If not % Health True Damage, then what?

Xeynid·2/27/2016, 5:27:58 AM·8 votes·734 views

A lot of people complain about % health true damage being unfair and having no counterplay. Which is only about half right. While, yes, there is no way to directly itemize against % Health true damage, there doesn't necessarily need to be. That kind of damage exists to serve a very specific purpose to balance out a champion's kit in multiple situations, and does a good job at it.

Vayne's true damage is the one that sees a lot less publicity due to her not really being in the meta right now, but whenever Vayne is popular, it's immediately touted as proof of her imbalance. The thing about Vayne's true damage is that it only happens on every third auto attack from vayne and deals 12% of her target's max health. But how much damage is that, really?

Against a champion with 6000 health, which is a rather incredible amount to have, Vayne does 720 true damage. This sounds like a lot, but that's only every third auto. On average, Silver Bolts adds 240 damage to each auto attack. When your auto attacks are all critting for 700-1000 damage each, even 100 armor isn't enough to make silver bolts half of Vayne's damage output. But let's assume the tank that Vayne is trying to kill has 200 armor. Each auto will deal 233 physical damage (assuming ~700 damage before mitigation) and 240 true damage, which means it will take 12 auto attacks for vayne to kill her target, which would realistically take 8 or 9 seconds of uninterrupted auto attacks to actually pull off.

"Why should vayne be able to kill a full tank in 8 or 9 seconds even with those ridiculous tank stats?" You may ask. Well... why shouldn't she. Vayne's auto attack range is shorter than a vast number of CC abilities, Vayne is unable to switch targets in between 3-attack intervals due to the way silver bolts works without losing damage, and 8 or 9 seconds to kill your target is an eternity in the middle of a full-blown fight. Vayne has to put herself in a massive amount of risk to do that damage, and the player needs an incredible amount of skill to survive that situation, so why shouldn't they be able to kill any tank if they can pull that off?

Something similar is true for Fiora. With a good amount of AD, her vitals-strikes can do ~15% of her target's max health in true damage, meaning it takes 14 vitals strikes to kill her target. But, again, there's no reason why she SHOULDN'T be allowed to kill her target if she hits their vitals 14 times without them healing or getting a shield.

Fiora and Vayne are the only instances, right now, of % health true damage. They both have their true damage tied to a little minigame that encourages active involvement in a team fight, and that's not a coincidence. Both of those champions are designed to have little "mini-games" that guarantee that they can kill their targets (as they are assassins after all) regardless of what their target may be should they consistently play the mini-game well.

Which is why the damage kind of has to be % health true damage. If the damage was either physical or magical, then you run into a balancing nightmare. If the damage is too high, then Fiora or Vayne have way too easy of a time just popping squishy champions, changing them from Duelist-carries into pure assassins. If the numbers are too low, then the mini-games begin to be useless against tankier opponents; if you're trying to kill someone with enough resistances, it becomes pointless to bother wasting your time focusing on managing the extra damage in your kit because you're not actually gaining much for doing so; instead, you're just killing time until an opportunity to focus a squishy opens up. Which is the key point; Fiora and Vayne aren't about insta-popping squishies (compare their burst to any real assassin's if you don't believe me), they're about being able to win any 1v1 fight with proper management of their resources so that, with good play within a teamfight, they can take out the entire enemy team one by one, which is the entire point of an AD carry.

"Why do Fiora and Vayne need % health true damage if no other AD Carries do?"

Because other AD carries have more range. The only AD carries that don't have significantly more poke-ability, and therefore ability to consistently deal meaningful damage to the enemy team without needing % health true damage, are Quinn, who is more commonly seen as a pick for a mid-lane roaming assassin rather than as a traditional AD carry (and even Quinn is designed to be far more focused on Squishy-popping than Vayne or Fiora) and Graves, who is a top-lane and jungle pick who builds like a bruiser and acts like one, too, rather than being a traditional AD carry.

Once you make a champion have a small amount of range, the entire dynamic of how they are able to win a team fight changes. If a champion has enough range to sit in relative safety outside of a team fight like Tristana or Jinx or Kog'Maw, the rest of the team can make Tanks a non-issue. If your team can CC the enemy frontliners enough that you can stay out of their range, then you don't need to be able to kill the tanks nearly as efficiently or quickly; you have all the time in the world to just wail on them. Fiora and Vayne can't do that; you can't keep Malphite or Darius away from Vayne without also keeping your damage dealer away from the enemy team, and the same goes for Fiora.

But % health true damage also serves another purpose when properly tied to a mini-game-like mechanic; it prevents champions from turning into a ball of stats. Since so much of Fiora's damage relies on hitting your vitals, she's never beating you entirely because she had more stats than you; the fact that her main damage source is telegraphed means it is something both you and her can play around. Unlike champions like Jax or Irelia, where the counterplay to their kits is "Don't fight them if you can't beat them," champions with huge bursts of telegraphed damage have additional counterplay options. Since Vayne can't switch targets in the middle of building up for her silver bolts, you can try to manage your positioning such that she either has to switch targets or has to dive into your team to continue chasing her original one. Since Fiora's ability to hit vitals is heavily tied to her ultimate, you can force her to stay inside of your team where you can destroy her with your own damage and CC. Both Vayne and Fiora have ways of playing around your attempts to play around them, such as Tumble, Vayne's Passive, Lunge, and Riposte, but that just means that both you and the champion with true damage have some kind of input as to whether or not they can kill you.

Now, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm NOT saying that Fiora and Vayne are always balanced. Fiora looks a little on the strong side (a lot on the strong side) and her passive may need more of its damage shifted into the scaling rather than baseline damage; however, there is a common conception that just because one specific part of their damage output can't be specifically itemized against, that specific part of their damage output is, inherently, "Broken" and needs to be removed, which just isn't true.

16 Comments

Nanuk Pihoqahiak2/27/2016, 5:35:28 AM5 votes

I laugh when people complain about Vayne's true damage. They complain that their squishy got blown up by it when it's not even mathematically possible. Without even applying napkin math, Vayne can likely kill another ADC lategame in 3-5 autos. This means she only procced Silver Bolts once. Assuming they had an even 2,000 health, that's only 240 true damage, which is far weaker than her just having a level 5 ability in its place.

The only people that -should- complain are tanks, but she's designed to bust them. 'Should she do this when Kog'maw does as well?' is another argument entirely.

Whut Thuh 2/27/2016, 5:39:27 AM2 votes

the problem that people complain about fiora especially is that lets say your in lane with fiora as like a nautilus and neither of you are very good so you both brought tp. you both decided to back you and you come back with a bamis cinder and 2 pots and she comes back with a tiamat. im no faker or league announcer of riot game designer but getting one vital q off and all of a sudden im on 4/5 health seems dumb. and if they have marginally more gold than you if the vital happens to be towards their side you cant even cs without getting out traded with a standard face roll combo

SpookyNeedle2/27/2016, 6:07:52 AM2 votes

As a Fiora main, I am so glad to see such a fantastic post. +1 Goodjob man!

TheOvermind2/27/2016, 6:14:22 AM1 votes

Well when you look at velkoz (the equivalent of vayne of mages) he he only does 215 flat true dmg every Third ability (nowhere near as frequent as auto attacks) that seems super underwhelming . Now I dunno why if vayne overturned or what but velkoz should either get ap scaling on his passive or make it %max hp as well.

Nyhver2/27/2016, 6:29:54 AM1 votes

The people that flock to the idea that "% true health damage is inherently bad game design or overpowered" like to do so when Vayne is FOTM. When neither ideas are true, yet people still persist. Sure, they can be overtuned, they haven't seemed to be. People that just cling to absolute statements about game design and balance without properly explaining things irks me.

Jeddy0172/27/2016, 6:38:25 AM1 votes

Fiora and Vayne are the only instances, right now, of % health true damage.

Uh,this is incorrect.Don't forget that Garen has this as well.It was added when the Juggernaut update happened.Though,it is limited to one target at a time.

The Voids Call2/27/2016, 8:22:22 AM1 votes

Personally i think % HP true damage is fine, but i don't think that it should ever scale with a stat like AD, as in the case of Fiora atm.

When you start adding scaling % HP true damage, then you start having literally no options against it. As a Fiora builds AD, she decreases the total time to kill on a target, and there is literally no way for a champion to stifle that. MATHS__ Setting a base time to kill, like on vayne, is fine. Attack speed has a cap, and another glass cannon champion could out DPS her. At 2.5 attack speed, vayne will kill you in < 10 seconds no matter what, even if she had 0 AD. It will take 8.333 procs (rounded down to 8) of true silver bolts to kill at max rank, this means it will take 24 auto attacks, and at 2.5 attacks per second, that's a little less than 10 seconds.

Fiora on the other hand, AD has no cap, and therefore can reduce her minimum time to kill. Meaning in theory given all AD/level runes. At level 18, fiora, without any champion buffs but the AD mastery and dragon buff and baron buff, could have up to 614 bonus AD. Which would scale to 30.6 % max HP true damage. If you added Janna shield (with max AP) and Taric ult, you could increase that to a total of 922.2 bonus AD, for a grand total of 44.5 % max HP true damage. Edit: That calculation was done with 6% dragon buff, at 12% (5 stacks) it's 652 bonus AD (32.3%) and 974 bonus AD (46.8%) respectively.

Now obviously this is a theoretical situation, and let's be honest, with that AD she wouldn't need the true damage to kill you anyway.

The key here though, is the fact that she almost has no realistic cap on how much she can decrease her time to kill through true damage alone. If she needs to kill you faster, AD will do that, and there is no stat or option which prevents that.

Done W/ MATHS Personally i'd like to see them remove the MS zone from the ult, but make the passive MS scale by level, and shift her % HP true damage (on all vitals) to her ult ranks but remove the scaling. Say... 4/8/12 or 5/10/15. For fiora it'd be the current equivalent to having between 200 and 266 bonus AD at max rank.

This would mean she'd still have her power of tank killing if she wanted to build full tank, but limited her DPS against them if she went higher damage to kill squishy targets. Really it'd make her overall a little bit weaker, but consistently powerful into the mid-late game.

Ruin Lance2/27/2016, 8:24:47 AM1 votes

i only have a problem with it when it's this bs that scales with AD. ( Fiora )

EmEx2/27/2016, 8:45:10 AM1 votes

so is it still ok to play a tank support against a Vayne adc or is that a bad idea? also is it any use to play a tank against a Fiora?

HandheldBrandon2/27/2016, 9:05:25 AM1 votes

The thing you failed to mention about Vayne is thats every 3rd attack on a champion that prioritizes Attack speed items over raw damage like other champions.

Shes putting out those 9 autos in the span it takes most people (Other adc's excluded) to put out 2-3.

%max hp true damage literally passively scales in damage all game until level 18 with champion level and then with any health items bought and in Vaynes case it scales with Rank and Fiora's case with AD. There is nothing else in this game that i can think of that literally passively scales in damage throughout the game and to date it has literally been on some of the most mobile and safe champions in the game. Fiora is just pushing it way too far and has way too much going for her to have that extra kind of damage. She could have that %hp true damage turned into physical damage and she would probably still stomp everybody except for maybe Malphite. Thats how good her kit is.

I remember a time where Irelia's True damage was considered almost over powered because True damage was a HUGE HUGE piece of the power budget and Riot explicitly stated they kept the numbers low so it wouldn't get too crazy. Now we have champions putting out double/triple that in true damage casually because Rito threw their power budget out the fucking window.

IMO %Max HP true damage should never have been made because it sets a precedence that defense items are only ever going to be half as effective against those champions who have it.

Lauchmelder2/27/2016, 9:07:51 AM1 votes

It's not the %hp true damage that is BS, it's %maxhp true damage.

%hp true damage at least does less damage the more hp you are missing, %maxhp true damage cuts through everything you have without a downside to it.

GigglesO2/27/2016, 9:13:21 AM1 votes

{quoted}

Against a champion with 6000 health, which is a rather incredible amount to have, Vayne does 720 true damage. This sounds like a lot, but that's only every third auto. On average, Silver Bolts adds 240 damage to each auto attack.

K, Play rammus with 500 armor, press W to have 600, and then look at the damage taken. Oh yea, that is right 90% true damage.

That is why people are annoyed with vayne. You literally can't block it. Stuff like the pic I'm posting, shouldn't happen. http://tinypic.com/r/1043fqq/9

ABlueQuaker2/27/2016, 9:17:44 AM1 votes

Fairly sure if an Enemy squishy was out of position, Vayne could kill them without any points in her W. The whole Duellist playstyle that Vayne's kit is known for comes primarily from Q and E with assistance from her R. It's split into two parts 1. Dodge Abilities and reposition with Q, and 2. wall-banging someone and using that time to get a HP advantage/kill them.

When I build Vayne, I commit to the duellist playstyle. Lots of Lifesteal and lots of surviveability. I'll get an IE if we're really snowballing, but BT is much more reliable. item 3006 item 3153 item 3143 item 3072 item 3046 item 3036. That build has let me splitpush up against the likes of Zed and Trundle and come out on top consistently.