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Why can't Riot create a personal ELO ladder system?

Kraythax··3 votes·469 views

They have a mountain of data on players, KDA, Kill participation, damage dealt/taken/mitigated, wards placed, objectives taken and many more items but instead of an individual ELO ranking system they have a crap system that drives people out of the game. I know 5 people PERSONALLY who have played the game and have, after some time, quit because they cant climb. They have become infinitely better at the game, at the mechanics, at warding but it only takes one person on the other team Smurfing from their diamond, or one Jinx that thinks she should tank the tower and minion waves ... repeatedly, and blame the Jungle of course, to throw the game. Your ranking drops not because you but because of others. Its driving people out of the game, me included. I really have little desire to play now as I stated in another thread.

I have 2 mathematicians that work with me on predictive analytics of real life events with a LOT less data and they have both played league and they don't know why Riot has this system that punishes players for the actions of some random feeder. "Its not that hard," they say, "to create a real predictive analytics system for ranking players." So I can only conclude that Riot doesn't want to.

Why?

13 Comments

Cocho3 votes

When it comes down to it, after decently sized sample. Lets say 100 games.

If a player cant climb, its because of something they're doing, or not doing.

You can either win or lose. The player's team doesn't play into it as much after many games because both sides will always have just random players. It's going to be 2 teams of similarly skilled players in most of the games. In that sense, it is a controlled variable.

You can throw out the games that were won/lost from smurfs and trolls on either team, and you'll still have plenty of winnable games that were up to the individual player and their performance.

This is why year after year, the same players can climb back to higher elos, their previous ranks, and never get permanently stuck at another elo.

I cant quite get into diamond 4. I've lost my promos into them, but I've made another account for practice, and I easily made it back to diamond 5.

The stats of the game doesn't tell the whole story. Small things can win or lose you games, and they wont show up or be obvious from looking at stats.

Things like pressuring your laner, pressure on other lanes, making laners back, pinging, shotcalling, great rotations, zoning people in teamfights, etc. Aren't as obvious from just looking at stats. But these things win games.

Tormentula2 votes

Because KDA isn't the end all be all factor on whether or not you're the win condition or lose condition.

Players get frustrated with their Elo all the time because of both, teammates and themselves. What you described are players giving up because they're Elo hell believers when the only constant factor (something you mathmaticitions overlooked) is theirselves.

As for why riot never added this system, its because we shouldnt reward the 12/0 300 CS tryn that throws the game 1v5ing and was the primary reason for the defeat screen. We reward based on the victory screen, and whether you carried or played like shit, you existing contributes to winning (even if feeding, giving shut down gold and holding lanes while riding your teams backpack).

Kraythax1 votes

{quoted}

Because KDA isn't the end all be all factor on whether or not you're the win condition or lose condition.

Players get frustrated with their Elo all the time because of both, teammates and themselves. What you described are players giving up because they're Elo hell believers when the only constant factor (something you mathmaticitions overlooked) is theirselves.

As for why riot never added this system, its because we shouldnt reward the 12/0 300 CS tryn that throws the game 1v5ing and was the primary reason for the defeat screen. We reward based on the victory screen, and whether you carried or played like shit, you existing contributes to winning (even if feeding, giving shut down gold and holding lanes while riding your teams backpack).

Why did you post that. I never said it should be based on KDA. I said the opposite. Please read past the title.

Tormentula1 votes

You want a system that doesn't punish players for being held down by bad players.

I just assumed KDA and CS was your perspective on what a "good player" is because anything else contradicts your entire argument. There's no system that can tell "performance held down", it'd be like having a system dedicated to proving who's opinion is better (or in this case, who's shot calling was better) and there is no variable, be it numbers, that can single that decision of whether or not a player deserves to lose/gain LP in a "personal elo aka not the elo hell I think I don't deserve".

You say your mathematicians have an "easy solution" and that they have no clue why riot is using the system they have, yet none of them, or you, gave evidence and predictions on how, why, and what this unknown better system accomplishes, but rather just claim its better without context.

I posted that, because it's not wrong. You and your buddies are still just players that are frustrated in the ranks you're currently in and rather than looking at the constant factor that is yourselves, you think the system is just wack and want it changed. Is doesn't take rocket science or any mathematician to acknowledge that.

Beas7ie2 votes

{quoted}

Because KDA isn't the end all be all factor on whether or not you're the win condition or lose condition.

Players get frustrated with their Elo all the time because of both, teammates and themselves. What you described are players giving up because they're Elo hell believers when the only constant factor (something you mathmaticitions overlooked) is theirselves.

As for why riot never added this system, its because we shouldnt reward the 12/0 300 CS tryn that throws the game 1v5ing and was the primary reason for the defeat screen. We reward based on the victory screen, and whether you carried or played like shit, you existing contributes to winning (even if feeding, giving shut down gold and holding lanes while riding your teams backpack).

But their system should be able to pick up on more than just K/D/A. KDA should be a factor, but other things can come into play like towers, wards dropped, CS, total damage dealt, tanked, etc. Jungle creeps and other objectives like Baron, Dragons and what not.

The hard thing is that there really is not automated system that can factor in "skillful play" in instances where a full health stacked cho with Stoneplate cheese ready "herds" the enemy ADC into a trap set by his other teammates. Or skillful zoning by MISSING skillshots, such as say using a Cho Q to get enemies to have to move into range of some good Jhin ult shots in order to not get knocked up.

A good individual system would help those of us who play top lane which really isn't very influential right now with the "League of ADC" meta . Go 3/0 and get the turret. Good job, but you're still going to lose because your bot fed their Vayne 4 kills and here she comes now.

Tormentula1 votes

Sure bot lane fed vayne 4 kills, but is that really an excuse to say "I'm more deserving of the rank then they are and they keep me down?"

To elaborate, if I'm the jg and I see bot lane feeding a vayne, I'm shutting that shit down. If I'm top, I'm looking for a TP roam or walking down and tping back top. If I'm mid I'm heading down there when my jungler is on that side of the map and telling them to follow me. If I'm the ADC or support well shit I'm just bad I suppose.

These are the things that "personal elo" doesn't really account for... what the system would have to do to make you properly represented as a player, is identify how well you can turn a losing situation, into a winning situation. That's the problem, all the other stuff would mostly just be grades (S for KDA, CS, objectives, wards, etc) and even that is sometimes inaccurate.

Higher elo climbs out of their ranks and never gets stuck in their ranks until they reach their skillceiling because they can turn a feeding their ass off team into a win condition with the right moves. How does any personal system statistically factor this in a win/lose game? And given the options I gave for that scenario (these aren't definite options, just examples of open windows to look for) , does that mean everybody is stuck because their team is bad when they can twist a game like that, relating to the question "is this system needed over what we have now".

Keep in mind I'm not targeting you personally in this post, I'm just giving another explaination of:

The hard thing is that there really is not automated system that can factor in "skillful play"

Beas7ie1 votes

{quoted}

Sure bot lane fed vayne 4 kills, but is that really an excuse to say "I'm more deserving of the rank then they are and they keep me down?"

To elaborate, if I'm the jg and I see bot lane feeding a vayne, I'm shutting that shit down. If I'm top, I'm looking for a TP roam or walking down and tping back top. If I'm mid I'm heading down there when my jungler is on that side of the map and telling them to follow me. If I'm the ADC or support well shit I'm just bad I suppose.

These are the things that "personal elo" doesn't really account for... what the system would have to do to make you properly represented as a player, is identify how well you can turn a losing situation, into a winning situation. That's the problem, all the other stuff would mostly just be grades (S for KDA, CS, objectives, wards, etc) and even that is sometimes inaccurate.

Higher elo climbs out of their ranks and never gets stuck in their ranks until they reach their skillceiling because they can turn a feeding their ass off team into a win condition with the right moves. How does any personal system statistically factor this in a win/lose game? And given the options I gave for that scenario (these aren't definite options, just examples of open windows to look for) , does that mean everybody is stuck because their team is bad when they can twist a game like that, relating to the question "is this system needed over what we have now".

Keep in mind I'm not targeting you personally in this post, I'm just giving another explaination of:

If they feed 4 kills that easily then "Yes", someone probably could have an argument for saying they're more deserving of a higher rank but they have teammates keeping them down.

Sure a good jungler could probably shut the feeding down if they coordinate with the rest of the team, but it's MUCH harder for a top laner. Can you make a play with a good teleport roam? You certainly can, but while you were down bot taking care of that Vayne the enemy Nasus you were laning against and did a good job of keeping in check just got a bunch of free Q stacks and took out your tower.

Takazaki2 votes

why has no one said git gud

this thread has git gud written all over it.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

The best way, would be to remove Solo Que and replace it with pure 5v5 teams. Then you can't cry about your teammates.

Beas7ie1 votes

{quoted}

The best way, would be to remove Solo Que and replace it with pure 5v5 teams. Then you can't cry about your teammates.

But some of us are so repulsive we can't even get friends on the internet. :(

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Rough.

Kraythax1 votes

{quoted}

But some of us are so repulsive we can't even get friends on the internet. :(

And some of us are out making a living and working and don't have mommy's basement and her internet to sit in to play league all day and make "internet friends." Most of us with such responsibilities, also, don't wish to make "internet friends". And as a point of order neither the suggestion nor the snippy response answers the OP.

jwebb01131 votes

just curious question to the OP... what rank are you?

cuz i know plenty of people who climb to diamond every season regardless of all the bad teammates. if you cant climb then you arent good enough to be out of that elo/tier/mmr/rank

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