Watched the Video of Faker meets Ekko.

Droogzy·6/4/2015, 4:20:26 AM·58 votes·4,771 views

13:36 into the video

"Really explosive damage, with W or his ult, plus now he has huge survivability which has always been a weak point for assassins."

"So basically, all the advantages of an assassin, without any of the drawbacks of an assassin."

(Subtitles translations)

I think for me this sums up my frustration with Ekko and I'm gonna assume for many others as well, this is just an honest question I have, why is an assassin allowed to have such an incredibly high level of survivability?

Nevermind the ult cost. Nevermind the massive damage it does. Nevermind the insane AP ratio he has. I can accept that, he is an assassin, assassins are suppose to make quick work of his enemies, I can get behind that no problem.

But why on top of that is he capable of innate healing with the ultimate (On top of an AoE nuke) and a shield which correct me if I'm wrong, but has the highest AP scaling for a shield in the game now? It just seems you took the frustration of playing against a Zed and LeBlanc with their extended level of safety and twisted it into a new type of champion.

Despite that however, I can say I can get behind healing aspect of the ultimate, he goes back in time and thus reverses some of the damage done to him, thematically, it does make sense...but that in combination with an AoE nuke and no mana cost?

So why is it in the midst of discussion about the unhealthy level of safety that Zed and LeBlanc have (granted Zed's got knocked down a peg effectively and LeBlanc is the next target), you release another champion that essentially exemplifies this problem?

I'm not mad, I'm not raging, I've seen both good Ekko's and bad Ekko's. I will digress, I've yet to play as him, and usually when I do start playing a champion, that's how I usually start to understand how to play against them.

But its just an observation I have noticed playing against/for Ekko that he just exemplifies some of the biggest problems as far as player interaction goes...but yet he was released as so anyways.

Honest question, does the champion development team pay attention to the board in their decision making for champion development?

Not trying to be insulting... I'm just trying to get a bearing as to how this champion came about despite all this discussion we've seen on the board about safety in relationship to damage output and it seems Ekko is on the rather overbearing side and falls more in line with the likes of LeBlanc and Zed before his 1 second delay added onto his nerf. I know boards are only considered to be a very high minority of the population of LoL, but nonetheless, the discussion should be taken into consideration.

Hell, I was watching an LCS, I can't remember what interview or what Riot employee interviewer said it, but Ekko came up in the discussion and even the Riot employee hinted rather strongly he thinks Ekko is currently in an over tuned state.

For me though this led to some thinking about champion design, I'm curious to know how some of the process of champion ability selection takes place with those that have intensive survivability. When I thought about it, I realized that there exists champions which had some level of invincibility/massive healing built into their kit, are further complemented by healing from other sources, specifically Kayle and Tryndmere.

For me, I'm just curious, is the pairing of invincibility/survivability with healing something that is seen as a healthy mechanic? I guess at first glance to me, if a champion has some form of intensive survivability, whatever it is, trades it off for little healing in other abilities, but this doesn't necessary seem to be the case for some champion. And funny enough Tryndmere and Kayle have also been deemed as being frustrating to play against at time.

I'm heading to bed now, so I won't be responding until morning, I would appreciate it being civilized in the meantime.

78 Comments

vC48YNoGbJ6/4/2015, 4:25:47 AM20 votes

Do you even read boards? Ekko is widely despised by those who don't play him and even some who do haha. My biggest question is why champions are released severely under or overpowered. Are PBE players just too nice to give actually useful criticism, or are their criticisms ignored? That's my question.

MrBuffington6/4/2015, 3:59:05 PM6 votes

I think it's easy to isolate elements of a champions kit and criticize their use in conjunction, without looking at the champion as a whole, and where they fit in the game. Ekko isn't meant to be LeBlanc or Zed, the fact that he does currently have high damage is a result of overtuning, which is very common and generally non-intentional simply because Riots play test groups are much smaller than the entire player base. When Riot says Ekko does well in extended engages, really what they're saying is Ekko (should) not have the burst to one shot people the way Zed or LeBlanc can, and thus is given tools for prolonged engagements.

As far as pairing of mechanics, it depends on execution and not, again, just listing aspects of a champions kit. Ekko more or less has the same invulnerability that Master Yi does during alpha strike, or that Maokai does during twisted advance, and both those champions have strong healing not tied to an ultimate. Kayle and Tryndamere ult are unfair comparisons because of the duration, moreover their heals are also not tied to an ultimate. You can argue Fiddlesticks and Warwick have a split second of untargetability when they ult, and their healing is some of the strongest in the game. Heck, just listing elements of a champions kit, Bard technically has invulnerability with his ult and has healing.

My point here is it's easy to spin arguments if you're just listing off ambient qualities of a champion, but you have to look at them as a whole and how they function and interact in a game to actually understand them. I don't think, from a design perspective, the question is whether or not something is unhealthy, it's how those elements can be tuned in a way that makes them healthy or not, and whether that's valuable for the game.

For the record, I think Ekkos numbers are overtuned, but I don't think there is an inherent issue with what his kit brings to the game.

Old Man Teeto6/4/2015, 11:33:16 AM6 votes

Ekko is overtuned.

He's far more reliable than he looks like on paper, with enough additional power tacked on designed to reward players for proper execution.

Since the actual execution is far easier, that extra power is overkill. I feel Ekko is similar to Elise where she had extra strengths in her kit that weren't needed and slowly trimmed back.

Rebonack6/4/2015, 3:04:13 PM5 votes

I think it's worth pointing out that OLD Eve was the original Skirmisher.

Much lower burst/sustained damage than other champions in her class? Check.

High mobility and very slippery? Check.

Hard CC? Check.

Giant heal on her no-cost Ult? Check.

Their play style was pretty similar, too. Dive in, chunk someone, back off to wait on cooldowns, dive back in, get healed up.

And we all remember what happened to OLD Eve, right?

Lost In Time6/4/2015, 5:10:36 AM4 votes

Ekko's damage is exceptionally sub-par and unreliable for an assassin.

I can build glass cannon and still get out-damage by a two damage item Nocturne. Or any ADC. Or any other assassin.

This is what he trades for utility. He is, basically, the Ashe of assassins. Yeah, he'll do damage but almost anyone in the same class can do it better.

Melledoneus6/4/2015, 2:05:45 PM3 votes

{quoted}

13:36 into the video

"Really explosive damage, with W or his ult, plus now he has huge survivability which has always been a weak point for assassins."

"So basically, all the advantages of an assassin, without any of the drawbacks of an assassin."

(Subtitles translations)

I think for me this sums up my frustration with Ekko and I'm gonna assume for many others as well, this is just an honest question I have, why is an assassin allowed to have such an incredibly high level of survivability?

Nevermind the ult cost. Nevermind the massive damage it does. Nevermind the insane AP ratio he has. I can accept that, he is an assassin, assassins are suppose to make quick work of his enemies, I can get behind that no problem.

But why on top of that is he capable of innate healing with the ultimate (On top of an AoE nuke) and a shield which correct me if I'm wrong, but has the highest AP scaling for a shield in the game now? It just seems you took the frustration of playing against a Zed and LeBlanc with their extended level of safety and twisted it into a new type of champion.

Despite that however, I can say I can get behind healing aspect of the ultimate, he goes back in time and thus reverses some of the damage done to him, thematically, it does make sense...but that in combination with an AoE nuke and no mana cost?

So why is it in the midst of discussion about the unhealthy level of safety that Zed and LeBlanc have (granted Zed's got knocked down a peg effectively and LeBlanc is the next target), you release another champion that essentially exemplifies this problem?

I'm not mad, I'm not raging, I've seen both good Ekko's and bad Ekko's. I will digress, I've yet to play as him, and usually when I do start playing a champion, that's how I usually start to understand how to play against them.

But its just an observation I have noticed playing against/for Ekko that he just exemplifies some of the biggest problems as far as player interaction goes...but yet he was released as so anyways.

Honest question, does the champion development team pay attention to the board in their decision making for champion development?

Not trying to be insulting... I'm just trying to get a bearing as to how this champion came about despite all this discussion we've seen on the board about safety in relationship to damage output and it seems Ekko is on the rather overbearing side and falls more in line with the likes of LeBlanc and Zed before his 1 second delay added onto his nerf. I know boards are only considered to be a very high minority of the population of LoL, but nonetheless, the discussion should be taken into consideration.

Hell, I was watching an LCS, I can't remember what interview or what Riot employee interviewer said it, but Ekko came up in the discussion and even the Riot employee hinted rather strongly he thinks Ekko is currently in an over tuned state.

For me though this led to some thinking about champion design, I'm curious to know how some of the process of champion ability selection takes place with those that have intensive survivability. When I thought about it, I realized that there exists champions which had some level of invincibility/massive healing built into their kit, are further complemented by healing from other sources, specifically Kayle and Tryndmere.

For me, I'm just curious, is the pairing of invincibility/survivability with healing something that is seen as a healthy mechanic? I guess at first glance to me, if a champion has some form of intensive survivability, whatever it is, trades it off for little healing in other abilities, but this doesn't necessary seem to be the case for some champion. And funny enough Tryndmere and Kayle have also been deemed as being frustrating to play against at time.

I'm heading to bed now, so I won't be responding until morning, I would appreciate it being civilized in the meantime.

The nerf to Luden's should hit his burst potential a bit, but I have a question for Riot.

Why the hell does Ekko have more base MR stats than every tank in the game? Seriously, check his stats.

Also, his burst potential is literally what Riot tried to avoid with their "utility assassin" gimmick. Sure, let him do damage. But make his rotation a little less damaging, since the CC is high enough as is.

PerishSoftly6/4/2015, 6:54:53 PM1 votes

There are two shields that out-scale Ekko's, neither of which have the CC that his do.

LeeSin has a 200+80% AP shield that shields two targets for a total distributed shield of 400+160% AP. Additionally, it's a gap-close/escape that can target wards and minions.

Shen Shields his target for up to 800 + 135% AP and global teleports, but doesn't shield himself.