About Cassiopeia...

Kıng Boo··51 votes·2,810 views

In my opinion, Cassiopeia is slowly turning into what you did to Evelynn after you severely gutted her a few seasons ago, to the point where you were reported for playing her. She's barely relevant in laning phase where you can only farm and pray you don't get ganked or die, because if you do, you might as well just leave the game and not weigh down your team.

If Cass doesn't get ahead, she's just a stun bot then fodder for the enemy team, especially with the gutting of her passive hampering her powerspikes. Her E is meant to be spammed sure, but you can only cast four or five Twin Fangs until you completely drain yourself of your mana and become an open target for retaliation.

You admitted yourselves that Cass is an extremely bad spot but...it just seems you're ignoring her presence entirely.

I feel like something as small as gaining x amount of passive stacks upon assisting or killing an enemy champion (maybe less stacks if it's an assist). It'd certainly be helpful, and allows her to hopefully gain back some relevance should she fall behind in a game.

Edit:

As I thought about other possible changes, you could make Cass less reliant on E, and instead give more possible combinations.

Here's what I'm thinking: Cass' Q does poison damage over time. However, should she strike a poisoned enemy with her E, they will receive all of the DoT damage in one instance. Her Q's poison also no longer resets her E's cooldown.

Cass' W would allow her to do what she does now, if you're hit by Miasma, Cass can repeatedly cast E as long as you're in the Miasma field.

Of course, there's dozens of other ideas, but I just thought these would also be interesting.

38 Comments

Sir Tiddles24 votes

Her current power level/viability is not my sticking point here. It's completely irrelevant to the major FCK YOU Riot gave to Cass. This abomination is not Cassiopeia, it is Riot shoehorning her into some acid trip vision of a completely different champion. And then after she was mutilated from the champion I mained since day one, from the first champion I bought, from the first champion I loved enough to spend real dollars on for a skin -- after completely changing everything about her strengths and weaknesses and the REASONS why I loved her, Riot (ie, Stashu) dropped off the face of the fcking planet and said screw you guys I don't give a crap about your favorite champion.

  1. The passive mini-game is not fun, and only serves to shackle her for the majority of most games, if not the entirety. Being a hyper carry means after 3 items no matter what you are doing some damage. Being Cass after 3 items means you still do shit until you have finished the 45 minute mini-game. And PS Riot, her win rate after 45 minutes is still not impressive. The passive must go. It doesn't fit into her theme at all. Now she is afk farm for 45 minutes because that is what Stashu thinks is fun. It isn't.
  2. She was always a slippery, area control, manipulative chick who bided her time until the moment to strike was right. Until Stashu ruined her that is. Now she is a magic damage dealing marksman, without hyperscaling of crit and AS. She went from a champ that felt sneaky and underhanded and manipulative with her playstyle, to a boring as sh*t machine-gun E-spammer. Q and W serve no purpose, and do not feel good to use... but hey, more Es AMIRITE???
  3. Nobody wanted this rework. There were threads with literally hundreds of pages of angry posts saying we did not want this, but they ignored the PBE feedback. They ignored the major sh*t-storm once it went live, and never commented on her again besides "oh yeah, we remember some people didn't like some aspects". When Morde's name was going to be changed to something without metal in it, there were some posts and Riot changed its mind. Why, after so long, has the Cass playerbase not been given the same courtesy? I have not seen a larger negative response to something in this game EVER. Why ignore this?
  4. The redone skins are horrible. I don't care much about the others, but the artwork for the redone Desperada skin is the most disgusting thing in this game. The old skin was more detailed and interesting, and actually had the markings of the deadly rattler it was supposed to be. There was a lot of negative feedback about this before it went live, and then after, and Riot steadfastly ignores it. I honestly want a refund of my skin because this one is not at all what I paid for. They didn't even give the courtesy of other champs and give a classic Desperada skin.
  5. Most tragically, and most offensively of all my gripes about this poop sandwich, is that Riot has remained silent. I don't even remember the last time I heard Stashu say anything, despite the company line of "of course, if this rework turns out to not work out we are totally open to changing it".

I wish Riot would have done for Cass what they did for other champ reworks where they asked the players what they loved about the identity of the champ and the feeling of the champ. Nothing about this "evolving power" BS is Cass. Nothing about the shackles of a passive, or the machine gun only playstyle is Cass. But I guess this all stems from Riot hating the Cassiopeia playerbase. Well, Riot won. I can't play my favorite champ because this abomination is not her and playing it just makes me sad. And it has nothing at all to do with her current power level or viability

Champion Skin5 votes

Not to mention that the rework didn't fix any of Cass problems or make her easier to balance... so in the end the rework didn't really accomplish much (other then her having too high numbers and gaining some popularity before being thrashed by nerfs)

Also as Cass currently is... there is pretty much no reason to play her... she is like an ADC however she has to pay mana for her "auto attacks" (E) and also need to land a skill shot before being able to "auto attack"... While yes in return she kind of starts of with 2 attack speed and have decent base damage on her "auto attack" even so her squishiness and lack of mobility and range just makes her seem not worth it She just seems like a bad ADC which deals magic damage

And why not just pick someone like Kalista who also kind of have a base damage on her auto attack (Rend has base damage) and stack attack speed... and Kalista can auto attack without landing a skill shot and have better mobility and her utility in the form of her ult is really strong (and she also has a slow and some vision with her sentinels)

Rysophage2 votes

Oh no the poor baby has to land AOE SKILLSHOTS WAAAAH. She has some of the most insane DPS in the entire game she has to be difficult so she's not faceroll like diana or something. I don't know why mana is a problem for so many people. you build tear, then morello's, grail, or even RoA, problem solved. Since her passive practically gives you deathcap, it frees up an item slot so you can build a situational item or something to make your life easier. her lack of mobility is fixed with rylai's and furor boots or you know...good positioning. which is the most important part of playing cassi. and her range is fine considering her damage output.

Sorioku2 votes

This guy's pretty dickish but he's right. Her level 2-3 all in beats any other mid laner. And her passive should be fully stacked around 30 minutes if you even attempted to land a q on someone. She's still in a sub-par spot but definitely not as bad as you guys make it seem.

Hellioning2 votes

Yes, I agree. She has insane damage early if she can use her E a lot.

But that's a big IF, nowadays. Mid lane is full of people who either outrange her, are so mobile it's hard to land poison, or both.

Champion Skin2 votes

There is also the slight problem that using E a lot costs a lot of mana and well you usually don't have that much mana early game

Hellioning2 votes

Also true.

Champion Skin1 votes

Oh yeah her early game is rather strong (though it can be rather taxing on her mana to spam her E so much in all trades so early)

Though that is kind of the problem... as the rework was supposed to make her less oppressive to play against in lane and push her more towards a late game hyper carry... which seems like it obviously failed

Honestly it doesn't really seem like her rework fixed much at all

Her late game DPS is around the same as Ashe... it is slightly higher.... but at the same time her DPS will pretty much be 0 if she misses her Q/W (or runs out of mana in an extended fight or by doing baron or something like that) And not to mention Ashe isn't the greatest late game hyper carry to begin with... so yeah... And Ashe does actually get higher DPS if she has item 3139 as a last "defensive" item

CassioCassiopeia with item 3089 item 3116 item 1310 item 3040 item 3135 item 3157 DPS with E = 1428 (used every 0.5 seconds) DPS with Q = 230 (constantly applied) DPS with W = Rather low damage and hard to apply so hard to judge up time in the end it is probably not very important to Cass overall DPS (other then as an enabler of her E)

AsheAshe with item 3031 item 3046 item 3035 item 3006 item 3072 +defensive item DPS without Q = 880 DPS With Q = 1220

With item 3139 instead of defensive item

DPS without Q = 1115 DPS With Q = 1545

Though of course Cassio also has some advantages over ADC's like not being affected by item 3110 and item 3143

I don't really think Cass is all that bad... I just don't see why you would pick her... While yes she has good damage but so do most other mid laners and most of them deal burst damage which means that even if they are almost killed immediately they can still potentially get of a good amount of damage and they don't have to be close to the enemy for very long to deal their damage like burst mages (Veigar) or assassins (Talon) And there are other mages who have longer ranges and more safety like Azir

Is she supposed to be an early game bully as her mana costs and passive seems to try and work against this?? (Well that was probably the idea anyways)

Champion Skin3 votes

She has some of the most insane DPS in the entire game

Ehh not really well not late game anyways... her damage is around the level of Ashe's damage/DPS and Ashe is an ADC without particularly good steroids or late game damage

Sir Tiddles1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=csFv87x7,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2015-11-03T05:49:21.841+0000)

Ehh not really well not late game anyways... her damage is around the level of Ashe's damage/DPS and Ashe is an ADC without particularly good steroids or late game damage

This. And Ashe doesn't need to land a skillshot to autoattack -- which isn't so bad on the first target, but it hurts when you need to switch targets quickly and you can't because Q and W are on cooldown. Those few seconds are life or death, especially with all the power in E you have to be in closer range to do anything.

But this isn't even my problem -- they can change numbers if she is truly deemed weak (I am not making the case that she is too weak). My problem is that this shit rework is not the Cassiopeia that I loved since day one of playing this game. Her kit is no longer fun, and her Desperada skin looks extremely fugly now. I want both of these changed or refund... Not that Riot responds to anything about Cass, bc FCK U Cass players.

Champion Skin1 votes

My question is... what was the point with the rework... as it doesn't seem to have helped at all or made Cass any more "healthy" or easy to balance Sigh it just seems like the rework was so pointless

MadFuhrer2 votes

So landing a Q and running away felt more satisfying to you? I'm honestly curious because I only played a handful of games with her before the rework and I felt like a giant dick just landing q and running waiting for it to come off cooldown. I can tell you it wasn't fun to play against because, oh shit I got hit by this poison and now i just get to sit helplessly as she runs away at top speed and i'm here dying.

Champion Skin2 votes

Well that is pretty much what most mages do Veigar sits back and toss out his Q all day and sometimes clear the wave with W is needed or use his E to defend himself or combo down the enemy Xerath sits back and pokes with his Q and clears the wave all day long Lux sits back and toss her E at the opponent or just endlessly clears the wave Ziggs just sit back toss Q all day long while clearing the wave with all of his AoE

Pretty much all mages run away after using their main damage abilities.. since they are squishy and vulnerable and can't do much without their abilities anyways

A Miss Fortune10 votes

I think her Q, W, and E needs to be reworked so that they're all relevant poison tools. I don't see why Riot finds poison champions toxic just because you can't tell how much damage it will do a lot of the time, I mean at least you can take in consideration health regen/health pots and the chance for someone to walk up to you and shield or heal you is significantly higher than a burst mage like Leblanc who doesn't use poisons.

Magearna11 votes

I don't see why Riot finds poison champions toxic

You don't? :P

A Miss Fortune7 votes

No? Their damage comes over time and I think an experienced player knows when they will die, but at the least It's not like It's Leblanc with 6 Deathcaps who can burst you down with almost no counterplay. Poison is so much easier to counterplay even after you've already been poisoned.

-You regen health even as you take damage -Your health pots are effective to lower the damage -A form of heal, shield, or something can go off cooldown -An ally can catch up and heal or shield you in time before you die

I'm just saying I would much rather have these factors taken in rather than just flat out get completely mowed down by burst and find poison less toxic.

iamleburk4 votes

woosh lol

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Oh if it was a joke then I got it lol

Magearna1 votes

Haha yeah it was a joke :P

I completely agree with all points you've mentioned though. I'd much rather have relevant poison champions/tools instead of nerfing them while keeping burst champions in a very healthy state.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well if things like damage/Cooldown/mana cost/effects are the same.... then it being a DoT is almost always weaker when compared to instant damage after all it is much more effective to kill the opponent instantly instead of allowing them to heal/shield/zhonyas the damage... or even kill you while the DoTs are killing them (if it was instant/burst damage they would be dead and getting a return kill would be impossible)

gasmask8666 votes

man at this point teemo is more of a poison champ than cassiopea.

Oerba No Naja6 votes

i strongly disagree on destorying q mechanics and synergy with e . lol . the ms from q is just WAY TOO IMPORTANT . and it sensless since you can spam e on teemo and singed 's poisons here is my idea : q with a ap ratio scaling : 40 % 45 % 50 % 55% 65 % and for w : something like + 15 base dmg. i think its fine , dont forget the poison amp on twin fangs ... and , i rather lose a bit from my %ap on passive and get it earlier in the game , Pbe games seems to be rly short :D And i strongly disagree on another rework , i had enough EDIT : doing maths to compare this with the current cassio and the old one would be interresting

Baseball3b5 votes

the whole issue imo is the fact that her E is stuffed to the brim with power. I mean, it's a spammable, targeted nuke with spell vamp, mana refund, and a Dot amp. The whole thing just screams toxic (no pun intended). As it exists right now, her other two non-ultimate spells are useless without her E which just isn't healthy, or fun.

Now, the people talking about how how pre-rework Cass was a pure DoT poison mage are just flat out uninformed. Her identity always involved spamming her E. However, the big difference between now and before the rework, is that she currently lacks interactivity. Pre-rework, she could use her Q and W as effective zoning and poke tools, as well as set ups for her E combo. Now they exist for the sole purpose of allowing her to spam her E, which again, just isn't healthy.

tldr; take out some power from her E (which already comprises most of her power budget) and redistribute it into her Q and W which will smooth out her play style and allow her to receive meaningful buffs/nerfs because as she is now, she's an unfun ball of stats.

Audiomancy5 votes

I don't understand why they didn't just give her Q a scaling ratio instead of just gutting it completely.

Solumindra4 votes

I like how you made a post about how cass is in a bad spot....

Then propose a nerf....

Q does it's dmg pretty quick, I would rather have the reset and MS than some weak "nuke". Not that it would even be a nuke because Q does almost no dmg until 500+ AP....

Khell DarkWolf4 votes

I want to see another rework.

But at this point if we can't get reprieve, I just wish continuous successful Q's on a target would start stacking the poison DoT so it felt more rewarding then having the same pattern of E over and over again.

Cass's current state of feel and playstyle feels nothing like before. Regardless if she is strong or underpowered. And now I got to worry about Miss Fortune's upcoming rework.

just a memory2 votes

We shall see.

Canastus2 votes

Here's your well deserved bump.

You're absolutely right about her issues and how unreliable she has become over the last months. It's beyond me how they didn't get around to revert some of the past nerfs, that's the least they could do in this situation. Instead they're letting her rot for an undetermined period of time. She needs to see some changes, direly.

The Queen Viper2 votes

{quoted}

She's barely relevant in laning phase where you can only farm and pray you don't get ganked or die, because if you do, you might as well just leave the game and not weigh down your team.

She might be a bit weaker than those more frequently played mid champs, however she can still do just fine during the laning phase... also if you know how to play Cass, more often than not it will be your own team that weights you down instead. People still don't know how to play when they have a late game carry in their team.

{quoted}

If Cass doesn't get ahead, she's just a stun bot then fodder for the enemy team, especially with the gutting of her passive hampering her powerspikes.

Nah, she's fine... even when behind, you are still relevant.

{quoted}

I feel like something as small as gaining x amount of passive stacks upon assisting or killing an enemy champion (maybe less stacks if it's an assist). It'd certainly be helpful, and allows her to hopefully gain back some relevance should she fall behind in a game.

Depends. The passive stacks are not the problem though.... they could remove them completely, let Cass start with a full passive and even then it wouldn't help much due to the fact that you need so much raw AP to make the passive worth something.

But sure, they should tweak her somehow.

Champion Skin1 votes

Ehh... well starting with her passive fully stacked... would be kind of pointless... because at that point you might as well give her higher AP ratios?

Example to show what I mean If you have a passive that for instance doubled your AP (however all the AP ratios of the champion was cut in half) then the champion would end up doing the same damage as before and basically have a passive that does nothing (except make Lichbane/Ludens echo stronger or the enemy Veigar's ult)

Mael bro2 votes

So you actually want a late game mage dps carry with an incoming riot buzzword opressive laning phase to become viable? I just think that she rewards learning her gameplay and correctly executing her combos like Xerath Syndra. My opinion is to give complete rework on the snake lady. But since nowadays every rework ends up destroyingMordekaiser or breaking Fiora a champion, i think she's fine where she is.

Champion Skin3 votes

opressive laning phase to become viable

Her "rework" was supposed to fix her oppressive laning phase... making her easier to balance.... it clearly failed miserably

Spoofghoul1 votes

O wait this isnt about Sion

Leu071 votes

Imo, I would like Cass to be a little bit more of an assasin. That's how I picture snakes.

Gooberp1 votes

I've wondered before if a way to help Cass would be to nerf her E reset. Make it scale down from, say, 0.8s to 0.4s as it ranks. This would further cement her role as a lategame carry, significantly hamper her trading power without gutting her lane phase, and give Riot the capacity to buff her elsewhere, like her mana pool/costs. Definitely the least fun thing about playing Cassiopeia is running out of mana when you perform your duties properly in the mid-late game, EVEN WITH a Tear/AA.

I know the old Cass mains liked her as a lane bully, but since Riot insists that they hate that, why does she still have a lane bully kit? Scale the E reset time and she has room to allow so much power to be put back into her.

Rubber Jesus1 votes

I'm only worried about Cass's power spike in the PBE with the new death timers routinely going over 60 seconds at 30 minutes, sometimes up to the 70s. Considering I typically hit 500 stacks around 30 minutes (give or take depending on the game), and the games being shortened to 25-30 minutes, the power spike will come at a point where it is not substantial to the game.

As for power, I typically do not see a huge issue right now with her power. Le Blanc is the only champion that I invariably do poorly against. Zed has gotten much easier after repeat exposure, to the point where he is hungry for kills around level 6-8, as most assassins are, and a simple stun (esp under turret) can easily get a kill. For most, trying to watch their moves and when they time their spells makes it so easy to poke for me. Landing a Q will allow me to dodge most any skill shot. I can zone my opponent to the direction I want them to go with W when a gank arrives.

Of course, I do not build glass cannon Cassiopeia, going on my first back to get item 3070, followed by item 3240. After this, a defensive item is typically needed for maximum poke. item 1057 into item 3001 for AP and item 3191 into item 3157 for AD. item 3136 into item 3151 and/or item 3116 are next. item 3003 when near 750 stacks. item 3135 for maximum penetration (I see what I did there). Her passive gives the Rabadon buff, so it isn't truly needed. Overall, with these items and runes, I will get right around 100 armor and magic resist, 2,000-2,500 health depending on level, 42% penetration, 44 straight penetration after that, and another 20 reduced with Abyssal when I'm in range of my E. Those items make her tankier, and also will take 200 MR down to 52 MR. At 200 MR you are doing 33% of your damage after reduction. At 52 MR I am doing 65% damage after reductions. This effectively doubles my damage. Sure Rabadon's gives you insane AP, but considering her AP ratios are not that high, pure penetration works better. At 110 MR or less, you are dealing true damage on all abilities. The bonus poison damage after landing some E's will make a tank just shred health, especially with Liandry's, and your ult, Zhonya's, plus the added tankiness from items can save you from assassins.

TLDR: If Riot is moving towards games that cap out around 30 minutes, reaching the 500 stack passive (including the average stacks per second on champions and over time) around the 20 minute mark would be ideal.

She's a snake: you need maximum penetration to hit her sweet spot.

I feel her power is in a good spot, even if it doesn't truly capture the essence of poison for me. I don't feel her gameplay of slowly increasing power matches her identity as a character, but that doesn't make it under powered imo.

Sir Tiddles1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rubber Jesus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=csFv87x7,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-11-03T00:21:17.116+0000)

She's a snake: you need maximum penetration to hit her sweet spot.

You know Abyssal reduction happens before % from Void right? There are other posts laying around with in-depth explanations and math, but it is never worth it to get both Abyssal and Void. You get more far more damage from a Deathcap instead of the Abyssal with a Void staff in play. Also it's kind of crazy to not have a Deathcap on a hyperscaling champ.

I feel her power is in a good spot, even if it doesn't truly capture the essence of poison for me. I don't feel her gameplay of slowly increasing power matches her identity as a character, but that doesn't make it under powered imo.

Her win rate and pick/ban rate suggest she is underpowered compared to other mages, but that isn't really the point. Her gameplay not matching her identity and her historical strengths and weaknesses is the real issue.

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