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Garen needs a rework (hear me out)

420 Meat Sock 69·2/24/2016, 6:47:26 PM·1 votes·1,206 views

Garen Garen, a champion typically directed towards and used by new players because of his low ip cost and the simplicity of his kit. The meta and the game itself has changed quite a bit, but not so much Garen along with a lot of the older and more simplistic champions like Annie Annie and Chogath Cho'Gath. Garen Garen falls into the category of champions that I don't refer to as tanks or bruisers, but rather as a one man team. Just like Chogath Cho'Gath, and Volibear Volibear, who all offer cc, high single target and AoE damage, AND executes, all while taking minimalistic damage with incredible sustain (they aren't very hard to play either). Another champion that could fit this category is TahmKench Tahm Kench, although he doesn't have an execute, he still has very high base damage, high scaling ratios, and damage that scales with health. These champions with only one damage item, such as item 3071 Black Cleaver for Garen Garen and Volibear Volibear, and item 3027 RoA/Abyssal item 3001 for Chogath Cho'Gath and TahmKench Tahm Kench, and then building tanky from there on out can feel like you're trying to kill a raid boss in the late game. Anyways, back to Garen Garen, if Garen really is meant for newer players to help them learn the basics of the game, you should rework him along with many of the other simpler champions to help teach new players instead of handicapping them. Garen's kit is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. He has a passive item 3083 Warmogs, no mana pool, an auto attack reset that grants movement speed, deals bonus damage, and silences the target, a built in damage reduction spell, and an execute that can deal true damage. It's not just as simple as "It's OP" or "As long as they don't get fed", the players that get used to Garen and this kind of play style that offers so much utility, cc, base damage, scaling, and tankiness will handicap them while playing other champions with a higher skill cap.

~~ Like DrMundo Dr. Mundo, Teemo Teemo Veigar Veigar, MasterYi Master Yi,XinZhao Xin Zhao, and Soraka Soraka.~~

I think that Garen Garen's kit can remain the same with some minor tweaks. I think that taking the silence away from his Q, and adding an interrupt effect and maybe even a slow if you wish, instead replacement of the silence. I also personally believe that the damage on his ultimate shoudln't be as high, or scale as hard as it does currently, and I say the same thing about Chogath Cho'Gath's ultimate and Volibear Volibear's W. I think having an execute as a tank defeats the whole purpose of being a tank. You might think this would render them useless, but I think it would promote proper play within the game where the tanks would have to do their jobs as an actual tank and instead of looking for 1v1 scenarios without their team. Instead, they would have to look for a teamfight where they would have to coordinate their cc and engage with their teams damage and not their own. I think this will help promote the mindset of a team within League of Legends. League of Legends as we all know is a team game but often, especially in lower elo, isn't played like one. I've lost so many ranked games where we were winning but the team wouldn't group, eventually costing us the game.

Another suggestion I have, is to just go ahead and remove all silences and replace them with interrupts, creating an opportunity for player skill and outplay potential to shine, instead of just using the ability on cooldown. You've already removed most of the silences from the game, like the ones from Talon Talon and Kassadin Kassadin, but for whatever reason, not the longest ones that seem to have an even bigger influence on the game, like the ones in Malzahar Malzahar's, and Chogath Cho'Gath's kits. Lets not forget to mention that they are both AoE spells that aren't very hard to hit. (meaning that they can strike more than one target)

I also believe that the scaling on Chogath Cho'Gath needs to be reworked on his abilities and feast stacks. I also don't like how Volibear Volibear's W, an execute, scales with his hp.

Now I'm not saying that these are the only and/or biggest problems within League of Legends, I'm just trying to help bring some balance to the meta. There are stronger things out there right now, for instance, XinZhao Xin Zhao, but overal he does fit his role with his kit as a bruiser/fighter (maybe a little better than he should). Xin Zhao if fed enough could 1v5 given the right scenario, but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a one man team. He does offer some utility with a gap closer, slow, and knock up, but at least he has to play a certain way in order to be successful. I'm trying to promote a more skill based game with higher potential for outplay and a team mentality within League of Legends. Please consider my ideas, thank you for your time.

If you could think of any other champions you'd like to see changed, nerfed, or buffed, please leave a comment mentioning who and why.

4 Comments

PhantomGG2/24/2016, 6:50:18 PM3 votes

you had me at "haveing a execute as a tank defeats the purpose of being a tank"

Critmaster Garen2/24/2016, 7:29:02 PM2 votes

a) youre confusing bruisers with tanks. you cant compare garen to chogath since he doesnt have aoe cc to engage and peel for his team like cho does.

if garen didnt have damage, he would just be a large ignorable chunk of health. any team thats facing a garen could just completely ignore him in a fight and focus on his allies, then focus him down when theyre done with them. whats ge gonna do without damage?

b) you are aware, that he just got a rework a couple of month ago that added the true damage mechanic in the first place?

and turning into a raidboss is the entire point of these champions. garen aswell as the other juggernauts are tanky melee carries. their job is to deal damage.

the reason why they get to be so tanky is because all of them have either low or no mobility at all. compare to champions like Vi Jax Riven and even bruiser MasterYi

theyre able to pick one guy, chase him down and bash his skull in. while champions like garen, nasus, darius usually need someone to initiate for them and the help of their team to be able to get into a spot where theyre effective and able to carry.

its a matter of power budget. less mobility and utility = more defense in return.

Sasogwa2/24/2016, 10:56:51 PM1 votes

At first I wanted to go like

https://mlkshk-ada.kxcdn.com/r/H66G

But well, I'm stupid and have time to lose arguing with someone that'll probablly not take me seriously Let's see

[{quoted}](name=Muhaji is Dad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ci3YQwky,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-02-24T18:47:26.278+0000)

Garen Garen, a champion typically directed towards and used by new players because of his low ip cost and the simplicity of his kit. The meta and the game itself has changed quite a bit, but not so much Garen along with a lot of the older and more simplistic champions like Annie Annie and Chogath Cho'Gath.

I won't go in detail about the obvious bias and half hidden contempt against simple kits, but yes, let's go on.

Garen Garen falls into the category of champions that I don't refer to as tanks or bruisers, but rather as a one man team.

Care to develop? Because Garen can't 1v5, he's easy to kill as a team. But let's say i get what you mean. He's really strong and handles his own very well.

Just like Chogath Cho'Gath, and Volibear Volibear, who all offer cc, high single target and AoE damage, AND executes, all while taking minimalistic damage with incredible sustain (they aren't very hard to play either).

"incredible sustain". Let's say decent.

Another champion that could fit this category is TahmKench Tahm Kench, although he doesn't have an execute, he still has very high base damage, high scaling ratios, and damage that scales with health. These champions with only one damage item, such as item 3071 Black Cleaver for Garen Garen and Volibear Volibear, and item 3027 RoA/Abyssal item 3001 for Chogath Cho'Gath and TahmKench Tahm Kench, and then building tanky from there on out can feel like you're trying to kill a raid boss in the late game.

Yeaa.. depends. Very late game when carries have fully completed builds tanks actually fall off quite hard because they get melted. But that's 6 items lategame.

Anyways, back to Garen Garen, if Garen really is meant for newer players to help them learn the basics of the game, you should rework him along with many of the other simpler champions to help teach new players instead of handicapping them. Garen's kit is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. He has a passive item 3083 Warmogs, no mana pool, an auto attack reset that grants movement speed, deals bonus damage, and silences the target, a built in damage reduction spell, and an execute that can deal true damage.

Yeah, it's a lot of "blabla overloaded ability" for simply, oh he cleanses slows, moves faster and then deals a big attack that silences. You actually forgot the cleanse part :P. Every champion kit can be made OP by saying it in the right way.

It's not just as simple as "It's OP" or "As long as they don't get fed", the players that get used to Garen and this kind of play style that offers so much utility, cc, base damage, scaling, and tankiness will handicap them while playing other champions with a higher skill cap.

Oh really? Cause Garen is just a tanky guy that silences people from time to time. " so much utility " for one single silence as only CC, please.

~~ Like DrMundo Dr. Mundo, Teemo Teemo Veigar Veigar, MasterYi Master Yi,XinZhao Xin Zhao, and Soraka Soraka.~~

I think that Garen Garen's kit can remain the same with some minor tweaks. I think that taking the silence away from his Q, and adding an interrupt effect and maybe even a slow if you wish, instead replacement of the silence. I also personally believe that the damage on his ultimate shoudln't be as high, or scale as hard as it does currently, and I say the same thing about Chogath Cho'Gath's ultimate and Volibear Volibear's W.

Scale as hard? It has literally no scaling whatsoever with items, it's flat %missing health + bonus damage. Maybe you mean scaling as in it gets really strong at lvl 16? In either case, weird word to use. Cho'gath and Volibear... well, how to say it? You seem to think that both are unkillable tanks. Cho'gath isn't played as a tank currently. He's a bruisery AP carry. If people free damage on him, he dies very fast compared to a tank, he just has a lot of damage, his silence, knockup and burst. Volibear on the other hand is played a full tank. 0 offensive items and you count on your scaling with health to deal damage with W. Bores me to have to reexplain that, but in the current state of things, which is kinda fucked up, tanks kinda need to have damage to be able to clear and be a menace in a teamfight. Because people have so much damage, everyone, that teamfights end up 3 times faster than they used to. ADC's melt tank rather hard lategame, and they can't do mistakes because tanks actually deal good damage. And you can't change it without changing balance for everyone. I had thought to do a thread at one point to explain how we were lead to the current state of balance and what are the problems, but I was lazy and it would take me quite a lot of time. Let's try to sum it up : over the years, there's been a drastical rise of mobility, damage and crowd control overall. The mobility creep, CC creep and damage creep. Which explains why towers seem so weak when they actually weren't really changed much over the years. And as CC became more and more crazy, also due to the fact supports were hugely buffed and didn't have 0 gold income as they did before, they became actually more impactful, and to somewhat counterbalance Riot created champions with ridiculous mobility and outplay tools. Vicious circle lead to kind of a powercreep. Anyway, when tanky picks had so much CC and carries had so much mobility, Riot looked back at old champions, like Garen/Darius. Juggernaughts in general. They were trash. Their damage output was only slightly higher than one of a tank and they had garbage CC the only thing that was in their favour was laning phase.. a bit, also they weren't especially tanky. So the only way to make them balanced in a game that evolved to be so ridiculously populated with kite monsters (think Kalista) or CC monsters (think Nautilus,Braum, things like that) was to make them have ridiculous damage output and utility via armor shred on black cleaver. Fight unhealthy with unhealthy.

All that to said, it's nice and all to say it's bad for tanks to have damage, but if they don't in the current state of things, they just won't be played at all.

I think having an execute as a tank defeats the whole purpose of being a tank. You might think this would render them useless, but I think it would promote proper play within the game where the tanks would have to do their jobs as an actual tank and instead of looking for 1v1 scenarios without their team. Instead, they would have to look for a teamfight where they would have to coordinate their cc and engage with their teams damage and not their own. I think this will help promote the mindset of a team within League of Legends. League of Legends as we all know is a team game but often, especially in lower elo, isn't played like one. I've lost so many ranked games where we were winning but the team wouldn't group, eventually costing us the game.

Yeaa... Garen is not a tank. He doesn't have that much CC, so your reasoning is overall flawed there. It's just a guy with high damage and tankiness, a form of bruiser with not that much mobility but very beefy and you don't want to tank his damage too much. Well, a juggernaught basically.

Another suggestion I have, is to just go ahead and remove all silences and replace them with interrupts, creating an opportunity for player skill and outplay potential to shine, instead of just using the ability on cooldown.

?? What is your reasoning on that exactly? If you have a silence, you use it on cooldown whereas if you have an interrupt you don't? Well sure you might be looking for opportunities to interrupt cast but may I remind you we're in League of Legends, not WoW. Very very few spells here have a cast time longer than 0.25s (aka impossible to interrupt even with inhuman reflexes because your interrupt... also has some cast time). So replacing silences with interruptions is just a straight up huge nerf and makes it extremely situational.

You've already removed most of the silences from the game, like the ones from Talon Talon and Kassadin Kassadin, but for whatever reason, not the longest ones that seem to have an even bigger influence on the game, like the ones in Malzahar Malzahar's, and Chogath Cho'Gath's kits. Lets not forget to mention that they are both AoE spells that aren't very hard to hit. (meaning that they can strike more than one target)

Yeah, because some people were complaining. Some other people think silence is a good mechanic that deserves the power it has. It's a matter of opinion really, you can't just straight up say the guys that are against silences are right.

I also believe that the scaling on Chogath Cho'Gath needs to be reworked on his abilities and feast stacks. I also don't like how Volibear Volibear's W, an execute, scales with his hp. etc.

Actually can't go for much more, I'm short on characters ! that's why i can't quote more Overall, most picks you quoted are basically strong one on one champions that are hard to handle if not coordinated. Said in a more rude manner, 'low elo pubstompers'. They're actually balanced and we can't nerf them or they're simply absolute garbage in high elo. Also increasing their skillcap too much with weird 'LCS bigplays mechonics' that don't fit any theme to the champion is useless and doesn't contribute to the aspect of having a simple champion easy to handle for beginners.