Ashe's Passive could use a rework

Sayer Raider·Dec 12, 2014·32 votes·1,924 views

So, after watching how a few champions had their abilities and passives reworked, I thought Ashe would be a good candidate for this. I mean, her passive is horrible if you want to score critical hits. Not only do you have to spend three seconds without attacking (which during a laning phase or a teamfight means you won't do anything), but you also have to wait until she reaches one hundred points of concentration for a single crit. Meanwhile, Caitlyn's passive allows her to stack a critical headshot every time she attacks, and even double if she hides in a bush, which means that for every critical hit of Ashe, Caitlyn already dealt ten headshots in a row without stopping.

So, I was thinking that maybe her passive could be changed a bit, kind of like how Garen starts kicking sooner as you elevel up, and maybe speed up the rate she stacks her concentration points. I'm a main ADC, but I barely play with her because my other ADCs are more "fun" to play. After all, only two of her abilities deal damage, while Jinx, Caitlyn, Tristana, Ezreal and Vayne deal damage or increase the power of their attacks and/or other abilities. I don't ask for a full rework, but maybe a revision to her passive so she can become better.

23 Comments

Sayer RaiderDec 12, 20146 votes

{quoted} Make it charge ala Shiv sans the auto-attacking part. Or in other words, it charges when Ashe move around. Given her propensity to kite that would mesh pretty well with the rest of her kit.

I like that idea. As an ADC, running around to build her crits could help to teach new players how to avoid enemy attacks and such. After all, the 450 IP characters are good to teach new players the mechanics of the game and such.

{quoted} I find Ashe's passive to be incredibly strong. I am only a low ELO player, so I can't speak to her viability at higher tiers, but she is perfectly able to carry in low ELO games, and her passive contributes significantly to her strength. She delivers a surprising amount of initial burst, followed up by solid DPS.

For a new player, Ashe is a good pick, but as far as I've seen when I reached lvel 30 and played rankeds, the less she's been played. So far I've seen a lot of Lucians, Jinxs, Vaynes and Tristanas, but only about a handful of Ashes. I can't make an estimation, but she doesn't seem to be a very popular ADC with the more experienced players.

{quoted} Maybe let her charge her passive non stop? Combat or not? That way she wouldn't suffer from "gotta wait 1 minute for crit" and then "god damn.. Just wasted my precious crit on mob. Brb 1min"

That would work, too. As long as she doesn't get crits too often, I don't think it would break the game. And at least players won't have to feel like they wasted their time charging a crit only to hit a wrong target by accident.

AmazingGoatDec 12, 20145 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sayer Raider,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=duMldkQj,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2014-12-12T20:02:53.664+0000) I like that idea. As an ADC, running around to build her crits could help to teach new players how to avoid enemy attacks and such. After all, the 450 IP characters are good to teach new players the mechanics of the game and such.

For a new player, Ashe is a good pick, but as far as I've seen when I reached lvel 30 and played rankeds, the less she's been played. So far I've seen a lot of Lucians, Jinxs, Vaynes and Tristanas, but only about a handful of Ashes. I can't make an estimation, but she doesn't seem to be a very popular ADC with the more experienced players.

That would work, too. As long as she doesn't get crits too often, I don't think it would break the game. And at least players won't have to feel like they wasted their time charging a crit only to hit a wrong target by accident.

Ashe has a 51% win rate in silver, a 52% win rate in gold, a 54% win rate in platinum, and a 56% win rate in diamond. That is not the distribution of a champion that needs buffs, or who is only suitable for beginners.

Ashe, like many immobile champions, requires solid positioning. That is not a skill that shows up in video highlights, but it does show up in win rate.

My understanding is that there are two main reasons Ashe doesn't see play competitively:

(1) The current meta looks for pure damage with some mobility/survivability from the ADC spot, and utility/engage elsewhere; and (2) Mikael's neutralizes her ult.

Neither of these is NEARLY as big of a factor in solo queue below challenger level.

Lumus AvatarDec 12, 20145 votes

I am getting a little tired of people who don't understand how to use a starter character complaining about her passive. Ashe has, arguably, one of the best passives in the game because it is always relevant. You can start laning with a crit against the enemy adc, which is about 1/3 of their hp at level 1 with a doran's blade or longsword.

You're not going to try to crit every attack, so you're not sitting around waiting for the passive between each shot. I get the idea people do this when they complain in this manner.

Her passives scales incredibly well into late game as the starting point after each passive crit is your current Crit chance. This means that at level 1 with a doran's blade, you start the counter at 0 and increase by 6 each second untill 100. Mid game, you have 25% crit chance. Now when you use the passive, it starts at 25 and grows by 10 per second to 100. Late game at 50% crit chance, it starts at 50 and grows by 15 per second.

Her passive is on HOLD while you're attacking. When you attack, you PAUSE the crit build. You wait three seconds, it starts at 10 and gets to 30, you last hit a creep. wait 2 seconds, last hit another creep. wait 3 seconds and it starts at 30 and gets to 50, you last hit again. You can actually use this pausing to make sure you have the crit right when you want to harass and not accidentally use it on a creep. I have shot a creep when the counter was at 99 so that I could move into position and shoot an autocrit at my lane opponent without missing a beat.

Has your team ever invade the enemy jungle at the start of the game? Have you ever had Ashe crit the jungler on the first hit and ensured that your team killed all present enemies and lost no one? My team invaded enemy jungle once and it turned into a 5v5 at blue. I was Ashe and crit their adc, taking her out in a second which meant my team could steamroll that fight, Acing at the cost of one death.

Until they get rid of crit as a game mechanic, there is no reason to change Ashe's passive. She is the IDEAL learner ADC and if you know what you're doing, she'll serve skilled players well also.

SmokingPuffinDec 12, 20145 votes

Until they get rid of crit as a game mechanic, there is no reason to change Ashe's passive. She is the IDEAL learner ADC and if you know what you're doing, she'll serve skilled players well also.

There are plenty of reasons to consider change here:

Why does a starter character have a passive that takes a paragraph to describe and still needs an experienced player to explain how to use properly? Compare Garen and Ryze passives, much more obvious.
It's not thematic and doesn't align with the rest of her kit. If you're designing a frost archer, probably your passive should have some interaction with frost.
It's super clunky. Her passive mechanic doesn't make sense on a farming champion. Much more in keeping with a jungler or support playstyle. Even a mage would get more crits out of the thing.

That said, Ashe changes aren't urgent. Many bigger problems in the game right now.

Silents429Dec 12, 20142 votes

A farming champion with a passive that gives her wonderful harass to allow her to keep farming.

Just because she is a frost archer doesn't mean everything about her has to relate to the frost part, it can relate to the archer part.

Him explaining how the passive itself works took no more then a sentence, he was just providing examples of its use.

Leave Ashe alone, just because other ADC mains complain about her mobility and 2 damaging attacks doesn't imply she is weak. In the right hands Ashe is an monster, and even Riot has come out to admit she is a wonderful ADC.

VegetableFoeDec 13, 20141 votes

Except that it does align with the rest of her kit. What does Ashe do? She shoots her ultimate to stun a target so that she can walk up and kill them. Fire ult, walk up, burst. Her guaranteed crit means that she can delete an enemy squishy in the duration of her stun. If anything, it's overpowered but nobody is complaining about it because nobody plays against Ashe. It's pretty funny that everybody will come and laugh at Ashe's passive and ask for a rework and downvote anyone who says it's fine the way it is, yet none of them actually play Ashe period. I play Ashe frequently while playing with my friends, and her passive is a big reason why she's great. She can almost guarantee that she gets fed in a game just because her ultimate and passive - it doesn't matter if she gets behind in a game, she can come back because she can delete fed enemies off the map.

SmokingPuffinDec 13, 20142 votes

Except that it does align with the rest of her kit. What does Ashe do? She shoots her ultimate to stun a target so that she can walk up and kill them. Fire ult, walk up, burst. Her guaranteed crit means that she can delete an enemy squishy in the duration of her stun.

This play pattern is good mechanically. The alignment I'm referring to is thematic. We could preserve the play pattern you like while improving the feels and general utility of the passive. For example:

Shatter - Ashe's basic attacks against enemies affected by Frost have an increased critical chance based on their movement speed. Shatter can only critical strike a target once every X seconds.

Note: Ashe's Q, W, and R apply Frost, as do a few other champions. From a gameplay perspective, I would hope this passive improve's Ashe's pretty weak trading power in lane, while maintaining the good feels from landing an arrow. I also think the cross-champion synergy effect would be fun.

If anything, it's overpowered but nobody is complaining about it because nobody plays against Ashe. It's pretty funny that everybody will come and laugh at Ashe's passive and ask for a rework and downvote anyone who says it's fine the way it is, yet none of them actually play Ashe period.

Ashe isn't a top tier ADC, but she's pretty solid. Changes are not urgent here. In particular, Varus is a similar dude in more urgent need of attention.

AmazingGoatDec 12, 20145 votes

I find Ashe's passive to be incredibly strong. I am only a low ELO player, so I can't speak to her viability at higher tiers, but she is perfectly able to carry in low ELO games, and her passive contributes significantly to her strength. She delivers a surprising amount of initial burst, followed up by solid DPS.

M4nTiCoR3Dec 12, 20145 votes

I like the idea of 2 changes.

#1 Scoring a last hit on a minion does not deactivate the charge

#2 Focus can only be activated when attacking enemy champions

This encourages new players to farm last hits even more, and provides Ashe with a more reliable poke against enemy laners.

webhippoDec 12, 20144 votes

My two Ideas: Swap her passive with Talon's (Autoattacks deal 10% additional damage to any target that is slowed, stunned, immobilized or suppressed.)

Keep her current passive but instead of a crit, she gets a stun or root on her next auto attack to emphasize her cc and anti mobility kit.

The SoulforgedDec 12, 20144 votes

{quoted} My two Ideas: Swap her passive with Talon's (Autoattacks deal 10% additional damage to any target that is slowed, stunned, immobilized or suppressed.)

or

Keep her current passive but instead of a crit, she gets a stun or root on her next auto attack to emphasize her cc and anti mobility kit.

Along with other changes to help her in stacking it, 2 may work.

Atro SpikerDec 13, 20142 votes

{quoted}

My two Ideas: Swap her passive with Talon's (Autoattacks deal 10% additional damage to any target that is slowed, stunned, immobilized or suppressed.)

I hate when people suggest this because it is so boring. It just means Ashe does 10% more damage always (except when laning to conserve mana). Even if her current passive isn't very strong, it at least makes you think about it and gives good poke when you can only get the occasional aa.

webhippoDec 13, 20142 votes

True, I agree with that. But what is nice about this passive is that she can now synergize with other Freljord champions and all of their slows and such. Each has its pros and cons.

WhereTheNamesAtDec 14, 20141 votes

lol pls swap Ashe and Talon passive. Talon would instantly become pick or ban and late game team fights would just be 4v5s. Talon's Q with an IE crit and full build 1 shots anyone that doesn't build armor. And Ashe having talon's passive would make her relevant again...

RebonackDec 12, 20142 votes

Make it charge ala Shiv sans the auto-attacking part. Or in other words, it charges when Ashe move around. Given her propensity to kite that would mesh pretty well with the rest of her kit.

SaiannaDec 12, 20142 votes

Maybe let her charge her passive non stop? Combat or not? That way she wouldn't suffer from "gotta wait 1 minute for crit" and then "god damn.. Just wasted my precious crit on mob. Brb 1min"

EzraTwitchDec 13, 20142 votes

Please dont, that passive is amazing if you utilize it correct.

PatMcGroynDec 13, 20142 votes

I think Ashe's passive should build up more like Statik Shiv, gaining stacks from moving and attacking. As it is, the "Focus" passive rewards you being out of combat, instead of encouraging her to attack. I think shifting her passive to gain more stacks by attacking and moving reinforces her identity as a kiting champ, as well as enhancing her identity as a crit building ADC.

Pvt Yong TaiDec 13, 20141 votes

I was thinking we could reverse the numbers, building up slowly to 100% crit chance with each attack, and slowly decaying after leaving combat, but I guess that's too similar to Trynd's passive. The other ideas in this thread are better imo.

QuephaDec 13, 20141 votes

ashe's passive is fun, impactful, has strategic implications, but doesn't completely define her kit. like a passive should do.

ChairJockeyDec 13, 20141 votes

if her passive needed a buff they would just rollback the nerf they gave it a few seasons ago. it used to be able to trigger at any % instead of at 100%.

BallisticMouseDec 13, 20141 votes

Ashe's passive is a neat way to poke very early game but completely useless afterwards...

Sayer RaiderDec 18, 20141 votes

Well, I see that there's a lot of opinions, but most of us would like to see it changed/upgraded. I hope Riot sees this tread and comments about our debate of whether Ashe's passive should b reworked or left as it is now.