Jarvan IV is a little ridiculous right now. Here's a few reasons why.

mi ramfan·2/13/2015, 2:59:59 AM·36 votes·7,283 views

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I know that this is going to seem rather weird during all the discussion of Nemesis draft, shitty ranked placements, and Lee Sin hate, but please hear me out.

Jarvan IV is pretty broken right now.

I'm not sure that I could give a specific reason why he became broken when he wasn't a few patches ago. What I'd like to do, though, is discuss both my rationale for saying he's broken and go over the negative effects that someone like Jarvan being broken has on the game.

##Statistics Don't Lie

The only champion more statistically fearsome than Jarvan IV on patch 5.2 was Ahri. (Source: http://pryorability.blogspot.com/2015/02/league-of-legends-tier-list-patch-52.html) After Jarvan and Ahri, the next two champions, while certainly very strong, fall off extremely hard. But then Ahri got nerfed in 5.3, while Jarvan IV was left completely untouched.

Balancing by win and pick rate does have a somewhat poor reputation on these forums. Yes, many champions who we think are extremely strong or extremely annoying to deal with have low win rates, like Lee Sin. But while people can make a very convincing argument that Lee Sin takes skill to play well (artificially decreasing his win rate), nobody can really argue with any credibility that Jarvan is a hard champion. The only thing that makes Jarvan difficult is not screwing your team with his ult, but that's much less of a big deal now that you can cancel his ult on demand.

##Team Synergy

There is never a BAD time to pick Jarvan. This is because Jarvan is literally the prototypical jungler at this point. Strong early ganks with hard CC? Check. Steroids/free damage for clearing? Check. Can build full AD to snowball harder if he's fed, but doesn't suffer at all in a full tank build? Check. Jarvan provides everything to your team that you could ever want a jungler to provide. That would be alright if he was a champion who did everything kind of OK but wasn't outstanding or even above average at anything. But he's not. He's just...what you want your jungler to look like, regardless of your team comp. Outside of his status as one of the best ganking junglers, every playstyle wants him. Poke/Siege wants him for his E steroid and Q poke. AoE teams want him because he's Jarvan. Late-game focused scaling teams want him because he's incredible at whatever you build him into, tank or fighter. Assassin comps want him because in midgame having J4 is like having a second Zed.

There's something to be said for seeing how the Gnar changes, small as they are, affect his viability, but I don't think they'll hurt him at all. Jarvan doesn't need Gnar in particular because any champion with an AoE wombo functions well alongside J4; on the other hand, the shape of Jarvan's ult wall made it nearly impossible for Gnar to miss a multi-man stun, making him function much better with Jarvan than he did alone.

##Variety Killer

Jarvan is too good at too many things. He's a generic bruiser from the "giant ball of stats" era of melee champion design. So, naturally, he's a jack of all trades who for a long time did basically everything at an average level, but was never really a great pick. Obviously, that's changed now. Jarvan is so good at everything you want a jungler to do that no specialist junglers can exist while he's a strong pick. When junglers entirely focused around ganking gank only a little better than Jarvan does, while Jarvan does literally every other aspect of the game just as well or better than they do, there is no reason to play anyone other than Jarvan unless he's banned.

To better illustrate this point, let's look at a specific class of champion that's pushed out by J4.

So long as Jarvan IV is a strong champion, there is no reason to play tank junglers. I wish that I could say this wasn't the case. But one of Jarvan IV's biggest strengths is his ability to hard engage for his team. This puts him directly in the middle of the niche of tank junglers, who often lack the damage of bruisers early but make up for it with their large amounts of CC and hard engage capability. Jarvan has both the burst and sustained damage of a bruiser and the CC and engage of a tank. Why would you even consider giving up that early game damage to pick someone like Sejuani or Nautilus when you could just pick Jarvan who deals twice as much damage early game while being able to build full tank just as well as they can late game?

Essentially, Jarvan needs to get hit HARD in 5.4. He simply has too much of everything, being a melee champion made in the days when every melee champion had to have too much of everything. He is by far the dominant jungler statistically, and his mere existence makes many other junglers unpickable. He has no thematic identity other than "manly man who takes a long time to die and kills you quickly".

Riot plz.

EDIT: If everyone else is underpowered to J4, that's literally the same thing as J4 being overpowered. But it's always easier to nerf one champion then it is to buff literally every other jungler.

80 Comments

Learn 2 Swim2/13/2015, 8:23:42 AM19 votes

you know this games balance is shit when a nerf J4 thread is getting upvotes

Raxxius2/13/2015, 5:12:20 AM11 votes

{quoted}

Yup, J4's a problem. Mostly it's the "too generalist" thing that is really causing problems for jungle health.

Junglers actually really do need to be generalists, else they have no real influence on the game.

J4 got a big buff this season which seems to of completely flown under the radar, and that's the warrior enchantment item 3707 .

While a lot of junglers did well with the warrior enchant, J4 and Lee Sin (and to a lesser extent Vi) got huge power boosts from this item. Both champs absolutely get the best out of every single stat, and the phenomenal gold efficiency of the item is only magnifying their early game power.

Straight nerfing the champion would harm his toplaning which is strong for snowballing but not game breaking, it's the access to the very powerful warrior enchantment combined with him being a solid low level ganker which is pushing him over the edge.

I know a lot of people have multiple different theories to why bruisers don't feel so healthy in the game, for me it's actually simple. Bruisers don't have item ownership, nearly every bruiser item in the game is terrible for gold efficiency (per example the two cornerstone items for AP and AD item 3089 and item 3031 have over 100% gold efficiency, while bruiser items like item 3068 have 80% odd stat efficiency). As such they end up getting tank items or AD caster assassin items. Bruisers then suffer from either doing less CC than tanks or being too squishy.

Not being able to itemize efficiently just means bruisers need to offset poor itemization with bonus stats. This just gives champs like J4 stupendous snowball power by going AD caster on the back of a few kills.

If Riot fixed item 3068 item 3022 item 3025 item 3091 to not be inefficient gold sinks then they could address the free stat buffet on bruisers. Until they do that however, J4 is going to buy tank items as they're more efficient and allow his free stats to pick up the pace.

SmokingPuffin2/13/2015, 3:21:11 AM11 votes

Yup, J4's a problem. Mostly it's the "too generalist" thing that is really causing problems for jungle health.

Ulquiorra9952/13/2015, 8:47:47 AM7 votes

If Jarvan goes down, Lee needs to go down too. He has all these problems you presented with Jarvan but for much longer.

Focus Teemo2/13/2015, 7:07:48 AM6 votes

Why we should NEVER nerf J4... what would we get from it? EVEN MORE Lee sin that's what! Other than that we will have Vi replace him. No thank you sir, the jungle champion pool is bad enough. We would be better served buffing other junglers... besides some of them REALLY need buffs. No amount of J4 nerfs will make Zac, Elise, etc. viable again.

Granted a touch up here or there would still be needed... but he is Lu Bu after all.

Bears Dont Care2/13/2015, 4:52:23 AM5 votes

Jarvan is not broken, lee sin is broken. Jarvan is strong because he can somewhat keep up with lee sin. Everyone else has been nerfed terribly.

So it is the environment, your complaint is of a aymptom and not an actual problem.

Minuano2/13/2015, 6:24:07 AM5 votes

Jarvan himself is actually fine. I think it's really obnoxious to see him every game, but I don't think he's overpowered, himself. It's the fact that other junglers are so much weaker comparatively that is concerning.

MrSlowDie2/13/2015, 7:35:43 AM4 votes

I wonder who will rise after jarvan and vi nerf

OnanThaMan2/13/2015, 6:06:05 PM3 votes

And i'm willing to bet that J4 will get nerfed before Lee. Effectively taking Lee's main competition out of the picture, oh gawd its Elise all over again...

Cows Are Holy2/13/2015, 3:17:28 AM3 votes

Wasn't Jarvan only buffed a small amount all last season? I think it's more of the crazy nerfs to Kha'zix, Elise and Eve and a little to Lee Sin that made him super OP. I really think Riot should be buffing those guys more and other junglers like Amumu, Naut, Wukong, Skarner and a bunch more. Because really, right now the jungle has the least variety...Lee, Rek,sai and J4 are the only 3 that are really played much in competitive (obviously not all) and Solo Queue only adds some cheese junglers to the big three (Shaco, Yi etc). Thank god nid jg is a thing now :)

M Jarvan2/13/2015, 8:48:51 AM3 votes

Maybe when you get out of bronze you'll learn how to better deal with him.

Hellish Prophecy2/13/2015, 11:28:08 AM3 votes

Very few people had complaints about him until the new jungle....THEN they want him nerfed into oblivion. Note: I am not saying he shouldn't be nerfed, I'm saying on forums/boards noone really cared until the new jungle./

AFK Push2/13/2015, 12:55:10 PM3 votes

If j4 commits to an all in, well he can't back out of it. If LeeSin feels like it was a bad idea, then he will just ward hop away or ult you away. Not to mention, that j4 has mana problems if not careful and LeeSin is energy based... Sooooooooo

pE4CbxDPQO2/13/2015, 3:06:40 AM3 votes

You have my upvote. Jarvan is too good in my opinion, BUT I don't feel like he is op. He can't chain gank like a handful of jungler because he has mana issues and late game he is sort of a one trick pony that everyone SHOULD see coming from miles off. I sort of hope we leave him alone outside of maybe smacking his passive down a bit.

Aboylova922/13/2015, 1:02:38 PM2 votes

A friend and I were talking during a game, and he mentioned that he thought J4 was almost a better Wukong. While he was pretty strong last season, the new jungle hurts Wu pretty bad, forcing him to not be able to gank very much early. J4 on the other hand is pretty strong all game, which is really a shame as I like him as a champ, and I'm glad he's getting play. Both could build full AD if ahead and snowball quite hard along with being teamfight monsters, but with J4 being able to survive the jungle so well, he's in a much better position.

What realistically needs to happen is the jungle needs to get changed around some to allow others to flourish. I think certain roles are actually pretty good ATM, bot lane has a decent amount of diversity, with maybe a nerf or two to a few mid champions mid won't be too bad, but jungle really does feel like it needs some work. Went from my favorite role last season to by far my least favorite role this season.

who do we report2/13/2015, 3:24:18 AM2 votes

Rito please save me a ban

Jasiwel2/13/2015, 2:16:16 PM2 votes

If they nerfed his Cooldowns and tweaked his damage, he'd be alright. He can use a lot of abilities frequently and he can move quite fast for a dude clad in armor, carrying a pretty heavy and cumbersome weapon.

Madra2/13/2015, 3:19:51 PM2 votes

I'm going to guess these powers that have +110% to +150% to +200% bonus AD need to be looked at now that we are living in the era of warrior enchants and all that.

ImHerVoice2/13/2015, 3:30:37 PM2 votes

You're just bad. Its fine bro. I can teach you how to beat j4 if you want. Wanna do a custom game?