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Riot: "We're having Akali keep her shroud as it makes her very unique."

Forhonor321··92 votes·22,221 views

Also Riot: "Let's remove Irelia's bonus damage to shields and disarm effect that made her a bit unique."

...I want to say I don't understand Riot's balancing anymore but I've been telling myself this for a long time now.

OK, look, Irelia I can understand can be a annoying and shitty champ to play against, I get that, but is really removing some unique aspects to her going to solve the problems with her? Not maybe, Idk, reducing the time it takes for her to get max stacks? A small delay when gaining stacks so she doesn't dash 3 times on your ass while you get stunned? Maybe increasing the stack max as another person suggested? Any other possibilities that you could of think up?

Why is it that when a champ seems problematic, Riot thinks they should remove what made that champ unique to begin with? Look back at Ornn, he had a unique thing for Unstoppable, which Riot then removed. Granted, yes they brought it back but at certain costs. And yet they're willing to have some champs keep things that really should never be allowed, like Akali as previously said with having a perma invisible stealth or camoflauge (whatever the fuck it is idkoc) and dive under towers with it. That is seen as more healthy than a champ who has a niche against shield comps and a unique ult mechanic?

I'm really questioning how Riot determines what unique aspects are worth keeping and what need to go.

Idk, discuss.

141 Comments

Hayaishi242 votes

Disarm and damage to shields don't make Irelia unique. It's the dashing that does.

Seems to me Riot doesn't know that to do with her. Irelia is probably impossible to balance because there is no way of giving her counterplay without said counterplay making her useless.

Warlord Rhinark46 votes

{quoted}

Disarm and damage to shields don't make Irelia unique. It's the dashing that does.

Not with how they seem to be giving everyone a dash nowadays.

Terchio8 votes

She's always had the dash-through-minions dash enhancement, like Renekton, though hers has always been counterable by keeping distance from dying minions, as those are her dash fodder. That recharge method is what made her unique.

She also had a few things retained from her old version: inherent on-hit, sustain potential, stun, and the aformentioned dash reset.

She did lose a more reliable method of sustain and stun, and also her Tenacity, but instead gains bonus attack speed, damage vs. shields, Bladesurge reset on marked targets, a heavy damage reduction duration, AoE on her stun (plus range for potential ranged harass), and a disarm effect on fleeing enemies? At some point on the list, you have to ask yourself, "Why?"

To compare, Warwick basically got the ability to swing around his opponent and the same damage reduction duration with a melee fear tagged on, losing his point-and-click ultimate meanwhile. Irelia's update should have been more moderate like that for a champion who already held the mobility to dictate her lane.

The problem with her kit isn't that it's too powerful, it just has too many frilly tools when she already has the mobility to dictate when she will and won't fight. She didn't need a disarm on ultimate to emphasize how screwed fleeing enemies are, and the shield basher was destined to be a problem. There is no effect on it that makes the enemy realize their own shields are working against them. I had no idea she even had it.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

She's always had the dash-through-minions dash enhancement, like Renekton, though hers has always been counterable by keeping distance from dying minions, as those are her dash fodder. That recharge method is what made her unique.

She also had a few things retained from her old version: inherent on-hit, sustain potential, stun, and the aformentioned dash reset.

She did lose a more reliable method of sustain and stun, and also her Tenacity, but instead gains bonus attack speed, damage vs. shields, Bladesurge reset on marked targets, a heavy damage reduction duration, AoE on her stun (plus range for potential ranged harass), and a disarm effect on fleeing enemies? At some point on the list, you have to ask yourself, "Why?"

To compare, Warwick basically got the ability to swing around his opponent and the same damage reduction duration with a melee fear tagged on, losing his point-and-click ultimate meanwhile. Irelia's update should have been more moderate like that for a champion who already held the mobility to dictate her lane.

The problem with her kit isn't that it's too powerful, it just has too many frilly tools when she already has the mobility to dictate when she will and won't fight. She didn't need a disarm on ultimate to emphasize how screwed fleeing enemies are, and the shield basher was destined to be a problem. There is no effect on it that makes the enemy realize their own shields are working against them. I had no idea she even had it.

Sure, the bonus damage to shields had to go (since it was primarily added to counter the then pretty strong Enchanters that have since then been nerfed pretty harshly), but the Disarm wasn't that bad.

Now her ultimate is nothing more than just AOE damage and a slow.

Terchio2 votes

First off, the shield bash was meant to be a tool. I'd hardly consider it worth emphasizing the Enchanter class for the tool, it didn't have to do with their dominance, else they'd have done a sweeping change to Enchanters (which they did) or introduce anti-shield item effects. You don't redesign one champion to have a frivolous counter against an entire class when they're having an uprising, and I hope to god that wasn't the rationale.

Simply put, it was redesigned that way to make it look like her passive was being phased from one purpose to another. Problem is, it's not a visible source of her power anybody can detect by its nature. It's just bad design, and that's why it's going away.

On the other hand, her ultimate is a bit flimsy after this, but the disarm was never the way to go about it. Her non-ultimate kit has too much natural power, and it is honestly a shame they decided to pick from her ultimate. However, they essentially decided to do with her what they did with Fiora - Add somewhat minimal power and utility on top of a kit that can power its way through multiple enemies without an ultimate. Both champions are designed to optimally kill straggling solo champions with ease, and they do that by having their kill potential regardless of their ultimate being ready.

She needed to lose something. I am not really happy with it coming from the ultimate, though I'm guessing this is why they're doing it that way.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eRmw9V4U,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-15T16:10:23.073+0000)

Not with how they seem to be giving everyone a dash nowadays.

the way she does it is completely different from every other champion.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

the way she does it is completely different from every other champion.

Yasuo's E is pretty similar.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eRmw9V4U,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-17T07:00:08.886+0000)

Yasuo's E is pretty similar.

not really, it's shorter range and it's not his main damage tool. She also resets her q with her stun and ult, they're both dashes but in game they play completely different,

Oleandervine35 votes

I have an EXTREMELY hard time believing this. There are a ton of levers for balance in her kit, it's just that Riot has this AWFUL habit of seeing the one that's flashing warning signs and sounding an alarm, and then switching all the levers AROUND it. Akali is the prime example of this. People are like "Her shroud is fucked up. Remove the true invisibility." Riot responds with nerfs to every other part of her kit, except for the most frustrating part (which isn't even that special in the grand scope). For Irelia, they could do things like reduce the length that she could make her E, tinker with what gives her marks and what doesn't, fiddle with what her passive grants her, or hell, tinker with her damage reduction on W. And that's just some very obvious changes. She's too forgiving at the moment because it's pretty easy to get in and get a kill, so some of her safety needs to be dialed back.

420 grams13 votes

Zoe We don't like how she can use multiple summoner spells in a row in a fight and catch you from a super long range out of vision to follow up with one shot damage that's all tied to one abilty.

Riot: Dont worry, we hear ya. Zoe can no longer pick up teleport from minions :)

Mokuto Bunshi1 votes

{quoted}

I have an EXTREMELY hard time believing this. There are a ton of levers for balance in her kit, it's just that Riot has this AWFUL habit of seeing the one that's flashing warning signs and sounding an alarm, and then switching all the levers AROUND it. Akali is the prime example of this. People are like "Her shroud is fucked up. Remove the true invisibility." Riot responds with nerfs to every other part of her kit, except for the most frustrating part (which isn't even that special in the grand scope). For Irelia, they could do things like reduce the length that she could make her E, tinker with what gives her marks and what doesn't, fiddle with what her passive grants her, or hell, tinker with her damage reduction on W. And that's just some very obvious changes. She's too forgiving at the moment because it's pretty easy to get in and get a kill, so some of her safety needs to be dialed back.

....she has damage redux on W?... Wow. TIL...

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

What did you think her W does? The damage reduction is actually the entire point of this skill. ô.o

Mokuto Bunshi1 votes

{quoted}

What did you think her W does? The damage reduction is actually the entire point of this skill. ô.o

Obscure to make her untargetable and invisible... wouldn't expect DR as well!

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

Ah, it was a misunderstanding then. Read it again, he meant Irelia, she is the one having damage reduction on W, not Akali. ^^

Moody P4 votes

But other champs have already done the "I jump around a lot" thing

Hayaishi23 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eRmw9V4U,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-01-15T17:27:10.724+0000)

But other champs have already done the "I jump around a lot" thing

Well blame Riot.

But that is the reason Irelia is cool to play, not because she disarms (though the mechanic is cool). The focus of her kit is resetting her Q to keep dashing. FOR RIOT as long they can keep that part of the champion intact Irelia is fine.

200220127 votes

Yasuo and Katarina are famous for hypermobitility though???

Irelia was always about never giving up, about willpower. Shield breaking and disarm are a good paraphrasation of that, dashing is not. Like when you merge her story and gameplay she's just a speedy boi Illaoi, but instead of testing you, it's like she's being tested. At this point her, the problem is that she just gets too much of flat anything. How about instead of a flat heal you give her something that scales only off missing HP and that the W damage reduction is smaller but is increased by missing health? It was broken as a Poppy passive but wouldn't be broken on an actual skill with a CD.

LordGeovanni2 votes

If you gonna talk about Irelia's will power which is a character trait and not a game play trait talking about Yasou's and Katarina's hypermobility which they are infamous for isnt really an even comparasion. As its more like talking about how Yasou is famous for being a loner that being hunted down (i cant tell if he is remorseful or not) and Katarina is famous for being a skill blademaster Which has nothing to do with her hypermobility and it can be taken away and she can still be a skilled blade master (which would probably be more healthy and less frustrating to play against.)

LordGeovanni2 votes

The dashing is part of Irela's Identity But it doesnt make her unique at all.

Moonscourge33 votes

Not once have I thought "Oh, yes Irelia deals bonus damage to shields! That really mattered!" whereas shroud is a HUGE and very obvious gameplay mechanic.

Burns Master17 votes

I mean shields feel pretty useless anyways but the shield damage mechanic is still pretty unique. Same with the disarm, even though most people run away from her when she ults. It seems stupid that riot is scared of a simple solution so they desperately beat around the bush instead of addressing simpler spots, destroying what makes champs unique. Honestly, I'd just...

you ready?

LOWER HER DAMAGE

Or tweak her dashes, that too.

LordGeovanni2 votes

Thing is Irelia has super low damage base damage and doesnt scale well cause her abilitys are split because her damage is split 2 spells in ad 2 in ap she needs to hit E and R to reset her Q but those are pretty easily dodged if anyone bothers to dodge them and even when R is thrown out you can just fight inside it or walk out the opening. Only thing i think Irelia pre this slight change needed was the removal or change to her bonus damage to shields (like 30% increased damage on shielded enemies when passive is fully stacked) and a longer Q cooldown for when she doesnt reset it. But her Q base damage is pitiful for an average q ability and its scaling isnt good either especially with that bruisers cant stack ad and stack health just to not get instagibbed.

Vekkna13 votes

You can always count on Riot to single out the most toxic part of a champ and then triple-down on that "unique strength" as the champ's core identity. They'll nerf the champ into the ground to preserve that thing, even if the result is totally unplayable.

Vayne W, Fizz E, Zyra passive, Malz R, Akali W, irelia Q chain-resets, Yasuo W, Tahm ally W, Liss enemy R, and so on.

Sirsir8 votes

We've done the 'keeping the most broken thing on a champ cuz thats what makes them unique' dance before Kassadin

Admit you made a mistake and move on.

{quoted}

Seems to me Riot doesn't know that to do with her. Irelia is probably impossible to balance because there is no way of giving her counterplay without said counterplay making her useless.

We need more anti-mobility in this game. More poppy Ws and grounding spells.

LeftyRaydy3 votes

Grounding is a terrible mechanic that just feels terrible to go against. I love how with newer/reworked champions they added ways to give you no dashes or you cannot use summoner spells to escape. melee champs that need to get to their targets are already easily abused in this sense. Poppy W is perfectly fine though as she has to be right on top of you, but Cassio Miasma is some BS that she can fire and forget about it. Singed isnt as bad either since its much smaller, but I mainly have a problem with Cassio's ability.

Sirsir1 votes

{quoted}

Grounding is a terrible mechanic that just feels terrible to go against. I love how with newer/reworked champions they added ways to give you no dashes or you cannot use summoner spells to escape. melee champs that need to get to their targets are already easily abused in this sense. Poppy W is perfectly fine though as she has to be right on top of you, but Cassio Miasma is some BS that she can fire and forget about it. Singed isnt as bad either since its much smaller, but I mainly have a problem with Cassio's ability.

I'm not saying every version we have is great, when you can cover half the lane and there are slows attached then yeah it feels bad. I don't think grounding is the problem, but the fact that all of its applications are accompanied by massive slows. Its basically a 3-4 second root...

LeftyRaydy3 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying every version we have is great, when you can cover half the lane and there are slows attached then yeah it feels bad. I don't think grounding is the problem, but the fact that all of its applications are accompanied by massive slows. Its basically a 3-4 second root...

I can 100% agree with you on that. The slow is just terrible on a grounding ability.

Skorch6 votes

I despised the fact Irelia had disarm and shieldbreak.

Why?

Not because i thought they made her stronger, but because i felt like they tacked those on because of what was strong at the time. ADCs and Enchanters are strong? Let's give our next release champion a disarm and shieldbreak despite neither of these existing prior to this champion.

That is the most piss-poor way to balance possible. I'm happy they removed that awful example.

Abibyama II4 votes

I thought people hated riot for making champions unique?

sobi9996 votes

As unique as Yasuo and Zoe, then yes. There is a fine boundary that must not be crossed with uniqueness. If some still hate it, then that doesn't mean the majority.

VolatileAkali7 votes

"We hate how unique Akali currently is" - The Akali Community

No joke, this fucking balance and design team, can't create and then balance a champion at all.

SithesisLord5 votes

You can blame CertainlyT for creating yet another abomination of game design and yet again disguising his incompetence as creativity.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I hardly think anyone really asociates the anti shield mechanic with Irelia, most people probably aren't even aware of it at all, and she didn't have it befor the rework. It's in no way iconic for her nor what really makes her unique or a reason for people to pick her up. The disarm on the ult also is not really something well asociated with her, but i agree that it gives her a more unique strength as a fighter that does well into AA-based teams, though that also is jax's niche so still nothing that **really **makes her unique.

I really doubt that anyone will play her after this change and then go 'man, this just doesn't feel like Irelia anymore'...

As for Akali, yea, something needs to change. The shroud it's self is fine and certainly icnonic, but the 'true stealth' thing doesn't feel neccesary, and the paired with the rest of her low counterplay kit it can get very frustraiting to face. Maybe they should swap it with her ult, give her a dash+damage(maybe a quick dash in a line and then a delayed damage in that line) in her basekit and make the smokescreen a highish CD ult so disengageing and waiting it out actually means something.

TheLegendaddy3 votes

on the topic of unique, remember when draven had a bleed and him and darius really felt like brothers? riot monkey dev team

Raiyza11 votes

In Riot's defense, that bleed was absolutely broken.

TheLegendaddy2 votes

was it tho? or do they just suck at math? think of all the other champs with a "bleed" type mechanic that feel just fine. If his bleed amps up the longer he's attacking you, especially in this meta as it is right now....it'd feel right at home.

Raiyza8 votes

It was extremely broken. I don't remember the scaling, but it added a good 10-20 extra damage on top of the bonus damage Spinning Axe already gave him. His level 1 and 2 were stupid broken.

Flawless Fetus3 votes

Mehhhhh. I think what they should have said was unique and core to their kit. If you pick irelia, it isn't to deal bonus damage to shields was passive is fully charged. Lol. You pick her for the dashing and maybe the disarm (which also got removed). The shroud is pretty core to Akali. Lol.

LordGeovanni3 votes

That bonus damage to shields was broken and over tuned even if they wanted to keep it I agree with the disarm though.

Jabberwöcky3 votes

Next time on DragonBallRiot- Will Riot remove Nocturnes darkness on his ult? FIND OUT NEXT TIME!

Hypèr2 votes

{quoted}

Next time on DragonBallRiot- Will Riot remove Nocturnes darkness on his ult? FIND OUT NEXT TIME!

I hope not, but 6 seconds is a long time...as a Nocturne player I love it, but it really is too long. 4 seconds wasn't long enough and 6 is too long, so lets try 5 and try getting him to an actually balanced spot.

Bârd2 votes

Irelia's bonus damage to shield is about as core to her identity as Ekko's bonus on hit damage to low HP champions, in that I'm pretty sure about half of players didn't realize they did those things and don't particularly care.

KoKoboto2 votes

Why was AD Malzahar removed as a playstyle completely for his rework? It's one of the things that made him unique, being one of the few minion users in the game.

Eranell2 votes

A very much overlooked aspect of Irelia's lane dominance in my oppinion is, that her Q also has a heal that procs from everything and benefits from life steal (mainly dorans blade, if you dont go for corruping potion from the beginning). As soon as you have trinity force your Q heals for more than it costs mana.

Duellists/Bruisers shouldn't be able to stay in lane indefinitely just through their kit. Darius and Fiora at least have to hit the enemy champion to proc their heal. If you cant out-duel Irelia from 100-0 half way into the laning phase she heals faster than you can say f*ck.

Same goes for Akali. There is no reason for her Q to have a heal especially since she uses energy as a resource. If you really want an assassin to have some heal do it in the way Riot did it with Talon and Kha'Zix. Moderate cooldown, makes you vulnerable to enemy poke, actually costs you ressources and doesn't scale with their prefered stat whatsoever but instead solely with champion level/ability rank.

Having Gunblade as rushed core item on Akali gives her an absurd amount of heals for an assassin, making poke against her almost meaningless. Not to mention that the heal on her Q scales with its PREMITIGATION damage. I really think Riot underestimates the power of heals.

Serika Zero2 votes

Becauseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Its subjective. What you think make Irelia/Akali/others unique is not necessarily the same thing I think makes them unique. Same argument was done with: the champion doesn't fit its lore anymore. Or, this champion doesn't fit its "identity" anymore.

And so on. They are bullshit arguments, because its highly subjective. Vague language like this allows them do to whatever changes they want to do, which giving an actual argument, but, have some of the players defend them. And its not just a riot problem, this problem is wide spread in games, politics, schools, etc. As language keeps "losing" its power (as an example, on facebook, you can set your gender/sex to charmander if you want to RAWR hahahaha)

Vague language is often seductive. For this is the reason it creates some sort of attraction towards itself, as, everyone can, what's the word, oh right, project, their own reality on it and have it mean what they want it to mean.

Examples: for some, Diana is an assassin, a vengeful girl wanting to destroy that which caused her suffering. For others, she's a fighter, a bruiser that stays in fights and constantly attacks the enemy because she has anger issues (among other issues). For others she's just a bullshit unfair character that kills them or its useless. etc.

Bottom line is: instead of giving real arguments. Riot will resort to "argue" about unique, identity and fantasy of playing xxx champion instead of giving you the reason they are doing that change. And they do that to well, lower the disagreement in the community with their own changes. Its a manipulation tactic as old as humanity itself. But still works ofc.

PS: there's few such things as "facts". Generally because in order to interpret those "Facts" you need a framework of interpretation (Generally called context). Riot skips the "context" and just give you a vague "fact" resulting in their change ----> their change was entirely subjective and had nothing to do with the reason they gave.

Nevrankroaton2 votes

Aren't you the guys that say kit are overloaded and stuff?

Isn't that a good thing if you take what the board always ask?

TotalJerk2 votes

The shields were unnecessary bullshit shoehorned into her kit to give her a hamfisted direct counter to something everyone was complaining about at the time: shields. It really needs to go because it's blatantly just a "if you rely on this, then I win" mechanic.

MorgManBasher2 votes

If you can't understand just how overloaded irelia's kit is where she doesn't need all this extra fat, I don't know what to tell you.

Honestly some things should be stripped from akali's kit as well.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Especially mechanics that aren't meaningful but bring a lot of power.

I feel the disarming mechanic of Irelia's ult to be difficult to read with all the particles happening with her ult in the moment. I just don't think it adds much to her kit, thematically, but it's a lot of extraneous power. That's an easy decision to clip imo.

I'm not sure what I think the analogous aspects of Akali's kit are. That may be why they are slower on her. Gotta remember that Riot's priorities aren't just about balance; thematic consistency is also a part of the design philosophy, and Akali's shroud is a huge part of her identity. Irelia's disarm... not so much.

deadlychuck1 votes

Especially mechanics that aren't meaningful but bring a lot of power.

Looks at Ekko W... yeah they've mad it habit of doing exactly this and it's not even something new at this point.

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