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Do you consider Juggernauts as tanks?

jocomotion·6/9/2019, 4:54:00 PM·1 votes·1,223 views

This always intrigued me, but for those of you who don’t know I found out there’s actually a huge divide on weather or not Juggernauts should be considered as tanks. If you want my opinion the answer is “it depends more on the build than the champion at that point” but let me give you an example

Champions like Garen Darius DrMundo are ridiculously tanky in the right circumstances. They all have healing scaling with their tank stats, Darius has pretty massive AOE, Garen has damage reduction and both Garen and Mundo have innate Tenacity, so what makes them different from tanks?

I think most people arguing against these three will immediately jump to one of three things when arguing that Juggernauts aren’t tanks. And I wanna tackle each of these

  1. Cc reliability
  2. Building ONLY defensive stats
  3. Play style

However, others would argue that this doesn’t matter when picking a tanks, as long as the champion can do these things:

  1. Soak up damage
  2. Demand attention from the enemy team regardless of how
  3. Have defensive scaling tools to survive

I’ll put up a quick discussion of what I think of each of these points, and why I personally disagree or agree with them.

Crowd control

This is the reasoning I hear the least often when it comes to this, but the idea of tanks needing CC to be tanks has come up multiple times. However in my opinion, this is an old idea that doesn’t really hold up anymore. Nowadays, almost every champion has some form of strong CC, but the idea is tanks should have the most in the game, because without it they would make little to no impact due to their low damage, and low mobility. Champions like Nautilus Ornn Alistar have CC out the god-damn wazoo, but then... what about champions like Taric Malphite and Shen ? Who only have 1 source of hard CC? Should they not be considered tanks? What about other champions with Huge CC like Nami Gnar or Riven? I simply disagree with the idea that “tanks need CC to be tanks”. It’s useful sure, but the old adage that needs to die IMO

building defensive items Now this one is one I see in EVERY discussion on this topic. Hybrid items like item 3071 item 3748 and item 3053 are constantly being called out for not giving only tank stats and therefore not being built on tanks, and I have to agree, if they’re only building those items. If a fighter only builds hybrid items with maybe one tank item then no, they’re not a tank. They most likely can’t frontline, and if they can do so, then it won’t be for too long, but I’d also argue a Darius with item 3071 item 3053 item 3065 item 3083 item 3047 item 3742 is a stupidly effective frontline that I have to respect. To me this argument holds more ground than the previous argument. A champion who builds nothing but damage and hybrid items isn’t a frontline tank, but because most of the Juggernauts do still build at least half their builds as pure tank items I still consider them tanks in the mid to late game. Take Aatrox and Mordekaiser for example; I wouldn’t consider either of these two as tanks because their builds make their tankiness unreliable, and instead build around their lifesteal or shielding to survive. Early game may be different depending on what item was started. TLDR: Sure someone with all tank items could frontline better, but that doesn’t mean someone with MOSTLY tank items can’t frontline at all.

playstyle Finally the idea that I agree the most with, playstyle. In league of legends there are subclasses that dictate fairly heavily what a champions playstyle is. Wardens like Poppy Nunu and Taric focus primarily on being tanks themselves as well as making it harder to get to their teammates through Area denial, peel, and granting defensive bonuses. They need to be tanks to more effectively do their job. Vanguards likeMalphite Rammus And Zac focus on starting fights and busting heads through very powerful and potent engage, followed by low but consistent damage. They need to be tanks because they have no way to exit a fight that they start, so they must survive the inevitable damage coming their way. But Juggernauts are different. Juggernauts like DrMundo Shyvana (who is part-Vanguard) and Aatrox idealize being an absolute unit that demands attention, or else they’ll solo-kill important members of your team. They need to be tanks in order to survive people focusing them in a fight, but that’s just like everyone else. Juggernauts don’t get tanks for the sake of their team, but to survive on their own. They’re not mitigating damage like Wardens, nor do they want to be in the middle of a fight like Vanguards, they want to do their damage, and not tank. Therefore, how can they be tanks?

Now let’s go over some of the arguments FOR the Juggernauts Juggernauts can soak damage This. Is. Dumb. Almost as dumb as the idea you need a lot CC otherwise you can’t be a tank. Listen, being able to frontline isn’t a privilege only held by tanks, there are TONS of champions who can break the mold that don’t even fall into the Juggernaut category. Lissandra Swain Gnar Vi Kled none of these guys are tanks, but played well they’re all effective frontlines. Just being able to take large amounts of damage should NEVER dictate weather you’re considered a tank, IMO.

have defensive tools to survive Now this reasoning a little better. Most tanks have some sort of defensive scaling to survive better than just any champion building defensive stats, but if this determines how well someone can be a tank than it’s important to look at Juggernauts too, because they also have defensive scaling stats and good base stats. Braum has damage reduction, and bonus Armor/ MR, but so does Garen Maokai has a % health heal on a low cooldown, but so does Darius Galio Darius Alistar have some of the highest base health in the game And so on. While I argue that just being able to take a lot of damage shouldn’t make you a tank, I would argue that defensive scaling can. Sure champs like Swain have a % Heal, but it’s unreliable, and without his Ult, he can’t be a reliable frontline.

Demanding attention Finally we have what I believe is the most important aspect of a tank, demanding attention. By forcing enemies to waste their Damage, Debuffs, and Crowd control on someone who’s made to take it, they’re putting themselves at a disadvantage, and to me that’s what tanks are all about, and believe it or not, most Juggernauts fit this category too.

Wardens Taric TahmKench Shen focus on mitigating damage off of teammates while being hard to focus themselves Poppy Galio (yes he’s a warden)Nunu use their large AOE deterrents to force enemies to either back off or take damage/CC

Vanguards Zac Alistar Maokai focus on getting in a teamfight and being as disruptive as possible, making the enemies options either attacking them with full effectiveness or attacking their teammates with less effectiveness

While vanguards like Malphite Ornn and Rammus instead focus on having enough damage to be threatening, but only to a certain extend.

Most Juggernauts focus all their attention to being threatening though, and the team makes the decision to ignore them and loose a teammate, or focus them and let their team do what they want, and that’s why I think some juggernauts still work as tanks.

At the end of the day this idea really comes down to how you define tanks. To me, I see tanks as champions who are most effective in the frontline and can survive for extended periods of time even when focused by 2-3 champions, and some Juggernauts fit that as well, hell even some mages and fighters fit that description, but I’m interested in hearing the discussions of others.

11 Comments

Phieldworker6/9/2019, 5:12:01 PM5 votes

Juggernauts are high damage high durability and lower mobility. Aatrox is kind of the exception because of his dash and cool downs but he still suffers the same weakness which is getting kited. I think what differentiates a juggernaut from a tank is they prioritize damage usually then tankiness and can easier 1 v 1 any champ as the game progressed. Tanks, as the game length extends become more team reliant because their base damages just don’t do enough to out duel life steal, shields or damage from others (not including moments of bad positioning by squishies).

Edit: not to mention most juggernauts don’t provide good peeling tools besides kill whoever. This isn’t bad but when it comes to assassins I would say tanks have the tools to peel them easier than juggernauts.

Ps: sorry keep coming up with new stuff. Tanks have disruptive tools built in their kits. Vanguard use these tools to engage and shake thinks up while wardens use the tools mostly for disrupting damage that is aimed at priority teammates. These tools don’t have to be hard cc. Shen’s w for example or poppy’s.

Kazekiba6/9/2019, 5:33:43 PM2 votes

Juggernauts are a subclass of Tank, but they're not "Tanks".

Someone once said, the confusion of calling champions Tanks would be resolved if we took the Pokemon route - Garen and Darius are tanks because theyre indomitable and have high firepower too. But Maokai and Nunu are WALLS; theyre ridiculously difficult to bring down and disrupt your team even if they did little to no damage on their own. Brick walls hurt to hit but they don't hit back. Tanks will blow you up and take a beating, but lack the mobility/range/sustained output of lighter characters, like the Assassins/Mages/ADCs respectively.

Moody P6/9/2019, 4:57:55 PM2 votes

a juggernaut can have 4K health and a high resist build and still vanish in 2 seconds under focus

if they're supposed to tank they aren't very good at it

ContDeCaterinca16/9/2019, 6:14:25 PM2 votes

Tanks and "tanky" champions are not the same for me.

So I don't consider Juggernauts and tanks as being the same because they cannot do the same things:

Late game tanks can 1 vs 1 squshy built mages and ADCs at most, maybe some assassins. Juggernauts at 6 items 1 vs 1 most classes from melee range.

Juggernauts can't peel or engage, they have to walk up to people and hit them(well Aatrox may be a diver hybrid). Tanks, even Vanguards can peel, while a bunch of them have mobility in the form of dashes.

Juggernauts have mediocre CC, tanks have plenty of CC abilities.

Juggernauts are the only subclass that can both deal and take high amounts of damage by Riot definiton, so I think this should be even more compelling than what I have mentioned above.

BrightWîngs6/10/2019, 7:05:22 AM2 votes

Yes they are people forget what tanks ACTUALLY are

A tank is someone who can take damage and sit at the front line without dying instanlty. Just think where the word tanks come from. It comes from military tanks because they can take a lot of damage.

Juggernauts are a different type of tank they are more so a carry tank or damage tank such as Urgot Darius Garen

Then you got more engage and supportive tanks such as Maokai Leona Amumu

Their job and playstyle are almost completely different but what a thank IS is somthing that can take a lot of damage. Going back to the definition of a tank being a military tank. Military tanks are tough to take down, do a ton of damage, and support by taking the focus in the front line.

Now that being said I don't think juggernauts and CC tanks should be held to the same standard as champions because as I said they play very different. My point being the definition of a tank is being hard to take down, both juggernauts and tanks are hard to take down making them tanks with a different purpose to the others.

ImTheJuggernauty6/10/2019, 4:00:33 PM1 votes

There have been many good points in your post and in the comments by others, I'll just say that champs like darius, urgot, garen, etc, basically juggernauts, not only generally have less cc and defensive steroids than tanks (exceptions: darius pull, garen W, and other similar exceptions), but they lack as much mobility as the typical tank.

Also, except for garen, most juggernauts, as pmoody pointed out, can get blown up in the blink of an eye when focused, whereas most tanks will not.

Some other important distinctions to note are:

-Most juggernauts have very weak engage without flash or ghost, and even then, are super unreliable.

-Juggernauts become very useless in situations when they are kited or cc'd to death, because they can't get damage off, and generally lack the ability add good utility to team through peel. Also, they are susceptible to being incredibly weak in fast paced fights with insane dps, dashes, and or lots of cc (annivia, brand, vayne, kogmaw, ezreal (super hard to pin down without help), gnar, thresh, etc). Sure, champs like thresh and naut are easy to stack on if they sit around, but otherwise are great at peeling champs like darius and cc locking, especially if they are smart enough to know when to walk away from him (at about 3 stacks) in a team fight.

-On the contrary, tanks excel in the situations where juggernauts fail. They don't need to do damage and generally have reliable means of engaging, surviving a long time, peeling, lockdown, etc. They are generally useless when the carries they support are too weak to do anything with the abundant cc they provide. They are also great compliments to juggernauts, since many games in which juggernauts fail are caused by lack of engage, peel, etc. For instance, a lot of the time when I play darius, jungle and support go squishy champs, and I'm left to be the chief engager/damage soaker, which is almost NEVER a good thing, especially against long ranged poke comps with plenty of peel (most recently a fed enemy trist, fed, fed annivia, etc, they easy keep me away and damage from well outside my range)

Critmaster Garen6/10/2019, 6:45:30 AM1 votes

juggernauts are fighters. they have an entirely different role on a team than tanks.

being durable is literally the only thing tanks and juggers have in common. overall in their function as carries, juggers have more in common with the other fighters.

they just utilize different tools. while Jax has mobility, Olaf just has more upfront beef.

the same goes for the other juggers.