Boards›Gameplay

[Insight] @RiotRepertoir, Meddler; Poppy W

Omnipherious·11/30/2015, 3:53:02 AM·5 votes·1,343 views

There are plenty of discussions regarding the dash blocking as is and I'm sure there will be more once it hits live.

The questions I have are in regard to Poppy's new W is the passive AR/MR component.

> Steadfast Presence Passive: Poppy's total Armor and Magic Resistance are increased by 12%, doubled to 24% while below 40% of her max. health. ...

As I understand, the goal of this ability is to retain the previous feeling of "the lower her HP, the tankier she is" without being as obnoxious as Valiant Fighter. I'd say it accomplishes that to an extent, and is definitely much clearer at the very least since an opponent can actually click on Poppy and see the Steadfast Presence passive being doubled as a buff on the status bar.

However, I am very curious why this route was chosen; I look at this ability, and I'm fondly reminded of a Riot phrase I haven't seen in a while, "power without gameplay".

Primary Question - Why did you choose to do it this way? I ask this because it seems like you get a lot for free, and by free I mean the player doesn't have to consciously do anything.

Consider this: Scenario: Poppy is taking hits, so she gets tankier for free once she has absorbed 60% of her hp's worth of damage.

No activation required, it just happens automatically. Activates regardless of whether allies are near or not. Tanky even if she doesn't build AR/MR, since passive effect is for Total AR/MR instead of bonus only.

So if you would be so kind, I would like some insight as to why you have all chosen the approach above.

Context of the answers I would like are:

1) Auto-activation Why automatic instead of only when dash-block is active? Is it due to dash-block duration? Simplification?

2) Allied Presence Why does Poppy get the stats regardless of her circumstances? She has been changed to primarily fulfill a Tank role, which is meant to be a protector class. So why does she get the bonus even if you catch her out solo? How come it wasn't, "While near allied champions and at 40% max. hp or below, passive bonus is doubled"?

3) Total AR/MR instead of Bonus Why total instead of bonus? To ensure she has tanky stats regardless of if she builds some or not? Garen had this on his W once upon a time (Patch 1.0.0.145) and Total instead of Bonus was deemed to be too much free power for doing nothing so it got changed (Patch 3.03).

3.1 - What makes Poppy a better fit for this passive ability than Garen? Is it simply a numbers thing where Garen got 20% outright and Poppy has less than that most of the time and slightly more only while low? If yes, why wasn't this applied to Garen when the problem arose; if no, please explain.

3.2 - Following up on 3.1, is Poppy allowed to have this because she is a 'more complex, non-beginner champion' while Garen must retain the 'farm to get stronger/tougher' version because it teaches/encourages new players to last-hit?

4) Why not make more use of Poppy's new Passive - Iron Ambassador? Instead of just giving Poppy free stats when low, why not encourage a gameplay pattern with Iron Ambassador?

For example: "While Poppy is at 40% of her max. hp or lower, cooldown of Iron Ambassador recharges 50% faster."

This would allow Poppy to keep some distance with frequent ranged attacks as well as duck in and out of the fight to tank with more frequent shields. All of this only accomplished via gameplay that is accessible to both Poppy and her opponents, since they can deny her shield.

5) What happened to clean numbers? Why 12% and 24% instead of 10% and 20%?

I mean... really why? Matches Rank 1 Malphite W at all times and only 1% less than Rank 4 Malphite W when activated... but for BOTH resistance stats.

I would've posted this in the Dev Corner but that doesn't seem possible, so any insight into these things would be appreciated, thanks.

16 Comments

Raidarc11/30/2015, 5:02:21 AM3 votes

Is it just me or are you trying to get it nerfed?

As a Poppy main I'm tired of seeing her near the bottom of used champions.

I will say this though, I think her W's passive should scale off the rank of the ability. This allows a different path to follow based on the state of the game. Instead of going full damage abilities in Q and E only putting a single point into W until you max everything else.

Right now there is only one way to build her abilities. Q into E into W, Q having top priority, E having second after one point in W and R when you hit the required level to use it.

Whereas with champions like Riven or Jax they have the option of leveling a defensive skill second if they are in a rough lane. Let's face it, as it stands, nobody uses W for the damage it does. This is a purely mobility/anti-mobility skill that gives you a static passive % of armor and magic resistance that doesn't change upon leveling it up. I haven't played the PBE yet but I can only assume that it does decrease the CD of the ability but that still doesn't mean anyone will level it second.

Fadedpf11/30/2015, 4:58:32 AM2 votes

She has hard to land CC. Close range Q. Conditional W and E. And a skillshot ult. I think it will be fine, if not reduce it to 10 and 20% like you said. But she doesnt have massive aoe CC like an amumu or malph she is a peel based tank.

MunchCrunchLunch11/30/2015, 6:30:34 AM2 votes

imo her W is underpowered. 12%. and 24% under 40% health. so basically if you have 100 armor you get an extra 12-24. how much useful is that.

Valderis Vandala11/30/2015, 8:00:49 AM2 votes
  1. Why would you want clean numbers? What is the point of clean numbers? Wouldn't you rather have balanced numbers? Maybe 10% and 20% weren't good enough.
Raidarc11/30/2015, 8:16:11 PM2 votes

GAREN PASSIVE: Garen permanently gains 0.25 bonus armor and magic resistance every time he kills an enemy, up to a maximum of 30 bonus resistances. ACTIVE: Garen reduces incoming damage by 30% for a few seconds.

POPPY PASSIVE: Poppy gains X Armor and X Magic Resist (12% of Armor and Magic Resist). This bonus is doubled if Poppy is below 40% Health. ACTIVE: For the next 2.5 seconds, Poppy gains 27/29/31/33/35% Movement Speed. While Steadfast Presence is active, she stops enemy dashes in an area around her, dealing 70/110/150/190/230 (+.7 AP) magic damage."

I'm not seeing the problem here. Garen gets flat resistances and an active, which adds onto current resistanc perecentages, triggered whenever he wants to. For instance, as he dives into the enemy team at full health. Garen's passive is also usable while stunned if I remember correctly.

Poppy's mitigation lasts longer once she is below 40% health but Garen's 30% damage mitigation added on top of his current resistances is stronger when used properly, like eating a full combo from Zed.

Why didn't Garen get Poppy's ability passive? Why didn't Poppy get Garen's ability passive? Oh it might be because they want to think of UNIQUE champions. Now don't get me wrong, it would work on Garen. That being said, when you've got as many champions out are Riot does, it's hard to come up with unique abilities for every single champion. It's more than like the case that this idea wasn't though of when the Garen rework was being done, and the old Garen had a similar ability, why change it completely when that wasn't what was wrong with him.

Also, the main thing that enabled them to think of this ability passive for POPPY because it is like her old kit. She was harder to kill the lower she got and Riot wanted to keep that feel to it. Flat numbers were part of her old passive and look how that went. They want to make it strong but not overbearingly so. I'm sure they tried 10%/20% and 15%/30% and many more numbers until they thought it felt right.

Can't just be like, oh, well it looks pretty in our coding, let's leave it that way. It's balanaced.

GrReaper9611/30/2015, 5:30:09 AM1 votes

I think it should be moved to her ulti as a passive.

Hemoparty11/30/2015, 6:06:06 AM1 votes

It's probably on there for free because, technically, a dash blocking active is "only" useful if anyone on the enemy team has a dash. Kind of like how Wind Wall is "only" useful if anyone on the enemy team has projectiles worth blocking, and it ended up being legitimately make or break on his usefulness.

Sightless6611/30/2015, 11:44:36 PM1 votes

Why automatic instead of only when dash-block is active? Is it due to dash-block duration? Simplification?

The dash-blocking is the main focus of the skill. It's meant to be the main thing you make decisions about using the skill with. Introducing a competitor mechanic to something that is already unique isn't necessary. On top of that, you'd have to mess with the tankiness numbers VERY heavily in order to make it worthwhile with that short of a duration, and that just increases the threat of it overshadowing the unique mechanic.

Aside from that, it's just thematic. Poppy gets tankier when she's low. It's a constant thing. People like that.

  1. Allied Presence. Why does Poppy get the stats regardless of her circumstances? She has been changed to primarily fulfill a Tank role, which is meant to be a protector class.

First, just labeling tanks as a "protector class" is a major overgeneralization. Tanks can exist without being protectors.

Second, why link it to ally presence? What does that accomplish? The only thing this would do is depriving her of a mechanic for the laning phase while still giving practically unconditional access later in the game. Why would we want to remove access to this in the laning phase? What gameplay does that add?

I don't see any advantage unless not having the mechanic be active during the early game is considered an advantage.

Why total instead of bonus?

So that this aspect of her kit will be present regardless of the point of the game. If it only worked off of bonus resistances, the mechanic could easily be non-existent until Poppy's second or third completed item. For something as basic as "gets tankier when low", there isn't any need to so strongly link it to item-based stats instead of just making it inherent.

The comparison to Garen doesn't work for me because the active of his W wasn't dependent on the numbers given by the passive portion. His flat damage reduction always worked no matter how much bonus resistances he was or wasn't getting. Poppy's "tanky when low" passive is dependent on the resistances granted by her W, so the entire "tanky when low" mechanic just wouldn't work up until the point where Poppy bought bonus resistances.

Again, all I see out of this is just depriving her of the mechanic early in the game, and I still don't see why we would do that.

Why not make more use of Poppy's new Passive - Iron Ambassador? ......This would allow Poppy to keep some distance with frequent ranged attacks as well as duck in and out of the fight to tank with more frequent shield

You've actually answered your own question there. She's not mean to be a pokey in-and-out kind of tank. That's not how she was designed, it's not what Riot wants out of her kit and it's not what players associate with Poppy. All-in describes Poppy, not ducking in and out. It creates gameplay, but the gameplay is actively opposed to her theme and to how players want to play her.