A 17-Page Color Coded Shaco Rework Returns -- Now with less pages and more infographics!

AD Ezreal·10/16/2016, 8:22:09 PM·122 votes·25,653 views

Hey all,

11 months ago, with some help from Workshop Shaco (now known as Seeded Rye Bread), I posted a Shaco Rework hoping to get intelligent feedback from the community. The post did fairly well here on the Gameplay Forum, and managed to make it to the front page of Reddit as well.

Through that first rework I met my friend DrugsForRobots, and we began to work on new reworks for Shaco. We did our best to take into account everything we learned from reading hundreds of perspectives on Shaco that were all shared on the first rework. This has been an incredible learning experience for both of us.

And now that the assassin update is approaching, we are just about out of time. So now we bring you two new Shaco reworks: a faithful rework, and a flavorful rework. After lots of consideration we feel that the healthiest way to improve Shaco (both thematically and gameplay wise) is not to give him more burst or killing power, but instead to give him more power to help his team in new ways. However, we adamantly believe it is not our place to determine what Shaco is or should be--we believe that is up to Riot and the community as a whole--however, we did consider the perspectives of many players, and do hope that our ideas can be considered moving forward.

Rework 1: A Faithful Shaco Rework (Click here to view):

This rework focuses almost exclusively on the feedback the first rework received. It's all about preserving Shaco's current in game identity and the way players see him. It hopes to fix what the community perceives as major problems (lack of counterplay, snowbally passive, weird power curve throughout the game, "useless" in teamfights, etc.) while doubling down on the things that make Shaco great (high skill ceiling, outplay tricks, quirky jungle clears, being "the mosquito of the jungle", working as AP, AD, or Tank, being adaptable, etc.)

This rework also has some various lore ideas/suggestions that connect him to Kindred, and adds a twist to Riot's story, "A Good Death". Special thanks to Luke Jeffrey (IGN: Gralph) for writing the italicized lore text.

Rework 2: A Flavorful Rework (Click here to view):

This rework takes Shaco's identity and puts it into overdrive. This is where we put our more extreme ideas for Shaco, turning him into a character that doubles down on the potential of playing both as a demon and a jester--fulfilling the fantasy of playing the dark subservient to comedy.

This rework also has some various lore ideas/suggestions that connect him to Jhin, and makes a case for why it makes thematic sense to consider making Support Shaco's secondary role.

Vision Overhaul (Click here to view):

We believe that, in order for stealth to be a healthy gameplay dynamic, there must be more interplay involved within the vision game.

This interplay already exists, but it is exceedingly rare, as few champions have interactions with it. As an extreme example, Lee Sin with his basic Sight is countered by Shaco's Invisibility. However, if he lands a lucky Sonic Wave, or if his allied Rek'Sai uses Tremor Sense to Detect Shaco, Shaco's plan is foiled. If Shaco is in danger after becoming revealed, his allied Quinn can save him by Nearsighting the enemy threats by skillfully blinding Lee Sin and Rek'Sai in the same shot. This would remove the True Sight threat of Lee Sin's Sonic Wave, but Rek'Sai could still use her Tremor Sense to Detect Shaco and close in for the kill.

More of these types of interactions would be great, but they are currently only on a select subset of champions. As a result, most of the time Stealth is either leaves the enemy champions with no way to react, or it is 100% countered with a pink ward. We hope that a look at vision, warding, and interactivity will help stealth to feel more rewarding.

Feedback--

What are your thoughts on this? What do you like? What do you hate? What would you change? What do you think we failed to consider?

We've worked on this for nearly a year now, and tried to consider all the feedback we received from the first rework, so we would love to hear what people think of these ideas!

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/93/ShacoSquare.png/revision/latest?cb=20150402220937

EDIT:

Bonus Reductionist "Rework" -- An attempt to address Shaco's biggest issues with as few changes as possible (Explanations here):

  1. Change Shaco's passive to deal flat damage / level instead of a percentage of his bonus AD

  2. Boxes are placed instantly. Boxes have 6 hp and take damage according to this chart:

Abilities and Ranged basic attacks deal 2 damage

Melee basic attacks deal 3 damage

Smite deals 6 damage

  1. If Shaco's ult is out when he dies, it explodes instantly but deals 50% damage. Shaco's clone leash radius is visible to him, and the clone disappears in a puff of orange smoke to reappear next to Shaco if it leaves the radius.

60 Comments

Teridax6810/16/2016, 9:41:07 PM13 votes

Reposting this, because this thread deserves far more attention:

This is beautiful to read. The entire presentation is very well done, and both kits look thoroughly well-researched. I could see either kit in the game. As for the vision rework, I responded in DrugsForRobots's original thread a while ago: I think it's also very well though-out, and I mostly agree with it. I certainly agree that the vision game is rich with potential for interesting sight and anti-sight mechanics, and Shaco's multiple forms of trickery through stealth and deception make him a good example of how the vision game could evolve.

Rework 1 feels like an efficient, quick-and-dirty set of changes for Shaco while preparing for a proper VGU, and I could see him receiving these kinds of changes in the upcoming Assassin Update. I think it's a great idea to add an AP ratio to his Q and turn his passive into flat damage, as it'll properly validate his AP build, and I like the tweaks to his W, which would make it much better when used on the fly, and less prone to cheesy box stacking. The only change I'm slightly iffy about is having his E mark get detonated by allies, since I'm not entirely convinced that any potential support playstyle of his should rely on another player's input for direct kit synergy, but still, even for a pure assassin, it would be a good way of letting him hit and run while still dealing good overall damage in teamfights, which is currently something he struggles with.

In the end, though, Rework 2 is my favorite, and looks like tremendous fun. The new passive is flavorful, appropriate and potentially useful in many different situations, a wind-down on Jack-In-The-Box also makes perfect sense, and Deceive/Hallucinate are both great. Again, not that big a fan of ally marking on Q either, and I think Shaco's ult should probably just deal 100% damage and have 100% of his health at all times, even if comes at a cost in his power elsewhere, for consistency's sake, but those are relatively minor complaints. If there's one thing I don't really like, it's the E, which feels a bit fiddly and not very appropriate for Shaco's hit-and-run gameplay: landing one backstab is already hard, since units have no turn speed; two consecutive backstabs might just end up being more based on chance than on meaningful interaction, and on-hit damage with a persistent slow doesn't really scream "deadly stealth clown", even if it's faithful to his current kit. I'd rework that ability and turn it into something that would be better at occasionally exploiting an enemy's blind spots.

I really like these reworks, and I hope this thread gets a lot more attention. Shaco is a champion whose theme and gameplay have both tremendous potential, and I can sort of see him work as a legitimate support with his second kit. Shaco could be the CC assassin that Ekko can only dream of being, and could potentially even open the gates for AD supports further down the line, whatever that would look like.

DrugsForRobots10/16/2016, 9:24:24 PM11 votes

In addition to these sight changes we were thinking about champion abilities that could have stealth interactions, and here are a few ideas:

  • Bard's Shrines grant Sight around them, similar to Shaco's Boxes.
  • Evelynn with a new single-target ulti that turns her prey and her totally invisible to everyone but each other, and makes clever use of overlays and the Fog of War to give both player's the feeling like they're totally enveloped in the darkness (similar to Noct's ultimate.)
  • Lux's abilities all reveal / dispel the Fog of War as their projectile travels.
  • MasterYi while Meditating he can detect nearby enemies' aura (like a blueish haze through the Fog of War in a large area around him. It would be distinct from Sweeping Lens' Silhouette effect as it wouldn't give you any indication as to who the enemy is, it's the same blueish haze for all enemy champs.) This is a detection effect.
  • Quinn's Heightened Sense now give her an ! icon if an invisible enemy is near (in addition to the huge AoE Sight reveal it has now.)
  • Nocturne's Duskbringer now Nearsights his prey. His Shroud of Darkness turns him invis.
  • Teemo's Blinding Dart is now Nearsight, giving him a total of 3 ways of playing with sight (matching Shaco) and combos with his passive. (He can Q and hide.)
  • Warwick's Blood Scent now functions as on orangeish-red 'scent trail' (like Singed's Poison Gas trail) that flows from his prey. This would make it a detection effect, since it would not grant any sight, only information.
  • Vayne's Night Hunter could do something cool.
  • Velkoz have True Sight on his ult.

Just thoughts. There's so much Riot could do to make stealth, invis, camo, etc. really interactive and cool! Tons of possibilities!

Kairotic moment10/17/2016, 8:26:59 AM6 votes

Shaco is my main and I can honestly say, these reworks feel lukewarm at best. You seem to be stuck in this idea of making Shaco a support, which is terrible if you ask me. The two parts that I do like from this are his QoL box changes, having health of 6 more akin to a Zyra plant, his % missing damage on his ulti, and his passive in the second rework, although I think it should just be on a shorter duration, be a fear, and not be tied to how much damage he does, and just a similar style to Kha'Zix's passive. Virtually everything else seems random, or just needlessly making him more complicated.

Shaco is not a support. He's a murderous clown that wants nothing more than to spread chaos and death to everyone. All while laughing about it. In what way does that make him seem like someone who would support? I don't particularly like the backstab mechanic now, but in your version it seems pretty bad. 2.77 extra damage for going out of your way to actually attack someone from behind? Just doesn't seem good. Let alone with your q changes. They would see him coming, and you would never get that backstab off unless they chose to run away, but they'd see you, and have more reaction time to stop you from ever hitting them. The E changes seem like more of an attempt to make him a support, and just generally weaker, or at the very least more complicated for complexities sake.

Lastly, the lore you propose seems not fit for Shaco. I'm not saying it's bad, I quite liked it, but it doesn't fit Shaco. As many people know, Shaco is essentially a copycat Joker. He even copies his lines. Like the Joker, Shaco is meant to be unexplained. Where they have no backstory. Their backstory serves no purpose. The only thing a backstory would do for Shaco is essentially make him seem more human. You would understand him, his motivations, and everything else. Shaco is meant to be a demon. The idea of randomness and death. Not an actor driven mad. Take Lovecraft for example. His stories always remained unexplained. Giving you just enough detail to be afraid, and to know, but to never understand. Shaco always seemed like a tip of the hat to that idea. After all, once you understand something, you no longer fear it.

Sorry if it seemed like I was ragging on your idea, I just wanted to give feedback. I think it's amazing that you put so much effort into it, and if nothing else it gets people talking about Shaco. I truly commend you for your work, and think it is amazing. I hope you continue doing this, because I can see you quite enjoy it, why else would you do it for free? Thank you so much for your work. Truly fantastic.

Thanks for reading, and I hope you have a good day!

Edit: I realized this right after posting. The idea of Shaco as a support is even worse than my initial thought. Remember Mordekaiser and when Riot decided his rework was going to make him a melee ADC? Didn't quite go over well. I think you fell for the same problem that Riot did with Mordekaiser. They wanted to make a melee ADC, but didn't have any solid ideas for one. Then came the Mordekaiser rework time, and they realized that Mordekaiser's kit could lend itself to being a melee ADC. What they didn't realize at the time, was that such a thing was not Mordekaiser's identity. It was not his theme, not to mention the overloaded kit that needed to be attached to any notion of a melee ADC.

The same issue is here. You're seeing Shaco as a potential support, not because he is, but that you want to see it. That is a very easy thing to happen, specifically in game design. Some of Shaco's abilities could be changed to be more of a support, but you have to ask yourself if that is truly what Shaco is. After all, a rework is not only about gameplay. A successful rework is about updating their skills to a more healthy and modern version, while keeping the core aspects of what made the champion fun the same, and staying true to the theme and archetype of the champion. It is a very, very hard thing to do. I hope my analysis here helps you in some way, or anyone else thinking about reworks. Anyway, have a nice day, and thank you for reading.

9L9L9L9L9L9L9L10/16/2016, 8:29:57 PM4 votes

Not bad at all. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Dessem10/17/2016, 12:06:02 AM3 votes

So wait, Q makes both him and an ally invisible?

ZglenQa Senpai10/17/2016, 9:16:55 AM2 votes

I've read all this stuff except lore part and the main issue with rework 1 is that you try to make him extremly viable both as ap or ad. And you fail in making any of this two good. Second thing have you thinked why Riot didn't give shaco clone ablity to mimic his main ablities? Reason is one and very simple. Imagine situation shaco ults in late game he uses deceive as clone and flank enemy adc, he burns all his escape mechanics and kill his clone then anyone can easly finish enemy adc. Seems really balanced. Third thing look at all assasins: Akali Diana Evelynn Fizz Katarina Leblanc Khazix LeeSin MasterYi Rengar Riven Shaco Talon Vayne Zed What connects them? Heavy scalling with gold, they all struggle less or more when they get a little behind and have to be played as support / tank if they fail. Let's look at numbers of the rest of Shaco kit.

Backstab: Right now it gives him 20% bonus dmg if atacking from behind. New one gives him with empty eq(!) from 33% up to ~250% of his live bonus dmg. Top number goes heavily down with each offensive item we buy to the moment when standard shaco build deal over 500! dmg less with just deceive, this makes him kind of ekko / fizz threat. Numbers used are 350 ad and lvl 18 with statikk shiv and IE in eq. 500 dmg is ~30% of his total dmg output from burst.

Deceive: Passive nerf to this skill makes him even more useless as AP and giving him ap scalling to crit dmg is forcing him to get close to battle, but why? Why would he do that when he want's his enemys to follow him into traps it's complete opposite to his strategy. Mana costs are high for some reason, not only cutting his snowball potential but also preventing him from being uncatchable. The real problem is CD of this skill if shaco decides to go in he's left without any kind of escape tool for the next 11 seconds.

Shaco is revealed when he is very near enemy units, similar to Oracle Alteration’s warning. Ok that's nice, but what about laning, invades etc. This totaly prevents shaco from ouplaying enemys with smart pathing?

JitB: You can't make champion viable in both ways. This reminds me of old Tristana when her W,E,R had only ap scalling, she was totally useless unless you grabbed item 3031 and old item 3046 . While the AP one was just terrible in everysingle aspect unless you grabbed dfg so you could delete anyone from the map with combo. Similar to deceive mana cost is high to prevent shaco from box stacking in the early game. While i like the cdr change at closer look it's OP af.

Two shiv: Not much to say coz there are no changes except mana cost and some dmg buff for early.

Hallucinate: Like I said at the begining this change is dumb becouse of how broken it is.

Rework 2. There's not much to say just becouse it's bunch of ideas in an infographic and without numbers or at least info flat / % it's hard to say is it good or bad idea. I like the passive idea but it require to power shift backstab.

Weathered10/16/2016, 8:54:46 PM2 votes
thicc as fuk10/16/2016, 11:27:54 PM2 votes

As a long time Shaco enthusiast for multiple seasons and a Shaco OTP in ranked. I enjoy these proposed changes. (Both rework 1 and 2 have so many good elements I can't choose between the two.) Most of all I enjoy his lore. It's really well written and I like the character you created with this lore.

I really hope Riot takes a long hard look over everything in here before they touch the champion I know and love. He deserves that at the very least.

Gildarzt10/17/2016, 2:22:40 PM2 votes

As a Shaco main I just can say, "great work!" But I have a couple ideas that maybe could be interesting.

First:

W, I don't like the idea of zyra's plants to shaco because I think it could be insane mechanics if you put a few together. As we know box takes two seconds to become invisible, here my ideas:

A) This "cast time" reduces 0.5 second per level, so at level 5 the "cast time" is 0. You could use in Team fight and it would be a great cc, maybe too hard (1.5 area fear for a basic ability could be insane) so, here my second idea.

B) During this "cast time" you could reactivate the W to make the box explodes. It deals X damage (I dont know the value) and apply the half of the fear duration (0.75 at lv5) in a reduced area (more than the normal one) or apply the fear to the closest enemy champion.

I like this second option because I think it would give a shaco a great mechanic to go in, apply cc, kill someone and leave.

Second:

E: I have more than 2k games with shaco I can say that, for me, E doesn't represents Shaco. Is just a point and click ability that does a lot of damage in late and apply permaslow. The enemies can't do anything to avoid and takes free damage. With ap shaco is even more unbalanced.

My change: Change this one for a new dash, teleport, jump, something. What do I pretend with this change?, make him an assasin with real mobility. Right now Shaco doesn't have real mobility in team fights, he go in with his Q and then he has no scape. I want give him a weapon to "dance" over the teamfight (like yasuo, but no so mobile :P). I don't care about the damage, even if this ability doesn't do any damage, maybe it could give 0,5 second steals instead.

The main goal is that shaco has an ability like Ekko's E that give him (with a proper cdr) the change to be a real hight mobility assasin.

What do you think?

pd: sorry for bad English, not my mature language >.<

MunchCrunchLunch10/17/2016, 9:30:41 AM1 votes

when they rework champions. they usually. massively overhawul them and most of their abilities aren't even similar. i think ryze is an exception where two abilities still exist but what i saw in that rework suggestion seemed more like a minor class update malzahar kind of rework instead of a full vgu considering what they want is a full vgu for shaco

Psi2110/18/2016, 9:32:28 PM1 votes

Just noticed your Name AD EZ.

AP EZ is just as good.

Hex P belt makes AP EZ even more amazing.

I don't think you really do explore concerns. Thankfully I am admittedly certain that Riot will not consider your ill thought of nerfs.

KLS Shaconly 10/17/2016, 11:18:59 PM1 votes

Very clean post and good ideas, you even talked about the lore of the champion.

I personally think Shaco is just fine as a champion, he's endured the test of time and while he definitely has some game play issues mostly revolving around how to balance stealth champions with the existence of item 2043 and a ton of bugs Khazix he has, from weird multiple box interactions to inconsistencies in the clone and the crit following his Q.

In my opinion he mostly needs QoL changes and bugfixes, maybe some kit changes as to make him work with the proposed stealth changes riot has announced.

What I'm afraid however is that riot will mess him up at one point or another, they have recently stated that Shaco has very oppressive level 3 ganks, and while he has better ganks than some junglers Graves he really relies on setup from his laners because he has only 2 forms of CC, his box and his E slow, the box has a 2 full second charge time before it springs open and fears and his E is not a strong slow early on, heck he doesn't even have a gap closer once he's in the gank as he needs to use Deceive to get into it, the other guy uses his mobility/summoner 4 and he's out of the gank because he jumped over the box and Shaco can't follow up. Most meta junglers Elise RekSai LeeSin have better level 3 ganks than Shaco like Elise.

Riot should contact high elo Shaco players like RexRequired (1936 1948), Lucent Shaco, Jungle Demon (ScrubRogue), Extreme Person, they have different playstyles and can orient Riot on the different forms Shaco can be played like AP, AD assassin, DPS Bruiser, etc.

Iźuku Midoriya10/18/2016, 1:18:16 AM1 votes

I myself am a very big Shaco player, I got him to level 7 very quickly but also am a fan of Akali Vayne Talon

So first off I would like to say, amazing job with this entire post and all the work you have put into it, it really shows!

Rework 1 - thoughts I really enjoyed reading all of your thoughts about changing his kite and really liked how you put actual reasoning behind why you did it. The one minor thing I didnt like was how you can auto your clone just because I feel like you may accidentally screw yourself over by doing it. I also like how his lore has an actual reason and its not just a mystery in where he came from.

Rework 2 - thoughts I read through this post a couple days ago but for the most part I found it enjoyable to read.

Overhaul - thoughts This is the main part of why I am commenting. I am glad that someone finally sat down, took the time, and planned out invisibility in game. I get how riot is trying to make the game better by targeting the things that are lackluster but by doing so it feels almost like bandage fixes and not so much individual changes for the overall better.

Lets say everyone is full build and there is a Shaco on the enemy team. I am playing Alistar and have all my 6 items. All of a sudden Shaco pops out of no where and kills my adc and then he has time to q away. What am I supposed to do, sell 1 of my items for a pinkward? But then I am down an item compared to everyone else on the enemy team. This is just a small thing I never understood in the game. Sure you have the trinket lens but it does not completely reveal them. Overall this is a minor thing I hope riot changes.

Feedback - thoughts What are your thoughts on this? What do you like? What do you hate? What would you change? What do you think we failed to consider?

I really like the entire rework that you have been working so hard on. I really like how its not just, "change this and that cause it might work" its been carefully planned out. I dont hate anything entirely however I feel like some of the numbers should be changed like for example the boxes lasting 120 seconds sounds kind of strong but we wont know until it is brought into game.

My own thoughts I love Shaco . There are so many things that separate him from other assassins likeRengar Khazix. The first thing I love about him is that he has such a large range of playstyles and build paths that really separate him from the rest. He can build, ap, ad, tank, bruiser, essentially anything your team would need and this is why I love him as a champ. It allows for the player to change how they play him. A big piss off when playing is lets say the enemy team is pushing out inhib turrets mid and they have 3 pink wards placed. What can you really do as shaco in this case? Maybe its a dumb question but lets say it was just the enemy bot lane pushing bot tower but they are sitting on a pink. If that thing wasnt there you could easily q in and most likely kill the enemy adc if not get summoner 4 summoner 7 and make them back off and think twice. Another thing is that he just has so much outplay potential in his kit, maybe it does not seem like much but when you outplay someone with shaco by messing them up with a clone or you were able to place your box at the right time and right spot, it feels amazing and I hope that is also kept.

This champion, he brings a psychological factor to the rift. If this guy is in game, it will strike fear into the hearts of those who have the misfortune of pushing when shaco is around. And maybe thats what stealth in League of Legends should keep. I feel like he should still have that in his kit because playing around the fact that Shaco could be right behind you at that moment is terrifying.

I am also glad that you are trying to make it so that if he falls behind he can catch up. Thats kind of a major thing too.

Overall I really love Shaco and I want him to be changed for the better and not just thrown away if his rework fails but at the same time, I want him to be not broken so that he wont be banned everygame.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

thicc as fuk10/18/2016, 11:26:57 AM1 votes

I'd like to add that I'm not the biggest fan of the support thing but the rest of it was good.

Psi2110/18/2016, 9:14:48 PM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AD Ezreal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dnxR87rR,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-16T20:22:09.759+0000)

EDIT:

Bonus Reductionist "Rework" -- An attempt to address Shaco's biggest issues with as few changes as possible (Explanations here):

  1. Change Shaco's passive to deal flat damage / level instead of a percentage of his bonus AD

  2. Boxes are placed instantly. Boxes have 6 hp and take damage according to this chart:

Abilities and Ranged basic attacks deal 2 damage

Melee basic attacks deal 3 damage

Smite deals 6 damage

  1. If Shaco's ult is out when he dies, it explodes instantly but deals 50% damage. Shaco's clone leash radius is visible to him, and the clone disappears in a puff of orange smoke to reappear next to Shaco if it leaves the radius.

Your Passive change kills AP shaco off.

Specifically his Two hand shiv damage done to a champ with their back turned to him.

And you are ignore the bug from his passive that allows AP Shaco to do more damage with current items not mention in your post.

Are you sure you play enough Shaco?

I don't agree with your 3rd change either. This also nerfs AP shaco.

If all you care about is AD Shaco then your aren't for the health of Shaco. You are selfishly changing him into what you want.

Seriously taking the fun out a champ I hold dear. And AP Shaco when played shows so much more skill from the player.

rtbf22561824110/16/2016, 11:04:32 PM1 votes

I wish they'd just make him less of a coward. HIs my no.1 hated champion for that.

I mean seriously..

Passive:Literally stabs you in the back for increased damage.

Q:super long free flash invisibility that makes chasing him impossible and allows him to hit and run away with daggers.

W:A box to block off a chase route completely.

E:Poison and a dagger that can be combined with E for hit and run.

R:Turns a 1v1 into a 1v2 and "rewards" the opponent by exploding for more damage if they manage to kill one.

His entire kit is made so he can run away or 1v2 you.