Even with 9 of them (granting 4.5% extra total hp) they still dont overtake scaling hp seals until around 5k hp which is totally bonkers and you should never be anticipating a 35-40 min game where you get that much hp just to justify the seals. Making them be stronger at around 2500-2900 hp doesn't sound like too much to ask for, a tank would have no incentive to get these if they wanted to take hp in seals.
Rip post.
Sum Wun Speshal58 votesI don't get why this is getting downvoted. This is perfectly legit.
Hyrum Graff4 votes[{quoted}](name=Sum Wun Speshal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=efLsdJio,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-26T00:39:13.686+0000)
I don't get why this is getting downvoted. This is perfectly legit.
It's only gotten 10 downvotes to the 156 upvotes. Not sure I would call that "getting downvoted."
Quepha4 votes[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=efLsdJio,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-01-26T18:21:14.782+0000)
It's only gotten 10 downvotes to the 156 upvotes. Not sure I would call that "getting downvoted."
it was probably at a minus when that post was made 18 hours ago.
Sum Wun Speshal1 votesyeah, it started of at -3 when I saw it the first time.
SirPurrr30 votesYup, they aren't worth it on literally anyone imo. They're a bit stronger than scaling HP early on though due to the base HP. There are countless runes that seem to exist more to trap new/bad players than to offer any meaningful diversity.
Scarabking17 votesYou could just take flat hp if you want the early game hit points.
High52 votesThat's what I did. They're also the most expensive seals too. Do you want a new champ or the seals?
Flat HP is a huge boost early, but definitely falls off quickly. However, scaling runes probably won't help if you fall behind either.
rtbf221479702 votesFlat health is better than hp scaling and armor up through level 7. Since this game is so snowbally I'd beg to argue that flat HP is the only way to go right now based on effective health alone.
FuntaC2 votesAgree. Games will likely end sooner, guaranteeing that early health will be useful, while later health might be wasted. Additionally, there is no way to know that an extra 200 health is necessary.
NichtHurz3 votesI take scaling hp vs magic burst dmg on my midlaners, especially since I'll rarely commit to constant trading with my enemy. Level 6/7 is reached quickly and this is where I want to have the extra health since fights will most likely start at this point. Before that the extra health doesn't really help me if I don't want to all-in very early. I'm actually quite a big fan of scaling defensive runes, since most of them outscale flat runes so quickly that I rather play more defensive early on, but have more defensive choices and overall survivability when I need it the most. Games end fast, yes, but they don't end as fast as they'd need to to make those runes worthless. I'll take scaling armor and scaling mr on Shaco for example. You don't really need armor for the jungle anyways and it won't help your early ganks in the most cases (you shouldn't(!) need it for early ganks). When I'm lvl6 the armor runes give me 9 armor already and it helps me alot to stay relevant throughout the game. Most Shaco's I see will become useless quite fast. They might kill somebody, but they'll just be insta-deleted in most situations. With those runes and my build I stay relevant at all stages in the game while still being able to deal massive burst dmg.
SpecterVonBaren1 votesOnly champ I could see them being useful on would be Sion in a 40+ minute game.
Dar Raksada3 votesOnly champ I could see them being useful on would be Sion in a 40+ minute game.
Even then, the minor hp buff when you hit 5-6K hp isn't worth it. By that time armor/mr would give you more effective hp, and the flat/scaling hp runes would've allowed you to farm/kill/assist more giving you more hp anyway.
Jorencice3 votesI take then on tahm considering his damage scales with bonus health.
With them and cinderhulk I've gotten my ult to add 270 damage to everything.
Melledoneus3 votesExactly. People need to realize that some runes just aren't good and Riot doesn't tell them. I mean, I learned the hard way. But now I know better.
Puts three Quintessences of Revival on rune page
KaisadiIIa5 votesPuts three Quintessences of Revival on rune page
Finally a counter to the Rengar meta.
AsphodelNext6 votesYou should consider % health at all points in the game, not just level 18. Level 1, they're way worse than flat HP, of course, but they're like 3-4x better than scaling.
Mid game, you can consider the following health breakpoints. Level 6: 1600 HP (this is also the health value to break even with flats) Level 12: 3200 HP Level 18: 4800 HP
If you have more health than the listed value at that level, you're getting more out of %health at that moment than you would out of scaling. That pretty much means that either you have to be going first item health, or you have some champ passive giving you bonus HP(Cho'gath).
I think I'd only ever run % health on Cho'gath(because 500-1000 free health), and maybe on Vlad, Mundo, Tahm Kench, and other HP matters champs. But at a certain point, you're going to be getting way more effective tankiness using armor runes and just having higher mitigation against ADC's. It's only ever going to be like a 100 HP difference between your runes anyway, which if you're closing in on 4k HP, doesn't really matter too much.
Scarabking2 votesI was just doing a few basic calculations but also you should remember if you're a tank taking these than it will be with mid game teamfights (maybe the odd skirmish early) in mind so at that point in the game is when they should kick on IMO. There's a lot of champions and item builds that you can say "BUT" with, however those are just niche cases i'd say.
TeCoolMage6 votesSIGH do I have to repeat all the math I've given AGAIN? Thank god I found the old thread!!
Scaling seals do NOT give all your HP at level 1. Flat HP is worse than %HP in all circumstances for some champions, better for others.
Here you go:
Well the math you've done is extremely in scaling health's favour because it only measures it from what's optimal with scaling runes, at level 18.
Let's do some more math. All math is made with one rune in mind. Multiply by the values by the amount of runes you have. 1.33 health per level (24) 8 health 0.5% health
For % to beat flat, you need 1600 health. For % to beat scaling, you need 4800 at level 18, or 266 per level. For scaling to beat flat, you need to be above level 6.
Now, if you gain more than 266*lvl health, you beat scaling runes. At level 1, you have at least 400 health if not more so it beats scaling by far early on. Let's look at the champion's health pools:
Highest starting health: Tryndamere 625.64 +lvl*98 (2291.6 at 18)
Highest health gain per level and total at level 18: Alistar 613.36 +lvl*106 (2415.4 at 18)
Lowest health gain per level and total at level 18: Gnar 540 +lvl*65 (1645 at 18)
Lowest starting health: Anivia 467.6 +lvl*70 (1657.6 at 18)
Ok so we immediately know that all these beat 266, let's look at how much health they give at level 1. Tryndamere: 3.1282 Alistar: 3.0668 Gnar: 2.7 Anivia: 2.338
Now let's look at the growths. How much HP per level they gain from 0.5%. Tryndamere: 0.49 Alistar: 0.53 Gnar: 0.325 Anivia: 0.35
Finally, at level 18. Tryndamere: 11.458 Alistar: 12.077 Gnar: 8.225 Anivia: 8.288
So let's look at what we have: 0.5% is layman (not secret geeky rune speech) for: b + gl + i * 0.5% b = base, the range is 3.1282 - 2.338 g = growth, the range is 0.53 - 0.325 l = level, the range is 18 - 1 i = items or bonus health. I am not going to tell you the range, who do you think I am?
So at level 1, base health wins by far, % health is far behind, and health per level is even farther behind. at level 18, scaling health wins by far, % health is far behind, and flat health trails behind.
And this is without items.
So what do I think? % health is only for mid game champs or early game tanks. Scaling health is for later game. Flat health is for early game non tanks.
Miku Lv995 votesIt's kinda good that they're bad since they'd just be a buff to 
and would still be really bad on most everyone else. Although things could probably be made overall better if they just nerfed and buffed those seals.
sir d wreck5 votesI hear that energy runes are a noob trap too!
Scarabking8 votesA few avid zed and kennen players make cases for them being useful sometimes. At least they are unique and serve a clear puprose.
YumaS2Astral2 votesA few avid zed and kennen players make cases for them being useful sometimes. At least they are unique and serve a clear puprose.
Still not worth using them over more common runes, though.
LaughingMan113 votesHonsetly, when used in Tandem with the %HP mastery and %HP Quints you end up with some like 12% HP boost, which adds up pretty quick, and even for early game, buying that Ruby crystal on its own is about 50 more Hp, id only run it on pure tanks though that will actually stack the HP, or have enough extra tank that they dont need early resists. (alistar/leona)
Scarabking13 votes% hp mastery? that got changed to flat 45 iirc
KoKoboto8 votes% hp mastery? that got changed to flat 45 iirc
FEEELS BAD MAAAN +45 HP NO THANKS MOST OF THE TIMEEEE
LankPants3 votesFeels terrible if you're a tank with no heal or shield. You don't want 45 HP but your alternative is nothing.
Spoofghoul7 votes8% more health regen and 8% stronger potions 8% more sustain from jungle item.
Yep already beats a measly 45 health
Frikgeek2 votesWHOA You're getting 12 extra hp from EVERY POTION!!! SUCH VALUE!! I'd still rather take 45hp as that actually matters in an all-in. 12 extra hp from pots and maybe 6 extra health from HP regen every minute is completely pointless.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesThe regeneration/shielding mastery scales much better and synergizes better with the rest of that tree though. Malph, Vi, Naut, Mundo anyone else with a health scaling shield/heal instantly wins with the shield/regeneration passive and also makes you heal more through Grasp of the Undying after like 4 hits in an all-in anyway so that argument is also flawed.
As said when they changed it to flat hp they completely missed the demographic they were trying to help with the change: ADCs. Most ADCs (if they took the mastery in the first place) received a nerf from the convert to flat hp at like level 12-15ish since their base health was high enough at that point to outscale 45 flat hp with the % that it used to be.
Frikgeek1 votesVeteran's Scars was always flat hp and it was always horrible, one of the worst masteries in the game in terms of gold/point back in S5. The %hp was juggernaut, a 1-point mastery unlocked if you dumped 3 points into the horrible Veteran's scars.
My Waifu Vanilla2 voteshttp://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Veteran's_Scars_(Season_2016_Mastery)
False. For the first 2 patches of preseason it gave 4% max health at rank 5.
Rinky Dinky3 votesAdd in quints they overtake scaling hp seals at 3200 hp
Auz the Ripper3 votesThe % Hp quints overtake the scaling Hp quints at 3200 At lvl 18
Mathematically, it's best to have % health quints and scaling health seals if you want the most health from runes.
PaladinNO3 votesSimply put (just pitching in some numbers here): with 9x percentage HP seals plus 3x percentage HP quints @ 3000 HP, you only get additional 270 HP. And with 3000 HP, you kinda don't need the extra 270 HP...not when at the expense of both seals and quintessences.
Especially not when factoring in the cost of those 12 runes: 13530 IP
The only champion I can think that would benefit from those runes anyway, is Dr. Mundo. Maybe Sejuani, but I don't know the HP scaling on her W; maybe Gnar, but I'd say CDR runes or AS runes (depending on how people want to play him) would be better on him.
Scarabking1 votesChampions im thinking it should benefit are shen, trundle, shyvana(especially due to her passive), renekton, tahm kench, gnar, and darius. most junglers NEED or highly pref armor so unless they take the quints im not counting them atm i didn't do the math for the quints. You have to remember that mundo gets pushed around in lane phase so getting rid of armor in his seals probably wouldn't be that great since he risks getting smashed.
PaladinNO1 votesAnd I have to remember there are maps other than The Howling Abyss. xD
I also don't play most of the champions you listed there, or even own all of them: no Shen, Renekton or Trundle in my champion pool. And Gnar, Tahm, Darius and Shyvana are ARAM only's for me.
And I can't jungle worth my life anyway. Tried a few times...in season 3...in AI games. So how to jungle is a concept quite lost on me. :|
Scarabking1 votesArguably the hardest role in the game.
TeCoolMage1 votesno, obviously it's support xD
Well, Jungle has always been an odd duck out of all the roles.
I'd argue it's the easiest right now as jungle camps for the easier junglers (i.e. tanks) is just a matter of getting the highest numbers by either mitigating the camp's damage or by simply having more damage early game, then it becomes a matter of initiating and ganking, which mid laners and top laners do.
I won't argue about harder junglers like Kindred who have to kite their camps as their damage mitigation + damage isn't enough to leave them at a good amount of health early on, they're potentially the hardest early on.
Scarabking2 votesKilling camps is the least of a junglers worries and duties, they aren't playing pve.
ForeverLaxx3 votesIt's too bad that Runes weren't cut from the game entirely before they got too entrenched in the design. Runes have accounted for many more balance concerns than masteries ever have. I've long held the opinion that Riot should have focused on either Runes or Masteries as a way to customize your playstyle, but not both. Unfortunately, it's too late for that now and Riot tends to keep certain rune types around on the off-chance that someone somewhere is going to prefer that rune to the other competing options. Who knows, maybe Riot will do another pass on the runes that offer similar bonuses and actually make each kind stronger in different phases of the game.
TotalJerk2 votesIf I had to guess, I'm thinking Riot doesn't want to buff any runes because that increases the number of viable ones, which means you need to have more, which means a higher barrier to entry.
Pale Pirate2 votesSame for bonus crit damage runes. Due to maths, their effectiveness is halved as soon as you get the premier crit item, infinity edge, and even if it wasn't maths prove that crit chance runes (which are also bad) are always better that crit dmg.
[zombie-brand-facepalm]
Lugg2 votesThere need to be more posts like this. It's great to see the math and reasoning on why certain things are better or worse.
darknuke2 votesThe rune system just needs to be completely revamped, in general. It's the last remnant of an old ass system.
I would bet money that's a season 7 goal.
Nunya Bezwacks2 voteslast I checked the only people who buy them are people with no more champions or don't care either way.
Fox Tango2 votesWe hardly see balancing around runes, I'd like to see someone take a look at this from Riot.[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Aerilus2 votesRunes need a serious rework. Tier 1 are useless, most Tier 2 are also useless, and a few Tier 3 are so imbalanced that some are worthless in comparison to the other Tier 3 runes.
I GANK LANES2 votes95% of runes are
Cloud2731 votesImagine how insane Mundo would be if Riot buffed them. Probably a reason they're in their current state.
Scarabking2 votesYa and then mundo gets totally smashed in lane and goes 0/5 because he has no resists, you'd better play so damn safe on mundo with those seals. Recognizing his cleaver strength is really all it takes to shutdown mundo since you trade with him while he's using it to farm against ppl like renekton