Twisted Fate vs. Assassins: Buffs needed?

Enkidusmurf·3/17/2015, 5:55:17 PM·2 votes·2,492 views

TL;DR: First, how does Twisted Fate typically fare against assassins, assuming competent players on both sides? Second, would it be balanced to add bonus range to TF's W-empowered AA's, to help him compete in these match-ups?

EDIT: I'm not trying to play TF as an assassin. I'm just asking if he's still a viable pick as long as assassins are popular, and if it would be good to buff his range to help him farm more safely against them. Sorry if I was not clear.

So, I'm kind of new to Twisted Fate, and I'm interested to know how he fares in the assassin meta. My inclination would be to say that he's not a good pick into high mobility burst champs, but I've also heard some people say that he's strong against them (presumably because of his stun).

My limited experience is that he gets countered, hard. But this is coming from someone new to midlane, and new to TF. As in, I played him in ARAM several times and then took him mid in a blind pick normals game, where I was matched against a LeBlanc. I could do some okay long-range poke with my Q, but my cards were completely useless, because they require getting within his AA range (525), while LeBlanc's shortest range ability is 600.

Here's my buff idea, and I'd love your feedback. Since TF is low mobility and has relatively short range on his strongest damage ability, would it be reasonable and balanced to give him a range extension on his W-empowered AA's? If so, how much range? Could he go up to Cait's range (650) without putting him out of balance in other match-ups or other lanes? 750? Let me know what you think.

14 Comments

Serevas3/17/2015, 7:41:11 PM3 votes

Tf is like the teleporting jungler. He's supposed to hang out, survive as best as he can against whoever he is against, and look for plays in other lanes as well as the jungle.

He's actually surprisingly difficult to play in all honesty. So basically survive, do a decent job farming, and help your other lanes with teleports after 6 whenever you can see a kill. Don't forget to get your yellow card before you teleport.

Fadedpf3/17/2015, 5:56:50 PM2 votes

I saw a TF get destroyed by a LB double distortion and Q. He needs some help.

67chrome3/17/2015, 7:40:44 PM2 votes

TL;DR: First, how does Twisted Fate typically fare against assassins, assuming competent players on both sides?

In my yoloqueue days with Vayne, I looked forward to facing a TF mid more than most other champions, as it was a near guaranteed win.

I'm not sure that says much, what with yoloqueue being yoloqueue, and TF is admitadly rather hard to master. Most TF's I saw in yoloqueue made him feel like one of the worst champions in the game, where at the pro level he was 100% ban. Not even 100% pick/ban, just 100% banned due to being such a god compared to the other AP mids in seasons 1 and especially 2.

Second, would it be balanced to add bonus range to TF's W-empowered AA's, to help him compete in these match-ups?

More range on TF's autos would likely turn him into a marksman.

TF's AP ratios and QWER burst are among the lowest in the game, and where the single lowest of any AP mid at a given point. A solid number of marksman actually have better AP scaling, leaving the impressive range TF has with Wild Cards vs. sub Vayne/Graves AA range as the main reason he goes AP.

Most of TF's damage as-is comes from Lich Bane, which essentially turns everyone into an AP champion.

So, I'm kind of new to Twisted Fate, and I'm interested to know how he fares in the assassin meta. My inclination would be to say that he's not a good pick into high mobility burst champs, but I've also heard some people say that he's strong against them (presumably because of his stun).

Well - TF used to have the single highest win rate of any champ in ranked 5x5 from bronze to diamond. He maintained that in the massive upswing of the assassin meta becoming popular, so I'm assuming his monstrous utility and safe, long-range wave-clear was enough to give him considerable presence.

And then Riot was like, we're kind of tiered of this guy being 100% ban rate in competitive matches from seasons 1 and 2, and looking like he'll be that way in season 3, then they nerffed him pretty hard and he's never really made a full recovery. His pro play hasn't really been that impressive since.

If you want to look for inspiration with TF, you might want to search youtube for some season 2 TF matches. There's a lot of god-tier examples of what he can do there. Also - if you're trying to learn TF, he's one of the hardest champions in the game to master IMO. Playing him well seems to be a lot about the smarter rather than harder mindset, as previously mentioned his QWER is one of the lowest-damaging rotations in the game (for an AP carry), so you can't often rely on overpowering your foes with TF even with a significant lead. Using TF's strengths well also rely fairly heavily on teamwork and team plays, limiting the lone-wolf, 1 man vs. the world stuff you can do with TF compared to someone like, say, Riven.

My limited experience is that he gets countered, hard. But this is coming from someone new to midlane, and new to TF. As in, I played him in ARAM several times and then took him mid in a blind pick normals game, where I was matched against a LeBlanc. I could do some okay long-range poke with my Q, but my cards were completely useless, because they require getting within his AA range (525), while LeBlanc's shortest range ability is 600.

LeBlanc's lanning phase (vs. anything squishy that can't really rush MR) is among the strongest in the game.

Her late-game pressence falls off a cliff though, where a typical mage can shave off ~50% of an enemy team's collective health with a solid QWER AOE burst or a solid chunk of pre-fight poke, where a typical marksman can take out ~50% of a collective team's health with auto-attacks on solid positioning, where a typical assassin can take out ~50% of an enemy team's collective health with re-sets, potent autos, and mild AoE, and where a typical support or tank can lock out ~50% of an enemy team long enough to take out the other 50%: LeBlanc is pretty much hard-capped at taking out 20% of an enemy team's collective health.

As long as you can survive against LeBlanc you've pretty much won the lanning phase vs. her, so getting MR and lots of healing pots isn't a bad idea in that match-up, even if it sets you behind a bit. With solid gold-card drawing capabilities and well-timmed ults, you can bring a ton of power to your team as TF even without dealing damage.

But anyways - my point here is loosing lane to LeBlanc doesn't mean much in terms of balance. LeBlanc's power is so crammed into a strong early game and solid lanning phase, that spiking during her early game vs. anyeone doesn't tell us much. That's, like, 99% of what she does.

Here's my buff idea, and I'd love your feedback. Since TF is low mobility and has relatively short range on his strongest damage ability, would it be reasonable and balanced to give him a range extension on his W-empowered AA's?

TF can teleport halfway across the map, which isn't exactly low mobility. Even in the reflexive sense that's pretty solid, as he can easily warp between different lanes. Also - TF's Wild Cards is his most damaging ability, and it's range is long enough Baron's AA range actually had to get buffed so TF couldn't cheese him to death. TF's effective range is pretty massive with Wild Cards.

If so, how much range? Could he go up to Cait's range (650) without putting him out of balance in other match-ups or other lanes? 750? Let me know what you think.

TF's gold card is one of the poster children for why CDR is capped at 40%, with a mild increase to the CDR cap TF could easily reach perma-stun capabilities, and his relatively short AA range is the only thing that's really allowing his point-click CC to be played around without being oppressive and broken. If you look at most other devistating point-click CC, they also tend to have lacking range. Rammus's taunt, Xin's Knockup, Alistar's Headbutt, Fiddlestick's fear. Even point-click CC ultimates like Annie's teddy bear and Malzahar's blarf are in a fairly med/short range catagory.

The only way TF could really get a range boost on the point-click CC capability of pick a card is if that skill went the same direction of most skills within the 700~1500 range: being a skillshot, which is mostly the Veigar stun-wall treatment.

Considering the main secondary advantage of skillshots is the capacity to hit targets in brush/fog of war/stealth, and TF's ult reveals everything everywhere so all point-click abilities can hit targets that were in brush/fog of war/stealth, not really seeing that as a solid buff direction.

Also - as previously mentioned, ramping up the AA range of TF, if only for a single skill, could quickly turn him into an AD champion over an AP champion.

CrownPuff3/18/2015, 2:06:35 PM2 votes

Max Q, get free e trades off, go morello if an easy lane or athenes if you need mr against bursty assassins. Port bot at 6, collect freelo. Most people saying tf is a weak pick are low elo. TF is a strong pick and gets stronger the higher up you move in the ladder. If you look at win rates on http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ and sort by tier, you'll see that TF is a terrible pick in bronze, a pretty bad pick in silver but ok, an above average pick in gold, a great pick in plat, and a top 10 win rate pick in diamond. There are a ton of people that say tf is a weak champion. It's perhaps the most obvious tell that someone is in low elo when they believe tf is bad.

Axests3/17/2015, 5:57:39 PM1 votes

tf vs zed zed ults tf stuns neither wins

tf vs adcs tf ults adc runs tf stuns tf wins

3tyson3/17/2015, 6:09:13 PM1 votes

Tf is not suposed to be an assassin like zed... hes suposed to play his lane safe and get fed when other lanes make a mistake thats where his real power is

he has an ultimatw wich screams this... why would you work against this by trying to compete with zed..?

its like picking adc teemo and complaining your shrooms do no dmg.... its cus your playing it wrong