"Not fun to play against"

Fuh Queue·7/6/2017, 3:05:44 PM·16 votes·3,121 views

Hey everyone!

I'd like to have a discussion about the quote in the title. I see this quite often when people talk about Yasuo or Fizz, but I'm not entirely sure what's meant by it. Whenever I hear people use this line I immediately feel they simply don't know how to play around a champion's weaknesses. I don't think any champion is designed "to be fun to play against" while it's being designed by Riot.

So my question to everyone here is: What champions do you find to be "fun to play against"? Or is it that it's not about being fun, people want champions that are easy to play against.

90 Comments

deadlychuck7/6/2017, 6:34:36 PM13 votes

Well people are going to have different opinions on this, but i personally consider it to be "a champion, who has more influence over how you play the game, than the champion that you selected."

So in the case of yasuo or fizz, often, it's less about what champion i pick, and how i play, and more about how much I'm willing to change how I'm playing my champion to address their champion. If I've got to change my build, fine. If I've got to hold an ability, fine. If I've got to change my tempo, fine. If I've got to change my aggression, fine.

But it's when champions start making you do more than 2 of these things, then they are no longer fun to play against. I might be able to beat a yasuo 90% of the time, but if I'm forced to play HIS game to do so, all because of the way the champion is designed, it's not fun.

Basically, when playing around the champion becomes more important than which champion I picked, the champion is no longer fun.

Ralanr7/6/2017, 3:15:18 PM8 votes

In the grand scheme of things, no champion is really that fun to fight against. But for the sake of argument, I think it's more the perspective of fighting that champion is what people mean by, "not fun to fight against."

If you see the enemy lock in champions like Yasuo or Fizz , odds are you'll feel yourself (or not, every is different) getting a negative reaction just by seeing them picked. You know the laning phase is going to be frustrating, specifically because of things this champion does that you aren't comfortable with. Or you think that no matter how far ahead you get, they'll come back with a few kills in other lanes and suddenly your lead means shit.

It's all perspective, and judging by high ban rates of Yasuo we can tell that many people do not find Yasuo fun to play against. Yes this is low elo, but high ban rates anywhere can indicate a problem. If anything, I think low elo's banrates should be the most messed up because players would prefer to ban personal picks over "meta" since it's assumed low elo players cannot play the game well enough to abuse metas. Or they can, idk.

So what is fun to play against? Well that all leads to perspective, but it's often what you know you're capable of fighting. I'll bring up Sion as an example because of how telegraphed he is, making him someone you can dance around if you pick a mobile champion.

Rick Yiordan7/6/2017, 3:19:43 PM4 votes

sion is a good example of fun to play against, his stun can be cancelled/avoided, and spamming his abilities during lane phase means that he wont be able to duel you if he doesnt conserve it

though that is compensated by a lot of early damage in his kit

fizz is not fun because his aoe damage is extremely easy to land and cannot by cancelled and usually is only able to be avoid by a quick dash/flash

lofi n chillhop7/6/2017, 8:03:48 PM4 votes

I find these champs fun to play against :

AurelionSol Bard Braum Draven Galio Janna Jhin Karma Leblanc Lulu Lux Malzahar Nami Nunu Sona TahmKench Udyr Vayne Yasuo Yorick

yes, there's a yasuo in there :P

champs I find frustrating, unfun to play against: Amumu Azir Blitzcrank Caitlyn Ezreal Gangplank Hecarim JarvanIV Katarina Kayle Kindred LeeSin Lucian MasterYi Nocturne Rengar Ryze Teemo Tryndamere Twitch Veigar MonkeyKing Zilean Zyra

and most of those I'm not like, afraid of playing. I know ways to beat them, I know I've beat them in the past. some of them I don't even respect, don't think they're playable champs... but they're dumb af to play against, annoying.

and yes, I did in fact leave out fizz :P I almost put him in the "fun to play against" except I hate how if you try to auto him when he hops, you move towards him. that's annoying af but otherwise, eh, he's just an assassin with tricks. I actyally tend to avoid playing against them, predicting their tricks, or punishing them for going to all-in. satisfying to beat 'em, and "hats off honors" when they kill you (and aren't super fed - but all champions are annoying when super fed so I don't count that)

Salson7/6/2017, 7:00:59 PM3 votes

There are 2 attributes that when combined make a champion "unfair":

A champion doesn't need his team to do well
A champion need teamwork to beat

Supports can block Fizz 's entire combo and junglers can farm Yasuo , but people think forced teamwork is the least fun part of the game. This is why high elo players don't mind Yasuo , they prioritize winning over fun even if they have to play around their jungler.

FioraWillCarry7/6/2017, 3:09:57 PM3 votes

Champions are fun to play against when I can kill them at will and farm unmolested.

King of Mongoose7/7/2017, 12:31:53 AM3 votes

"not fun to play against" means "I actually have to use my brain to play against this champion because i only pick ezmode champs like lux"

NinjaGuy697/6/2017, 3:34:02 PM3 votes

What the Riot balance and design teams should actually be focused on is whether or not a champion is fair to play against. This involves an earnest effort by Riot to balance the game such that the maximum amount of champions can achieve a state of equal balance. Although having all champions be equally balanced is likely impossible, as long as Riot balances and designs champions with the goal of fairness in mind, those champions go on to eventually be fun to play while also being fun to play against.

Unfortunately, Riot seems to have an odd obsession with wanting to design "unique" champions which leads to frequent balance issues. I doubt Kayn will be any different once he's released. You'll probably see Meddler posting a thread in a few years saying "Looks like we didn't expect this to happen and we're going to need to change Kayn's E".

Big Lincoln7/6/2017, 4:17:59 PM3 votes

none

enemy fun shouldn't be considered for balance or reworks

Shablagoo7/7/2017, 8:04:34 AM2 votes

I've said this in another thread this is a completely subjective statement that depends on your role, the champion you play, and what type of player you are. Lux Ezreal will always hate say Yasuo is unfair to play against because his kit blocks almost, 80% of their dmg with one skill. Darius Fiora will also feel Kayle is unfair to play against too, because they have to deal with the free harass that Kayle gets and can't do much about it because her kit is so pro-kit and a powerful range kit.

The same can be said with assassins vs adc's, assassin completely prey on immobile squishy targets that allows them to burst that target as fast as possible with little reaction. Adc's are will of course feel that it is unfair to play against because assassins prey on squishy targets and adc are the most squishy.

Also players who like to brawl and love 1v1 say top or mid, mostly top. A top player will hate skrimishers, because their design is based on a strong 1v1 ability, they will feel that its an unfair advantage.

I feel these are factors in what is unfair to play against, when we look at yasuo his kit is strong 1v1 especially late game, ppl will hate that because they will ignore the fact that he is a strong 1v1 champion fight him and say thats just unfair. They take their champions weakness and think that it must be the other champion that is unfair, the same with fizz, against most immoblie targets that have flash on cd, they feel that his ult is bs because if he hits it your dead. They seem to ignore the fact that fizz's burst is significantly hindered with out his ult because its not even save to go in without it.

Another example is zac, with champions like zac with so much cc, the mere fact that if you get hit by cc feels unfair because once hit by it you are stunned for a certain duration you cant do anything. Yet the fact that zac can miss all his skills, that zac's e is actually dodgeable and his q is dodgeable if he misses the first part and is out of range from you and a object to smash. R is flashable if he misses his e.

A champion like Yasuo or Fiora will be highly banned by top laners and I dont think it is unreasonable, because top is a heavy 1v1 lane and champions that are strong 1v1 will feel unfair to play against, but ppl need to understand that just like most champions are countered by other champions these champions can be countered too.

I kind of have a problem with 5 bans but its subjective. Bans seem to no longer have any stragetic value its just I dont want to play against this champion so I will ban him, I dont think it is unreasonable but it really doesn't give ppl a chance to learn how to properly play against a champion in a competitive setting. I dont think it has to do with the strength of a champion because the most banned champions dont even win that often r have the highest winrates, its those that ppl feel are unfair to play against.

Leonerdo7/6/2017, 7:17:17 PM2 votes

Sorry I'm feeling lazy right now, but here's a quote from a Riot Dev Blog:

Counterplay

Rich and exciting fights need to be two-sided, not one-sided. In order to dominate your opponent, you need to consistently outplay them, not just pull off that one perfect kill. League isn’t won at champion select and no phase of the game should be decided before a team steps up to fight. We strive to ensure a player's decisions, actions, and reactions matter. While counterplay is a type of meaningful choice, it’s so important to League of Legends as a competitive multiplayer game that we consider it a pillar of our design values. A fight loses its excitement if the first punch wins – it's what you can do after that adds depth and complexity. We try to prevent hard counters and abilities with no room for reaction, as no game should be over without a real show of skill.

Edit: Dur, I forgot, here's the link

The Sword Saint7/6/2017, 7:17:29 PM2 votes

When players talk about something not being 'fun to play against', what the often are trying to say is that the experience is unsatisfying.

This is subjective and varies from person to person, but there are some common traits to interactions in play that lead to satisfying and unsatisfying experiences.

For example, a player in the mid lane may enjoy a lane matchup where both champions toss around skillshots at similar ranges and the player with the better mindgames, accuracy, and timing comes out ahead.

Whether they are winning the lane or not the experience feels better than a lane where one player has far longer range than the other and harasses with point and click spells until they run out of mana or their opponent is forced to back or die (this is incidentally what most of pantheons matchups top look like).

In the first lane both player had an experience where, win or lose, they felt in control of their destiny and the outcome was determined based on skill and experience, where in the second matchup the player point and clicking on his opponent doesn't feel particularly skillfull to be pushing his lane around and the player getting bullied like this doesn't feel like they have an interesting way to interact with their opponent either aside from chugging pots and hoping to not die long enough for lane phase to end.

BabyNaix7/6/2017, 7:50:20 PM2 votes

Gang plank is fun to play against. He has a mini game that you can play around and time of weakness. Riven is fun to play against too. All her skills are dodgeable, so if she gets fed its your fault.

The Leo Cat7/6/2017, 3:08:12 PM2 votes

Fizz is fun to play against. Yasuo isn't fun to play against, not because of the champion but because how toxic Yasuo mains get.

Tobias Brackner7/7/2017, 12:46:23 AM2 votes

It's "easy".

I will say that Fizz/Yasuo require more knowledge of their kit and what they want to do than most champs. However once you learn that and play against it, it's super fun.

HalcyonDweller7/7/2017, 12:28:03 AM1 votes

Unfun: Champions that remove agency or offer very few or extremely difficult means of counterplay (sometimes this is only in specific matchups).

Example - Teemo, blind makes it impossible to auto-attack, mushrooms offer no way to interact since you have no idea of knowing where they are before you step on them or activate the stealth trinket (which cannot possibly cover enough area to properly counter the traps in the first place).

Fun: Any champion that doesn't take agency away from you, and that you have at least a fair shot at trying to out-play.

Example - Sion, his abilities are powerful, but projected. You are given time to react but he also has the option to cancel / end most of them early.