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How to fix Talon. (all the love he deserves)

Avuta q Pariu·9/19/2014, 7:03:42 PM·45 votes·8,040 views

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/8/83/Talon_OriginalSkin.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141013221146

● Mercy Talon's autoattacks deal 10% additional damage to any target that is slowed, stunned, immobilized or suppressed.

NEW PASSIVE: [insert name here] (suggestion: The Blade's Shadow) Talon enters stealth for 1.5 second by scoring a kill or assist. If Talon is already invisible, the stealth duration is restored to 1.5 seconds.

If talon is in the middle of executing an auto attack, he will only become invisible imediatamenet after finishing executing the hit or canceling it by walking.

NOTE: The new passive is to create an interesting and thematic cool way for Talon to scape or keep chasing.

● [Q] Noxian Diplomacy or Noxian Mercy

ACTIVE: Talon's next autoattack within the next 6 seconds deals bonus physical damage.

BONUS PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 30% bonus AD)

COOLDOWN: 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4

If the target is a champion they will also bleed for 6 seconds, granting sight of their location to Talon and taking additional physical damage each second for the duration. (effect transferred to Cutthroat)

ACTIVE: Talon's next autoattack within the next 6 seconds deals bonus physical damage.

BONUS PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 30% bonus AD). It has 1% increased critical strike chance for every 1% of target's missing health.

COOLDOWN: 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5

NOTE: This is the real Noxian Diplomacy/Mercy, the closer you are to death, the more you deserve it.

● [W] Rake

ACTIVE: Talon sends out a volley of daggers in a cone that then quickly return back to him, dealing physical damage to any enemies it passes through. Additionally the enemy is slowed for 2 seconds, refreshing the duration of the slow if they are hit twice.

SLOW: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40%

Each enemy can only be damaged once at the start of the ability and once at the end.

ACTIVE: Talon sends out a volley of daggers in a cone that then quickly return back to him, dealing physical damage to any enemies it passes through. Additionally the enemy is slowed for 2 seconds, refreshing the duration and doubling the slow effect if they are hit twice.

SLOW: 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25%

Each enemy can only be damaged once at the start of the ability and once at the end.

NOTE: The player is rewarded for hitting twice or punished for missing one hit. It opens space for counter play. So the enemy can run easily if Rake just hit once, but in exchange, the enemy will be slowed by a higher value by getting hit twice, making clear the opportunity for Talon to unleash the full combo.

● [E] Cutthroat

ACTIVE: Talon blinks to the far side of the target enemy, slowing them by 99% for 0.25 seconds and increasing the damage he deals to them within the next 3 seconds.

DAMAGE AMPLIFICATION: 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 15%

ACTIVE: Talon blinks to the far side of the target enemy, slowing them by 99% for 0.25 .

If the target is a champion they will also interrupt the channeling of abilities and bleed for 6 seconds, granting sight of their location. (because Talon cut their throat)

Talon deals 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 / 20% amplified damage against bleeding enemie.

No CUT-ANKLES bullsh**... ;)

NOTE: No more silence, but the skill continues to interrupting channeled abilities. The enemy can still flash instantly before you hit a single blow after using Cutthroat, but you will have vision because of the bleeding.

● [R] Shadow Assault

ACTIVE: Talon disperses blades outwards in a 500-radius ring and gains stealth for up to 2.5 seconds while gaining 40% movement speed. When Talon emerges from stealth, the blades converge on his location. When the ring of blades expands and contracts, enemies hit receive physical damage. Each enemy can only be damaged once at the start of the ability and once at the end.

Shadow Assault is OK.

All skills values ​​are only suggestions, Riot can obviously nerf or buff anything.

"Noxians... I love those guys..." ― Sion Sion

*PS: On the next halloween, Underworld Talon skin. * *PS2: PROJECT: Talon skin. *

And for the visual update, just some work on the model, like Renekton, Miss Fortunes, Cassiopeia and Sivir updates.

http://i.imgur.com/5FYPA2Q.jpg

http://pm1.narvii.com/5815/f5d16795e6c6ef9f2f8270ec8a36390536e33d82_hq.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/B6eIYVrsFD0/maxresdefault.jpg

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/2d/Sivir_comparison.png/revision/latest?cb=20140803081343

64 Comments

RadioGold9/20/2014, 4:17:57 AM11 votes

If you have to do something with his silence, since it is VERY essential to his kit. Please:

"What if talon for his e threw a knife. I'm still unsure what would be better, if he could hit minions with it or if it could only hit champions.

For now lets say it can hit minons. Once he lands that skill shot he reactivates the ability and appears behind the enemy and silences them and applies his damage amp. (obviously no silence if it is a minion)

Edit 2 : I should clarify that in this idea you could throw the knife while invis, but activating it would end the invis.

This would allow for some fancy plays and jukes where you can throw a knife into a jungle camp then just disappear, mind games like you fake out an enemy by hitting them with the knife then ulting, in that moment maybe they panic and flash, then you reactivate and end up behind them with your ult proc.

This would allow counterplay and add a higher skillcap to talon, it would give him a better escape since it could be used on jungle targets you don't necessarily see. It would also allow you to pursue better if somebody enters a bush where you no longer see them.

TL;DR Talon now throws a knife that hits the first unit, he can reactivate to appear behind that unit and silence / damage amp."

Knalxz9/20/2014, 5:34:41 AM7 votes

I really like this OP. Talon Rework FTW!

Also call that passive The Blades Shadow.

Pharrøw9/20/2014, 1:06:59 AM6 votes

Nerf the Q and you're set bud. A 2 second slow on a mobile assassin is good, 4 is cancer.

iRetribution9/20/2014, 2:03:47 AM5 votes

I hate how everyone removes Talon's silence :( but I do like your ideas, so ill upvote :P

Lord Graves III9/19/2014, 7:23:11 PM2 votes

While I like the new passive, I don't understand the intent behind these changes.

What do you feel are Talon's problems? What do you feel this fixes?

Case in point

NOTE: The player is rewarded for hitting twice or punished for missing one hit.

Talon aready has a mechanic on his Rake to do this. If he hits twice he deals double damage. Talon is a damage champ, rewarding his player with CC is kinda lame unless its serious hard CC, which he cannot have since he is an assassin. A player who picks talon doesn't care about the slow, they wanna kill champions. A stacking slow makes more sense on a tank or the right kind of fighter.

Also, the proposed Q feels generic. You gave the bleed to cutthroat and flattened his Q into something less interesting. Why?

Avuta q Pariu9/19/2014, 8:55:12 PM2 votes

It would be wonderful if some Rioter could test this kit internally. item 3069 Talon item 3069

Flintfall9/19/2014, 9:52:51 PM2 votes

Passive names for you:

Steel Veil

Night Lapse

Sleight

Nightwatch

Deft Perception

Whisper

A Talon rework is going to be aimed at fixing his issues, the main ones being:

  • He's an aoe assassin, really hard to work with that

  • Either you die, or he's useless (like, really useless)

  • Damage is unavoidable and hard to counter

The problem is all of his identity lies in these points, so a Talon rework is going to have to be aimed at fixing these issues.

I don't claim to hold the answers, but adding more damage to the Q and E and making the W slow more is not going to fix these issues.

Phoneixflare9/22/2014, 10:08:07 AM2 votes

I agree with making his e do damage if they are going to take away his silence. Riot plz pay attention and be careful with my favorite champion in the game since season 2. Please.

Knight SoIaire 9/22/2014, 4:25:47 PM2 votes

max hp dmg is bad talon stacks arpen so he will hurt tanks a lot if talon loses silence it would be enough to give him either some dmg reduction so he wont die to retaliation (look at lb who gets hit back and is much worse cause of that ) or some dmg

Avuta q Pariu9/24/2014, 9:24:28 PM2 votes

Riot, comment here, so this post can live forever and then we can reach a better Talon. item 3069 Talon item 3460

bitdullblade9/25/2014, 12:42:50 AM2 votes

I do really like the transfer of bleed to E. First of, as you pointed out it makes sure that the name still makes sense (which is something Riot pointed out,the name kinda doesn't make sense since the silence is taken away). Also I feel like E is kinda weak now even with the compensation of a slow. It kind of feels like he has lost reason to use his E except as an interaction with his Ult. I had recently vs'd a talon and all his E felt like it was doing was only throwing me personally off (slightly) but not my champion (if that makes sense)- meaning I continued going on about my business (and damage) like nothing happened. The slow is so slight even at 99% that it doesn't seem to make too much of a difference even with the extra damage from his Q and passive. I am not good at numbers so I am not sure about the rest of your suggestions lol But overall I think it looks pretty good. I am just hoping Riot takes a look at what people are saying. I know that not a lot of people seem to play Talon but I think they should try to make fans of champions (we all have our fav) happy while still letting there be counterplay etc. Also I agree Talon needs a new skin :D (and an updated splash, this one is nice but is becoming outdated with the new splash standards :P)

Knalxz9/26/2014, 7:32:39 PM2 votes

Never give up

PraiseYossarian10/6/2014, 11:16:47 PM2 votes

I like the new passive, I don't know about the other changes. I feel like the new passive alone might make him a little strong and the other changes could make him even better. The new passive would be really thematically awesome though as long as the rest of his kit was balanced around it to compensate.

ChaddyFantome7/11/2015, 11:48:38 PM2 votes

I really like these Ideas. As a long time Talon main, I will admit that alot of his abilities do feel like they were in the wrong place and reshuffling them like you did remedies alot of the issues with that.

Most importantly, I LOVE the new passive, not only does it fit him perfectly thematically, but it also makes room for both counterplay and flashy plays, and lets be honest, Talon has always been binary in nature.

This new passive places 100% on his strengths and identity as a champion. The idea of a talon sneaking around and appearing instantly around an opponent then dispensary again and reappearing, skirting around the battle and weaving in and out is exactly the kind of thing his kit needs to play up.

100% agree with it. Please get riot to see this, I wanna see this get attention, asap. #FreeTalonTalon

Gamma Anomaly7/15/2015, 8:44:11 PM2 votes

I think this is a great article, with great suggestions on how to make Talon a better champion with more counterplay and more mechanics to his kit. One thing, I think this article would get more attention if there was a short explanation (a paragraph or two maybe) on why Talon needs these changes. I have been playing Talon as my main since I started playing and I think he needs a change as well, but I think an explanation for why he needs a change is in order. Just a comment!

1CzXAXBW8A9/4/2015, 9:45:58 AM2 votes

I love how in depth you got with your Talon changes, I love Talon. He just needs some tweaking. Like his E, Cutthroat, if you cut some1s throat you would think it would do damage. right?

Avuta q Pariu9/25/2014, 5:00:43 PM1 votes

Unfortunately, Riot did not commented, so... the topic has left from the first page, then our dreams are pretty much dead. Thanks to everyone who gave support. Keep the dream on for Riot to make Talon a cool and coherent hero.

Talon

Avuta q Pariu9/25/2014, 9:52:06 PM1 votes

I played some games with Talon on patch 4.17...

R.I.P. Talon ✩ 23/08/2011 - ✝25/09/2014

Avuta q Pariu8/17/2015, 9:32:03 PM1 votes

up :)

Twitch Chat7/26/2016, 11:17:42 PM1 votes

looks like you didnt change up talon's blink -> instant burst. in fact you made it worse by shifting his bleed's damage into an upfront crit. into the trash it goes.

SnowFall9/20/2014, 3:17:05 PM1 votes

That removal of 10% damage from passive will be really felt if Talon is going crits (trinity+ie+frozen mallet), I don't think 1 second invisibility which is easily countered is more viable than that.

Avuta q Pariu9/22/2014, 1:07:11 AM1 votes

Any more suggestions?

Sire Hippington10/7/2014, 8:02:50 PM1 votes

Ur rework wouldn't adress one off his current main problems in terms of gamehealth/balance. His dast upfront burst would be to high. More or less instantly oneshoting an enemy from 700 range still is a very problematic thing and really frustraiting on thereciving end. He still would have troubles escaping, as Oracles Lense and Pickwards counter 100% of his escape. In the End, he would stay a massive feast or famin problem. I think he needs more sustained impact in fights and a bit less upfront burst to work well without beeing unfun to play against.

My aproach would be:

  • Passive: I like ur idea, but i think it only can work if we change something on stealth/stealthdetection in generall(which should be done anyway)
  • Q: physical damage: 10 / 30/ 50 / 70/ 90 (+1.1/1.15/1.2/1.25/1.3 total-AD), 0.7 sec silence,10/15/20/25/30%as for 4sec, 9/8/7/6/5sec cd, 25mana i'd like to keep the silence in his kit. if used on Q, it gives a bit time to react for his enemies compared to the old silences on E, and it would be thematically fitting, as noxian-diplomacy is not negotiation, but silencing the opponent with bruteforce. The AS is there to increase his potential dps. Simply reduceing the cd for that would result in a to high silence-uptime
  • W: total damage: 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260(1.2 bonus ad), 20/25/30/35/40% slow, 11/10/9/8/7sec cd, 50/55/60/65/70 mana, 650 range Simply lower cd at later ranks and a bit more range to increase his impact on longer fights by hitting more people more often with rake
  • E: change into an 650 range dash to towards target point. If he colides with an enemy champion, he positions behind the enemy applying a bleeding to him. bleeding enemys take 10/15/20/25/30(0.2ad) damage per second, up to 50% more dmage based on missing health(double damage vs targets at 20% or lower health). The bleeding lasts for 3 sec, but the duration is refreshed everytime u deal damage with another skill to the enemy. U gain vision on the bleeding target if it's within 1500 range and 7/9/11/13/15% increased ms if walking towards it.15/13.5/12/10.5/9sec cd, 40/45/50/55/60mana on a first read the new E might seem very complicated, but it is rather simple. It now is a skillshot-dash and therefor offers counterplay, but also escape-potential. The bleed effeckt increases ur sustained damage vs ur prime target and help sticking to it with the vision and speedbuff
  • R is fine as it is.

Another idea would be focusing more on stealth with Talon:

  • Passive: Blade from the Shadows: If u get out of enemy vision, ur next AA will deal 10(0.25bonus ad)+5/lvl bonus damage and reduce the targets armor by 10/15/20/25, increasing at lvl 6/11/16

  • Q: Shadow Strike: Talons next AA deals 10/30/50/70/90(0.25bonus ad) missing health bonusdamage. after 0.5sec delay, he becomes invisible for 1sec. 8/7/6/5/4sec cd, 30/35740/45/50mana The frequent shortduration silence makes him pretty sliperry in fights and allows to use the passive

  • W: damage per hit: 30/55/80/105/130(0.6ad), slows by 10/15/20/25/30% per hit(stacks aditivly) for 2.5 sec. Misslespeed reduced, range increased from 600 to 800, cd 9/8.5/8/7.5/7sec, 40/45/50/55/60mana The slower speed alows to eventually dodge atleast the second part, but therefor

  • E: Dash behind target enemy aflicting bleed. Bleeding enemys take 10/15720/25/30(0.2ad) per sec for 5 sec, and u have vision on them.16/14/12/10/8sec cd simply there for mobillity and a small dot that helps keeping track off enemys

  • R: reomve ms-buff, add new passive effeckt: Talon gains 15/20/25%ms while stealthed. this entire rework would make Talon focused on escapeing focus and repositioning with stealth, while dealing damage in short bursts with Q+passive

note that numbers are just there to give an basic impresion, properly tweaked numbers wpuld ofcourse need lots of playtesting

Sexual Deviant2/9/2015, 7:41:35 AM1 votes

The problem with Talon has been his binary assassination pattern of instantly popping squishies with doubly amped auto attacks that crit while having little counterplay. Even without his silence he still just jumps on you and does one spell rotation in about 1 sec. The goal is to develop a healthy way to assassinate targets. I'll start with the things I've never liked about his kit:

His passive: Everyone knows about it, it's a none interactive, low impact relic of a passive from a time when dashes weren't on every carry and Talon could afford to Rake and then auto attack a few times for a decent return of damage. Now you get one amped aa in and you get it stacked with another damage amp for free.

The bleed on Q: A DOT is strange thing for an assassin to have. Especially one that lasts six seconds and has such low damage at early levels that it literally doesn't surpass your targets natural health regen. However, thematically I think the vision it gives is great, unfortunately there is no reliable way to make use of it, since you have to spend your only gap closer to apply it. Generally what happens is you blink onto someone and they immediately flash/dash/jump
over a wall and they're gone. Sure you have the vision you need to chase but you have no way to actually do so, without flashing.

Talon is painfully immobile. Probably his greatest weakness. He simply does not have the tools to stick to even remotely mobile targets. The culprits are an unreasonably long cooldown on Cutthroat, and the fact that stealth and ms are too easily countered. Other assassins have long cooldowns on their jumps/dashes/blinks, however all of them have ways of shortening those cooldowns within their kits. Fizz and LeBlanc for example have a simple solution, max the ability first. Talon CANNOT do that. Zed has an equally long cooldown on his Living Shadow that is also maxed last, however, his Shadow Slash can substantially reduce that cooldown. Akali just has all the dashes in the world that can even be refreshed with kills, while Kha'zix and Katarina have jumps as there are more kills happening. Talon has no such interactions. Shadow Assault will usually get you closer to targets, but since casting it close to enemies will always alert them to your approach with plenty of time to simply walk away and then you have to Cutthroat to them, both of your movement abilities are gone and they haven't spent any yet.

These are his Key problems.

Now for the things that I like.

Rake, it's a fine spell no problem with it. Moderate range, soft cc, great damage, thematic of the champion, beautiful.

Shadow Assault, vanish in a flurry of knives only to have them return to you some new strategic position in a fight. So cool. Such a shame that the stealth usually passed up for immediate damage.

Vision from bleed. A unique and great utility of an ability for an assassin.

Instantaneous blink. Having no delay on a blink is actually a great asset over similar but slower abilities. Those fractions of a second are the difference of avoiding an Orianna ult, Xerath stun or any number of abilities.

So I think these are the core attributes that make Talon who he is. General purpose damage and soft cc in Rake, flashy stealth granting Shadow Assault, vision granting bleed that facilitates chasing targets who escape over walls or into brush and sudden and immediate gap closer.

We need to develop some sort of assassination pattern that utilizes these things to maintain Talon's identity as a champion while giving him better tools in the process.

So here's what I got:

Passive: Noxian Diplomacy - Talon's first auto attack on an enemy champion will cause them to bleed dealing physical damage and revealing their location for 6 seconds.

Q - I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH IT*

W- Rake - It's fine, although there is now no interaction with the slow.

E - Cutthroat - Talon instantly appears behind target enemy amplifying his damage to it by a percentage and resetting his attack animation. If Talon has not blinked to that target in the past 9 seconds Cutthroat's cooldown is reduced to 3 seconds. (This ability is basically the proposed changes to Katarina's Shunpo for patch 5.3/5.4. Having an ability with internal cdr seems redundant and silly on a champion whose passive refreshed the cooldown completely. I think it makes much more since here.)

R - Unchanged

The idea is to blink to your target and apply your vision bleed. Here you can ult immediately or spend the fairly long cooldown of Rake just before disappearing or save it for some utility later. Now in stealth you can pull the blades back immediately for faster damage or maintain stealth and wait for Cutthroat to come off of its reduced cooldown. This allows for both you and your opponent ample opportunity to play and counter play one another.

*The reason I think Q must be changed to something other than a super powerful auto attack is that with this new stickiness having that much upfront damage would just be too ridiculous, without it his damage is far too low but with it, it's far too high. The current Q just doesn't fit. Maybe some momentary spell shield that reflects damage, something to give him better dueling potential or some just raw damage ability that isn't just an auto attack but I'm not sure on this one.

Over all this would make Talon far more mobile and sticky, like a proper assassin, instead of a ball of AD with a Silence that locks you down while he presses all the buttons to kill you instantly or just not do enough damage and die with no tools left.

OblongOtter9/23/2014, 5:19:18 AM1 votes

I stopped playing him for a while, but this seems like it would make him fun again, less "Press buttons and either win or lose." I especially like that E change oPimp posted that makes his E very skillful and fun.

Lettermage9/23/2014, 7:44:32 PM1 votes

Talon is very strong right now. Any "fix" would just be padding his already powerful kit. His winrate is on the rise, and several LoL sites are giving him high tier grading. Is love really what he needs, beyond a VU?

Avuta q Pariu9/24/2014, 3:32:53 AM1 votes

● [E] Cutthroat

ACTIVE: Talon instantly appears behind his target, silencing them for 1 second and amplifying his damage against that target for 3 seconds.

ACTIVE: Talon instantly appears behind his target interrupting channels.

If the target is a champion they will also bleed for 6 seconds, granting sight of their location to Talon and taking additional physical damage each second for the duration. (because Talon cut his throat)

OR PERHAPS

ACTIVE: Talon instantly appears behind his target, stunning them for 0.1 second. (or maybe 0.25 seconds)

If the target is a champion they will also bleed for 6 seconds, granting sight of their location to Talon and taking additional physical damage each second for the duration. (because Talon cut his throat)

NOTE: This would continue to interrupting channels and still give that little-mini-stop-move that Riot wants to add as 99% slow for 0.25 seconds.

Avuta q Pariu2/4/2016, 1:21:35 AM1 votes

Probably he is perfect for now. :D

Avuta q Pariu7/26/2016, 11:11:49 PM1 votes

Now we're talking! :D