What is the point of the current Ranking system?

A Certain Guy·Sep 19, 2019·3 votes·1,440 views

So, let me get this out of the way real quick: I was gold 4 after a long struggle to get half decent teams in silver 1 and finally broke the barrier and got gold. Continued to try to climb, and i've hit a plateau. Naturally, I went on a losing streak (yes, i took breaks between games when I got frustrated, didnt change anything for the most part.). Some games I lost due to others trolling, some games due to bad players and some we just got outplayed and it was an actually good game. So after my promotion shielding expired, I demoted back down to silver 1. This being said, It dawned on me the moment I was demoted. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

The current ranking system doesn't make any sense. Follow me on this:

If you are gold 4, And are on a losing streak with the shielding on, you are at a severe disadvantage, as opposed to having an advantage of being shielded from demoting down to the lower tier.

Why is this? Because your Physical rank wont be touched, but your MMR still tanks.

Why is this relevant? Well for example, you can be "gold 4" But due to your MMR being trash, you can end up with players not just in silver, but a team of full bronze players. If you climbed to Gold, you should rightfully be playing with and against players of your skill level.

If you are gold 4 but playing with bronze players......why are you not just bronze? The systems defeat the purpose of one another. MMR is one "ladder" and Tiering is another "ladder" entirely. They don't line up. Being "gold 4" is just a fancy title, your MMR is still all that matters as that is what influences your matches.

So the title of this post comes into play here: what is the point of the current ranking system? Your MMR is all that matters.....isn't that just a fancy way of saying "Elo"? I thought this system was meant to abolish the Elo system and improve upon it, but in turn it just turned MMR into Elo. In fact it made climbing harder overall as a result of this since you have to play promotional games in sets of 3 or 5 depending on what you are promoting to.

On top of this, It seems since the systems are not working together at all, the Tiering system is just straight shiny plating on a play border with no actual purpose. This system barely functions when you are actively climbing and making progress. What happens when youre struggling or plateauing?

Well lets get into part 2: Functionality of the system

So, when you climb, you naturally gain elo and maintain decent players/games as a result for your elo (i am now going to say "elo" instead of "MMR" because thats exactly what this is, Elo.) This is passable when climbing steadily and making progress. When youre plateaued or struggling? Well here is where the term "Elo Hell" gets its definition because this is when this system fails hard and falls flat on its face in the most ungraceful manner possible.

If your Elo is lower than your ranking, you naturally have lower quality games if you are actually improving at the game but happen to be losing, and this can add a multitude of other things that bog you down further such as: Trolls, AFK's, Inexperienced players (not their fault but you still gotta deal with them). All of this just snowballs further and further out of control until you have "Gold 4" in Tiering but "Bronze 4" in Elo, which begs the question again: Why am I not just Bronze 4? My Elo is all that matters, so what purpose does this tiering stuff actually serve other than to somehow make climbing even harder for literally no reason?

Some simple fixes that would promote higher quality games (but lower quantity, i.e. queue times would be longer as a result):

Remove Elo entirely from the system and Place people in games based on their actual rank. If you are a gold player, you get put into a game with other gold players with some flex room of say, 1--2 ranks just to keep queue times relatively shorter overall. If you are Gold 4 You can be placed in games with players of silver 3 to Gold 2 as a result. Keeping in mind this would be difficult to balance due to higher ranked players like challenger and there only being a handful of them, you would need some type of system in place to manage that issue because Challenger players dont deserve to wait for 16 hours for 1 match lmao.

Or the other option:

Just accept the elo system as the dominant system (because currently thats exactly what it is) and remove the tiering system entirely like the old ranked system was. I dont think this would be the best or preferred way of doing it but that is an option.

Just had to vent this because the more I actually stopped to think about it the worse the system looked and actually is. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

12 Comments

5050BSSep 19, 20193 votes

None.

I just had a Game in S2 where my jungler was B3 Yi who at 8m was 0/6 and 8 CS. He didnt do camps and just tried to gank over and over feeding lanes.

He was Duo with the Mid laner who was S2 and 75% win rate over ~60 games.

Guess who you will see in gold as a jungler thanks to Riots stupidity.

Kai GuySep 19, 20191 votes

Murder. May I have your permission to comment directly to ya?

SaezioSep 19, 20192 votes

Riot's way of putting it was something along the lines of.

"Due to the nature of the Elo System, half the Player base will see their MMR(or elo) drop during a season even if they improve as players" And also "It feels more rewarding to climb from gold to silver than be in the top 30% compared to the top 45%" (numbers are obviously random)

So, riot based the ranked system on feelings. That's why it's trash. Also, I don't even know how riot are refusing to hard reset MMR and rank after 10 years. Soft resets are just stupid imo. Just hard reset the whole thing once a year and everyone starts with a clean slate.

Kai GuySep 19, 20191 votes

Elo uses pairwise comparison to averages so It blends new players in faster if you have an existing average to compare vs.

Hard resets do not provide a positive. Soft resets bleed out inflation from transient accounts. Hard resets are not ideal if you care about Quality of matches and the ladder will take far longer to readjust to natural averages resulting in higher misplaced accounts.

I can walk you over this with Dice rolls if you want to see for yourself the impact.

Darkdemon653Sep 19, 20191 votes

You get demoted from a tier when your MMR goes too low. So while you certainly can have an MMR that's lower than what it should be for a given rank, the difference is capped.

Kai GuySep 19, 20191 votes

Yea. But the cap is very large for division 4 compared to the rest. Can be an issue with Duoing because you can have higher MMR then a title and lower so you run into fringe cases like a S4 G1 player qued that represent a MMR range of Bronze 2 to Plat 4. An absolutely MASSIVE % of the player base.

This generates mismatches, which are lower quality games.

Darkdemon653Sep 19, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cj2TuryE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-19T21:05:22.916+0000)

Yea. But the cap is very large for division 4 compared to the rest. Can be an issue with Duoing because you can have higher MMR then a title and lower so you run into fringe cases like a S4 G1 player qued that represent a MMR range of Bronze 2 to Plat 4. An absolutely MASSIVE % of the player base.

This generates mismatches, which are lower quality games.

MMR is more indicative of skill than rank is. People of dissimilar ranks can be matched with one another, but people with dissimilar MMRs won't be (ignoring shenanigans with premades).

Kai GuySep 19, 20192 votes

Oh absolutely. Then if you know the distribution model you have an great value for skill gap cuz it uses % values on odds to win. You can take 2 curves for low uncertainty and see the overlap.

If ya dont know the model context is still kinda weak. Some chess sites just gave higher elo to players to get them to stay and play. Folks go to the 1600 starting value site over the 1200 cuz they like bigger numbers. Skill is the same just represented differently.

People are stupid.

On that note I have lost track of the # of mm complaint threads the op does not even know the basics of an Elo system but think their random guesses are law and correct.

A Certain GuySep 20, 20191 votes

The guesses are absolutely correct based on simple observation. You cannot tell me the rank system serves a purpose when the Elo is all that matters. Riot has placed a shiny border over the Elo system and pretend its any different than an elo system. Its a joke that you think the rank system actually matters and furthermore, i didnt complain about the elo system specifically, as you clearly didnt read anything i said and just threw your pseudo-intellectual crap into the chat to act smarter than you actually are.

MY complaint is the fact the Rank system serves no purpose when the elo system underneath is all that actually matters. So why are we not just using the old elo system if thats what were doing anyhow? Cut out the middle man and just use what riot has been hiding for half a decade.

So to quote you, youre absolutely correct:

People are stupid.

Kai GuySep 20, 20191 votes

as you clearly didnt read anything i said

I did. As this comment your replying to is directed to Darkdemon I don't know why you think its gonna be targeting anything in your opening post. Feel free to scroll down to my actual reply to you and by all means if I said something incorrect please let me know. I did read your post, should be clear in the correct response that's the case as I directly address it. Example."Anyhow, you don't end up sitting at B4 games with G4 title"

The guesses are absolutely correct based on simple observation

No they are not. 0 education on a topic results in terrible guesses. Thunderstorms are because the GODS ARE ANGRY!

I am not saying your wrong that the League system serves as a distraction. They very much are just a shiny distraction, I agree with you. That said, they exist for a reason and their job is to give folks benchmarks and give riot wiggle room to make the ranked experience softer for the middle part of the ladder. A more pure Elo systems attitude to folks who sink is "to fucking bad" which is a turn off for a lot of gamers. I have this opinion due to an old red post back in 2013 ish when they shifted to the league system that basically stated their participation in ranked que doubled and dodgers lowered.

The rank system serves a purpose. To keep players engaged. The only positive Elo benefits I know about involve the ability to run a more dramatic K factor with out some one getting a incorrect title because LP moves slower then MMR. Thats something that Riot may or may not do very well. Also To provide a punishment for lobby dodgers with out letting folks sink their MMR to make easier games, something Riot does do.

I tell folks over and over that Titles are a distraction and have 0 value as a metric of skill at high uncertainty. No idea where you got the take away that I think they matter. They exist for player perception.

I am giving you the correct information to the best of my ability and knowledge. I am not trying to mislead Dark, Showing MMR values with no context of what that means is just the same. People would just feel a little better seeing #s between teams being closer. No context on what the values represent results in players still not know what skill expectations they should have. Cuz the values are Arbitrary. You can change your scale, you don't have to use base √10 Like Arpad did. Your system can have the expectations between 1400 vs 1600 be the exact probability that some one else's system would have for 1200 vs 1250. The values don't matter when they are arbitrary its all about the systems rules. All about your Class intervals and how you build them.

Its not "pseudo-intellectual crap" to regurgitate basic knowledge that people should have if they want to discuss a topic. Feel free to call me out if I provided incorrect information as long as you can provide a correction, being wrong is just an opportunity to learn and correct. Still got to say Its tiresome that folks get upset with me to use the terminology and concepts related to the topic. A Normal distribution model is called a normal distribution model. Class intervals and standard deviation are relevant terms for the topic. Probability terms should get used in a conversation about something that involves probability theory. The hell am I supposed to do when folks wanna talk about Elo's system but Rn=Ro+K(W-We) looks like gibberish to them? I don't expect everybody to know this stuff. If there's something that's confusing I am happy to take the time to fill in knowledge or provide some one a link so they can do so on their own time. Instead folks chose to make an attack on my intent.

So why are we not just using the old elo system if thats what were doing anyhow? Cut out the middle man and just use what riot has been hiding for half a decade.

Cuz again it results in player perception + it gives riot room to leave things around that don't result in better matches but do result in popularity and more participation. Folks would get so pissed if they could see the # gap in games generated by Duoing.

The could go back to a "Team Elo". They would just adjust the way they manipulate opinions differently. Hiding it is less work on their end. I personally would like visible scores as I would be able to use that information in discussions with out having to go over theory to explain why I have a viewpoint on a topic a lot of folks are to lazy to even check the wiki page on.

Inkling CommandoSep 19, 20191 votes

ranks are just glorified ego points. you never get matched with players of your ranks and players use their rank to flash their ego and gloat that they are better than you. and then a low rank player pushes just the right buttons to make a high rank player snap and end up losing rank, and ego, which will make them even more toxic.

Kai GuySep 19, 20191 votes

Titles mean nothing with out being accurate. They function as a benchmark, a set goal for players. Top of the ladder is unreachable for most, so having the mini benchmarks of going up X divisions or Tier is a realistic goal for a majority of the player base. It keeps folks engaged.

The issue is, MMR is hidden, Far as I can tell it got rebranded to MMR because people where to stupid to understand why Elo worked for more then chess and how to adapt it for team games. So they use the same concept, gave it a new name and everybody was like. Aight sounds good. (not just riot. Most devs use the term.)

Titles are given dam near instantly. 10 games and BOOM title. Titles are what Players use to grade skill. There is an expected Calibration period, you expect high uncertainty on accounts when they have low Games. Your title is given and changes pretty fast.

Plus Positional MM sets your account to have 5 individual MMR values, makes a title even less accurate when considering how MM interacts with that. (I am not 100% on positional MM existence. They only removed ques and stated Positional MM was something they like. Hell the preseason patch notes implied that Positional MM rolled out to every serverat the start of the season. I cant find confirmation it did, just that that was a stated goal and all Posts by Sap magic are very positive on their view on Positional MM)

You demote from div 4 when you drop into low Div3 or div 4 MMR I believe. Few years out of date from when I had it happen trying to help some friends get out of their MMR. Learned abit about riots system and a lot about how fking hard it is to help friends who refuse to listen.

Anyhow, you don't end up sitting at B4 games with G4 title.

Elo wants to sort skill. it does this off Averages. Your Elo/MMR is a Mean average that represents performance and its only significant when accurate. Comparatively, they are the best systems to use currently. Statistical endeavors that add further complexity run into some real issues for implementation and that's largely because subjective systems are exceedingly difficult to automate with any degree of accuracy.

People are expected to get stuck in a range, its called a class interval. You don't break away from the standard deviation expectations for that class you don't go up or down from that range. The end goal is to try and separate skill accurately enough so that properly placed accounts do not get used by MM to build games where a players Strong performances are outclassed by an enemies weak performance's.

There is no # of games that will make you climb unless your able to break out of the standard deviation. Time to top for an average skilled player is by definition eternity.