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let's talk resets(comparing kat to others)

Str8 Ripping·1/11/2015, 9:24:52 PM·6 votes·1,549 views

Feel free to give counter arguments with good ideas and examples. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, but this is what I see, I like other peoples ideas and thoughts.

First off I have no problem with resets as long as it's not ALL basic abilities on kill AND assist. 1 is fine and I think counter play and balance is solid with the champs who have those(trist, kha). I think the right place to start off with this comparison is taking a look at Master Yi, his rework, and balance even after that.

Prior to the current Yi, there used to be a thing called AP Yi. Now im sure some of us remember this bundle of joy with a death cap ulting, hitting Q, getting a kill or assist with a teamfight, then just hitting Q forever(or maybe healing with damage reduction and crazy ratios). There was little counter play to being untargetable and still doing damage with resets on a key ability. Enter the reworked Yi, now we have a champ who is designed to be played how he was intended. He is an assassin with good damage but still very squishy. At first he still had full resets on Q and E with kill or assist, however, this was soon reduced to 70% reset on abilities. (Kat has full cd on Q,W, E) One thing I think is key here is his damage reduction spell and healing are forcing him to stand still and fear being CC'd or maybe just killed outright.

Kat on the other hand has mobility on Shunpo to get in fights, take reduced damage on this same ability to be able to almost cast a full combo completely(damage reduction is 1.5sec, ult takes 2.5 full cast), then maybe get a reset to keep the reduced damage, keep dealing high damage, and then jump OUT if you have to run. Why doesn't Talon get a damage reduction going into fights? He has one jump in, no resets, then has to hope he can ult and run out. On Kha and Trist with resets on jumps alone, you still have to be very cautious on your reset and play positionally correctly. The jumps are annoyimg, but I feel fair since they have cast times that can be followed and ruined mid air unlike Shunpo which is a blink/teleport

Tank stats should very rarely ever be given to an assassin since that slightly reduces counter play. I'm sure we remember that Kha evolved R with damage reduction and invis. He was near tank status. There is little to do about damage reduction minus true damage(to my knowledge). Like I had mentioned, Yi has to stand still and not deal damage to get heal and reduction. Not jump around and still do damage while getting a reduction.

Let's also look at the range on Shunpo, 700. Now 700 range is 100 more than kha jump pre evolution, and more than every adc auto range minus level 18 Tristana and tying Jinx with level 5 Q rockets. This means every single adc is at risk of being blown up by Kat unless they have someone to peel for them and CC Kat, hoping there are no resets to rejump on them. Talon also has a 700 range on his blink, but like I said, it's one way with no resets. Well maybe you're a strong adc right? Got a BT for lifesteal, a little Attack Speed, and maybe an IE also, still better not get hit with Kat R at all or you get 50% reduction on healing from Grievous Wounds for 3 seconds. Also her ult has a range of 550, leaving most AD carries unable to get much of any damage off on her without hitting them at all.

Changes or nerf ideas:

I'm not sure what would be the perfect solution to these things myself. The ideas I would have would maybe be along the lines of

-Grievous Wounds from Ult only on champs below 50% only for the execution kill since you're an assassin changed from "you got hit, so you're reduced healing"

  • NO damage reduction on E since it can be used for escapes and engages. She builds spell vamp anyways, let her rely on kills and damage for sustain and not dying. -Lower Shunpo range by 50 or so, since you still get a speed boost with W anyways. Makes you a little better with choosing your jumps. -ult aoe lowered to 450 or 400 range, you already jump ON people, why cant they run out of range of it before you finish :(

Biggest note I might have -change full resets from all basic abilities on Kill AND assist, to full on kills and half on assist(cds are already low on almost everything anyways, half is still good). or to a high % reset, like master yi 70% reset on kill.

I hope I covered everything I wanted, and apologies for any spelling errors.

Discuss.

17 Comments

forist1/11/2015, 9:38:36 PM3 votes

Not that I disagree with some of your points, but prepare for massive down-votes from katarina mains. It wont be as bad as zed mains, but still pretty toxic.

Btw Talon doesn't have damage reduction on his e because he has damage amplification, kind of like a double-edged sword, because he's designed to be a riskier champ than katarina.

Lord Dusteon1/11/2015, 9:38:42 PM3 votes

Any form of reset that is not full on assist is bad design, and will always be bad design. That encourages Katarina (or any champion) to ALWAYS get a kill, because otherwise they lose out on damage/cc/survivability. This leads to a lot of problems, the foremost being that not getting a kill royally screws you in so many ways (man, good thing I got an assist! Now just to waddle away and hope nobody tries to cc or stop me for 6 seconds. "please report support, killed enemy I was trying to and ruined my resets in the teamfight"). Otherwise for the Yi comparison, his Q's cooldown is reduced by 1 second for autoattack, and his E fully resets before the active runs out most of the time. His W is the only really cooldown gated ability he has after a kill.

Also, Katarina has 15% damage reduction, which is almost unnoticeable. The reason she gets that compared to talon is because she does not get to EWQR and run away in stealth with 100% safety like him.

Direwolfiez1/11/2015, 10:32:58 PM3 votes

Assassins should never get a defensive buff on an ability, it makes absolutely 0 sense with their role on a team. They're supposed to blow up if you pin them down, which is hard enough already considering how much mobility the average assassin has; having a squishy glass canon champ get a defensive boost is dumb, even if they give something up for it, which Kat doesn't seem to. Akali got hers taken away (extra armor + MR while in shroud), so why should Kat still have hers?

xl Kirito lx1/12/2015, 1:08:38 AM3 votes

Well, I'll take a shot at this. I play Katarina enough, and I enjoy the mechanics. Before I say anything, remember, Katarina is a melee champion with low poke or wave clear in the laning phase. It is incredibly hard to win lane as Katarina, and she makes up for it by roaming.

Bringing up Shunpo's range, it's even with Lee Sin's safeguard, and Jax's Leap Strike. It out ranges abilities like Fizz's troll pole, and Zed's living shadow, but Shunpo requires a target. Not incredibly hard with trinket wards, but if you want to look at it from that angle, it's more about ward hopping champions having high relative safety. The 15% damage reduction on Shunpo is noticable, but feels like Zed's W passive, useful but not necessary. Relating this to Kha's old kit, I believe his ultimate's reduction was 60%? And he could have it active over a duration of 6 seconds? Compared to Katarinas 15% over 1 second? Would you prefer if her Shunpo instead increased damage to the target for the next X amount of seconds?

As for the nerfs.

  • Grevious wounds, it's nice, I can see that being a minor nerf. Adds utility to the spell, and dueling potential, but not core on her kit.
  • Damage reduction on the E, stated above. I wouldn't mind if they nerfed it, but I'd expect compensation buffs as a result. -- Side note, Katarina builds spellvamp? Doesn't she use spellvamp as much as she uses Liandries?
  • Range, remember the flash nerfs? Shaco's Q nerfs on the distance? You will have people whiffing horribly for months after. 700 range with a required target doesn't seem horrible imo, but that's me. They won't touch the range tbh, or they would have to change Lee Sin's ward hopping distance also.
  • Ult aoe - You're basically forcing her into an assassin role. Currently, Katarinas grab DFG so they can get the first reset trigger, then keep getting resets in fights. Looking at her kit, she seems like an amazing aoe mage, high risk, high reward aoe. Not saying that she should be specially an assassin, but at that point, why not just make her ult single target?

Resets give her damage. In the middle of a fight, you never get a full channeled ultimate, you're lucky to get over 1.5s. Personally, if you wanted to nerf her, go after DFG. Nerf the % increase in damage, and the % of max health. Suddenly, she can't 100-0 a squishy easily, or make catches. She has to enter a teamfight, live long enough for a teammate to get a reset, and then work off of that. Another nerf, if you're so inclined to nerfing her, have her ult get canceled off of snares. Suddenly, Amumu is another hard counter, champions like Ryze can duel easier.

f00G3MxfPP1/12/2015, 9:05:42 AM1 votes

Kat's skills amounts to do x damage, take reduced damage, move a little faster. As far as I'm concerned, her combo is one ability. Since you said you're okay with resets on one ability, you should be fine with kat.