungle attempts I've turned around by placing a good ward or roaming with the jungle for a bit. I also can't tell you how many mid or top lanes I've turned around after roaming up there since I scored a few early kills for my ADC and set them up in a good spot to freeze lane and maximize their farm.

Support is the most "hated" role because most everything they do isn't as noticeable. Sure the mid laner and jungler might have killed the enemy jungler at red and baited the mid laner into it for a double kill. But they only had that opportunity because of MY ward. Sure the ADC managed to dance around the team fight with grace and score that penta kill, but only because I gave him a shield here, slowed the enemy there, knocked up those three guys and pushed the Darius away while simultaneously healing my ADC right before he ALMOST got split in two. Yeah, it takes skill on the ADCs behalf to do all that. But even if he was the most skilled ADC in the entire world none of that would have been possible without what I brought to the table. I didn't make the flashy tumble to dodge the Ezreal ult while getting my third proc + empowered AA to kill the Amumu and then condemn the Darius into a wall while I finished off their Annie who had just blown her stun. But you know, I made many things happen in that teamfight. Just because they arent wow omg cool doesn't mean they were relevant

SmokingPuffin2 votes

There is one obvious answer: to make ADCs viable. ADCs need damage sponges and CC cannons to keep them alive until they have the chance to redeem themselves after laning. Acknowledging this, let's move to the actual discussion.

False premise is false. ADCs are the most mandatory of mandatory classes to any team composition. They are the only solution to late game tanks and by far the best solution for killing objectives. If Summoner's Rift became 4v4, the most likely result would be ADCs going mid. Back in the ancient 2-1-2 meta, the dominant pick for mid lane was ADC, because we hadn't yet discovered 0cs play and that was how we got the ADCs the gold they need to carry.

Why? Because support is built from the ground up to be the least impactful role in the game.

Support is probably the second most impactful role in the game. Top lane is built from the ground up to be the least impactful role, being miles away from the real action...which is in bot lane, where the support is.

They go bot because ADCs are horribly weak to everything from assassins to tanks (which is a recurring problem in league's balance philosophy).

ADCs murder every tank in 1v1 laning. Assassin versus ADC is a matchup dependent thing, but if we take a neutral example, Corki has no real problems laning against Zed.

If the role were removed, the game would be better for it.

This strikes me as unlikely. Fundamentally, people love support kits. They're really popular whenever they get to be viable in solo lanes, most recently with Lulu being the most popular solo laner. The reason people don't like support is that you don't get much gold, and the little gold you do get you have to spend on wards and team support items.

Turns out that as long as there are wards and team support items, you're going to need someone to buy them. Probably that would be the jungler, but then we end up with a role that is even more hated than support is today.

Knight Devout1 votes

This strikes me as unlikely. Fundamentally, people love support kits. They're really popular whenever they get to be viable in solo lanes, most recently with Lulu being the most popular solo laner. The reason people don't like support is that you don't get much gold, and the little gold you do get you have to spend on wards and team support items.

False. People don't enjoy support kits, they enjoy kit like Lulu which includes not-interactive harass and lane dominance, and that incidentally are usually given to supports to overcome their strategic weakness (half or less gold compared to laners, lowest level in game, etc.)

WHIMSY! There, I won that trade? LOOK AT MUH SKILLZ! Then they rightfully nerfed mid Lulu and top lulu, acknowledged that support Lulu was weaker as a result, and concluded saying "Fuck you support Lulu!".

SmokingPuffin1 votes

People don't enjoy support kits, they enjoy kit like Lulu which includes not-interactive harass and lane dominance, and that incidentally are usually given to supports to overcome their strategic weakness (half or less gold compared to laners, lowest level in game, etc.)

Lulu has a really strong kit for 1v1 laning. That's a Lulu thing, and not true of all supports. Many supports have ended up being popular at one time or another in the solo lanes. Taric top, Janna mid, Soraka mid, Thresh top, Karma top were all popular at some point in the last two seasons. Supports are also often favorite champions on the non-SR game modes where they get an equal share of the money.

I'm pretty sure the story here is that people don't like having less gold than everyone else. The support gameplay of buffing allies, CCing enemies, and having kits focused on utility effects is quite popular. The remedy with supports is probably not deleting the support role. It's probably something more like what HotS is trying, where scaling is a team thing and supports are among the most popular picks as a result.

Then they rightfully nerfed mid Lulu and top lulu, acknowledged that support Lulu was weaker as a result, and concluded saying "Fuck you support Lulu!".

Riot will always balance against whatever a champion's best role is. There's no way around collateral damage to support Lulu if solo lane Lulu is too strong.

Knight Devout1 votes

More than gold, it's about options. But, whatever, maybe support is not the least impactful, but it sure is the less fun to play and less rewarding.

FiraBurn2 votes

I argree with this guy I see games where they had team with no support and they always win vs teams with support. supports are just over rated.

Origami Kaiju2 votes

Because support is built from the ground up to be the least impactful role in the game

You're failing to see an important distinction here.

Support is in fact the most team reliant role, which to me is quite obvious. But to say that supports have the "least impact"? That's crazy.

I encourage you to go watch some high elo support streams or spectates, and come back with your findings. I can't imagine that you could watch a challenger Thresh main, and come back and say that their role had the "least impact" in their matches.

9kPluzZ1 votes

Lol wtf are you taking about? most adc are just as viable midlane as botlane. The only differnce is that mages have a lil cc but adcs make up for it with better damage output. Tell me one reason why you couldnt take a Ez, graves, lucian, tristana, corki, or even caitlyn mid vs a annie, lux, veigar, oriana etc. Supprot exist because ther has to be some one who wards, protects , and isnt worth as much gold so the other members are. In a differnt world i could see supports being mid to protect them from ganks>

DankyNugz2 votes

The reason supports lane with ADC's is not because Marksmen are fragile. but because in general, traditional mid and top laners do more with experience (leveled up skills), where as marksman do more with gold (more auto attacks, harder hitting). Mid and top laners tend to have high base damage increases on their skills. Placing the support with the current meta of mid laners would be counter productive, as the experience leached from the mid laner would decrease their effectiveness more than it would leaching exp from a marksman.

LongFur Fox1 votes

If supports leave the game then either top or jungle will get their responsibility and pick up wards and sightstones and be a full on peeler for the adc. Some adc's would go unviable like ashe and jinx but otherwise nothing much would change i think.

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

not sure if ashe would be unviable since wasn't she placed mid a long time ago

LongFur Fox1 votes

She was there because she was one of the best champions in the game. You have to remember that this was during a time where gap closers where a rare thing. If you have ever played against ashe in a game where no one has gap closers you will see that she is still very strong. Without a support in lane however she is very easy to get on top on and kill

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

ok, never played back when that was meta so did not know why it was meta, thank you for informing me.

FarRockBF1 votes

Not entirely sure. I would think Top, Mid, 2 Bot is better than 1,1,1,jungle. A good support will hard zone the enemy ADC into getting No CS and no EXP making her useless. Then they can duo roam later and wreck everyone.

Knight Devout1 votes

Depends on the adc and how well he can farm under turret. Plus, level 6 , the enemy duo lane is still level 4, if the jungler ganks (which, by the way, is level 6 too because he's clearing your own jungle) it will be hard to contest.

I know because when the adc disconnects, I usually ask the jungler to gank as soon as he and I hit 6 to take advantage of that window of levels.

Knight Devout1 votes

The point is , supports are over-rated, and that's true- INB4 but a Thresh Pull! Morgana Snare! Yes, I see them, occasionally do them, but then I compare that clutch grab with which we deprived them of a team member with a MUTHAFUCKIN' SHOCKWAVE FROM ORIANNA THAT GIVES SHOUTCASTER ORGASMS AND WIN THE GAME!

"But muh wards! MUH VISION!"

You know, there are been cases of boxers winning a match after having been hit on an eye so hard that it was closed from the swollen eyebrow . I still have to see a boxer win a match with a broken arm. Which means, with enough care and attention, you can guess what the enemy is doing without vision, but once you get to the point of a fight, I know what I prefer to have in a teamfight between a support, or a well fed midlane mage/assassin/fighter.

"Muh cc!"

Supports have usually a lot of cc, I'll give you that , but they pay dearly for that. Wanna give a look to braum's scalings? 2,5% Max health on Q(Ok , guys, stop laughing , he's sensible), and 0,6 AP ratio on ult . Oh, and a defensive 16% bonus resistances on W. yes, the shield IS for compensation. Support mages do have nice ap scalings but you will be always be second fiddle compared to mages, of course, so no, Nami, the Blue is for Orianna.

And, last but not least, let's talk about "FUN!"

What, supports are supposed to have fun? Aren't there just to spoonfed me kills and exhaust assassins who dive me?

...yes, that's what they are supposed to do! Hence why you wait 25 minutes in teambuilder waiting for a person altruistic enough to play the role (or, most usually, that is training for ranked). Seriously tho, there is a reason why everytime you queue for team builder or normals the supports are the less numerous , and it's because the role itself it's not fun, and most of it rewards are unnoticed. With season 4 and the spellthief edge , some mages can be played bot and the role got a little more popularity, but at the end of the day, it will always be the last wheel, Riot acknowledged that.

Abyssphere1 votes

I think a better question than the one in the OP is why anyone would want supports not to exist. Just because the role is not for you doesn't mean it's not for anyone. Yeah you might get screwed over if your support sucks but guess what, supports get screwed over by terrible ADCs too. Personally there isn't much I enjoy more in this game than playing support with a good ADC. I honestly think you get to do the coolest plays as a support.

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