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Finally done with this game, Ranking System is Fatally Flawed

Jevokan·3/22/2015, 6:27:57 PM·14 votes·2,843 views

The ranking system needs to be based on Total Kills, Assists, Damage Dealt, Creep Score, Buildings Destroyed, Dragons Slain, Barons, Total Deaths, Gold Made, etc (Basically anything positive). No matter what his stats are he can't win LP by losing and he can't lose LP by winning. The stats just determine the multiplier used to calculate how much LP is won or lost.

For example you won: You won the game and you did good in all categories. Your multiplier will be something like 4.0 x the base of say 5. Therefore your total LP gain is 4 x 5 = 20 LP. If you did bad in all the categories you might end up with a multiplier of 1.1. Therefore your final LP score would be 1.1 x 5 = 5.5 LP

For example you lost: You did great in all categories but still lost the game. Your multiplier is something like 1.1 x the base of say -5. Therefore your total LP loss is 1.1x -5 = -5.5 LP

You did awful and most likely fed or trolled. Your multiplier is something like 5.0 x the base of -5. Your total loss is 5 x -5 = -25 LP

You AFK'ed. Your multiplier is something like 6 x the base of -5. Your total loss is 6 x -5 = -30 LP

If someone is afk for 5 minutes at the start of the game you all have the option to surrender with low penalty. So 5 minutes in you know it will be a 4 on 5. You can all agree to surrender and lose 0LP or something really low like 2LP. That beats having to wait 20 minutes for an almost sure outcome and then lose 21LP for something you could not control.

UPDATE: After thinking about the role of supports more and how to properly reflect that effort it seems that the solution to this problem would be to raise the LP gained for assists above that for kills. Therefore if you get 3 kills but 25 assists you will actually get more LP credit than the guy who got 25 kills and 3 assists. You would also get a lot of credit for wards placed. All in all this should average out with some fine tuning to allow the support to be able to get just as much or more LP than the other roles on the team depending on their performance. Another valid point that was made is whether or not to include damage taken in the LP multiplier calculation. I think the best way to deal with it and the role tanks play is to remove it from the calculation entirely.

If you're at the top of the list in any category, or all of them, then do you deserve to lose the same LP as the guy who went AFK or fed the entire game? It's not even that I care about my ranking. I just want some players that know what they are doing on my team at least. I just don't find the game enjoyable when I have 2 totally noob players on my team way below my skill level.

For example say you took down 3 turrets, you slew 2 dragons, your CS was awesome, your gold score was at the top of your team.

With a better system like the one I suggest, you're only losing like 5 LP. Meanwhile the guy who was intentionally trolling had 0 turrets, 0 dragons, very low gold score, very low CS score and a K:D ratio of 1: 21. He was either afk, trolling, or completely noob. I think everyone would agree he deserves to lose a lot of LP, on the level of perhaps 30. This would make it so trolls will play with trolls, noobs, afkers; and good players will eventually rise up from the bottom much faster than in the old system.

I'm finding the ranking system fatally flawed. Your teams are so random and unbalanced its nearly impossible to get ahead even when you carry. It feels like the times you are given a decent team are far outweighed by the times I have a losing team. I don't think the loss of LP is justified when you are the only person on your team with a positive score yet you lose 23LP same as everyone else. I just wen 19:17 with Vayne. Yeah I died a lot too but everyone else had a negative ratio. Three guys had 0 kills. We had a Zed go jungle. He even admitted it was a troll pick. Yet, I lose 23LP as much as he does even when I go 19:17.

Why not let the guy who afk's or feeds and goes 1: 19 take most of the LP loss? It's nearly impossible to get ahead in this system. Why do you think there is so much toxicity in this game? It's damn frustrating. People are so full of anger even coming into the game from the last game. It never fails. I keep my mouth shut even when I'm super frustrated. However, it just takes one person who's doing way worse than me to point out 1 mistake I make to just set me off.

I don't mind losing, and losing LP when I feel I was outplayed or that I caused the loss. However the times I think I was outplayed are few and far between. Noobs are keeping me down. That's the truth. It's the truth for many good players stuck in this tier. This ranking system sucks. I'm uninstalling this game because its just an exercise in frustration. I have never been more angry or frustrated with a game in my entire life. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. This game keeps me in an insane rage. I keep expecting a turn of luck with my teams. It's not going to happen. I may get a win streak, but eventually some noob will screw it up so I've had it. Done with this game. Its no longer fun. Good riddance. I expect I will get a lot of platinum players saying you belong in that tier or whatever. Whatever, that's BS, this system sucks and is fatally flawed and you know it too. Defend it all you want.

You can say I belong in this tier but then you are just speculating. Maybe I do belong in this tier but how efficient is the system in reflecting my true skill and placing me where I belong? How many games till i'm in the tier I belong in? How efficient the ranking system actually places me and everyone else is what I'm debating. If it can place me more accurately based on 10 games than the old one could in 100 then that's a system worth pursuing.

84 Comments

LoRdJeSuS69694203/22/2015, 9:06:03 PM5 votes

Using win/loss ratio is, by definition, the most perfect representation of overall skill you can get. It takes everything into account, because everything influences whether or not you win or lose. Adding extra measures would be creating a bias for certain playstyles, roles, etc., and would no longer purely represent whether you are helping your team towards a win or a loss.

Examples of biases introduced by different measures:

KDA: Some champions, by their nature, tend to be better at gathering large numbers of assists (champions with aoe, teamwide buffs, etc), whereas others may be just as useful, but have primarily single target damage.

Damage to champions: Single target damage to champions also tends to be lower, overall, than aoe damage, so single target damage champions would also suffer here. Poke champions also benefit disproportionately.

CC and damage taken: These are also important measures--but highly flawed in their own respects. Taking more damage does not always equate with increased usefulness--it's more a matter of HOW and WHEN you do it, but those things cannot be measured in post-game statistics. They can only be measured in win rate.

etc. Again, any extra variable you introduce in addition to winrate will skew LP gains in a manner that no longer represents your actual contribution to the game. The truest, purest way to judge how good you are, and how much you contribute to winning games, is whether or not you do win them.

Meurtrierr3/22/2015, 7:17:04 PM4 votes

Dude, how did you die 17 times? You have to rethink about how you play. You can't die 17 times in league when you think you deserve to be higher in the ranking. You don't ever die 17 time in bronze, that's just insane.

I actually have a real excuse to be in bronze. I was silver 2-1 before and i almost went Gold. In the next provisional games for 2015, i only went Bronze 3 because of bad luck. I disconnected 5 times in 5 different games and i won 4 games and truly lost 1 game without being disconnected. I Pay 50$+ dollars a month so i only have my Internet Provider to blame, no one else.

Now, i understand that it's bronze hell, i'm going throught that too, but you died 17 time!!! I never die more than 6 times in a game and that's rare. I mostly die 3 times max in a game so if i lose, i can clearly blame my teamates. Still, i can turn many games with un-carryable team into Victory. You need to communicate, you need to pick a jungler for more teamworking in the early stage, you need to stop being a solo player, you need to teach these bronze players how to play as fast as possible like asking them to use wards or what item to buy. Finally, you need to stop being stubborn. Even if you're AD or ADC, you must sometime build a defensive item to overcome everyone obstacle.

Kristari Zuboro3/22/2015, 6:39:58 PM3 votes

If it were up to me, and I was coding the ranked software -

I'd subtract 23 LP from you even if you won, going 19:17... Go play normals until you understand the game more. Less frustration, and you can concentrate on learning the game.

LoRdJeSuS69694203/22/2015, 8:32:27 PM3 votes

groan

elo hell threads are a dime a dozen. you aren't the first person to think you're being placed with teammates below your skill level. your teammates probably think the same thing about you half the time. get yer head out of yer ass and realize what your mistakes must look like to other people, and that other people can have a bad game without being "way below your skill level."

bottom line is that if you're better than where you belong, you will exert a strong influence on the games you are in, win most of them, and go up in rank quite easily. if it feels like a struggle, it means you are close to where you belong.

Raptamei3/23/2015, 12:11:42 AM3 votes

{quoted}

The ranking system needs to be based on Total Kills, Assists, Damage Dealt, Damage Taken (less is better), Creep Score, Buildings Destroyed, Dragons Slain, Barons, Total Deaths, Gold Made, etc (Basically anything positive). No matter what his stats are he can't win LP by losing and he can't lose LP by winning. The stats just determine the multiplier used to calculate how much LP is won or lost.

Punishment for damage taken?

Okay, guys, who's going to initiate?

No one?

Welp.

Some people made a good point about supports falling behind. Well since a good support will typically get a lot of assists you can weight assists to count almost as much as a kill.

  1. "Almost" as much is not enough.
  2. The support will still steal all of the kills because he gets more gold that way and can use that gold to buy defensive items and therefore die less and gain more LP. THINK.

I just wen 19:17 with Vayne. Yeah I died a lot too but everyone else had a negative ratio. Three guys had 0 kills.

In other words, you stole every kill and fed. Everyone else then fell behind because they had all of their kills stolen and the enemies fed by you.

We had a Zed go jungle. He even admitted it was a troll pick.

Before or after you harrassed him?

I may get a win streak, but eventually some noob will screw it up so I've had it.

You got a win streak because the noobs were on the enemy team, but I don't hear you complain that you don't deserve as much LP because the enemy team had a troll on it.

LoRdJeSuS69694203/22/2015, 9:48:18 PM2 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. I don't think all variables are truly accounted for on an individual basis in the current system. You aren't counting anything twice, you are using the stats to determine how much LP that particular player loses. In the end he still wins LP for winning and he still loses LP for losing. No matter what his stats are he can't win LP by losing and he can't lose LP by winning. The stats just determine the multiplier used to calculate how much LP is won or lost.

My system is not perfect but neither is the current system. But lets be realistic. Which system would you honestly choose to play in if given the choice?

Using your example you say that positive people are not rewarded in my proposed system. How are they rewarded in the current system? How are AFK's and Trolls punished in the current system? The honor and report system? That's laughable.

In my proposed system a troll or afk will feel immediate and dramatic consequences for their actions without the need for a silly honor and report system that barely ever punishes anyone. A positive person will usually play his heart out and that will be reflected in their overall LP win or loss. Plus you can always honor them as you can right now.

Well, you are wrong then. By definition, winrate subsumes all other variables. Everything that you do that influences whether or not you win the game will show up in your winrate...it's literally by definition. Adding in more variables is doubling them up, and counting them twice (because they are already accounted for within winrate). It isn't a matter of opinion, that's exactly how it works. Riot is run by very intelligent people and they know this, and it's why the league ranking system--in addition to ranking systems for other games, works exactly like this.

The only extra variable I would consider supporting some LP tweaking for is when leaverbuster detects AFKs--you could make the winning team receive normal victory LP, make the afker lose extra LP, and make the rest of the losing team lose slightly less than normal LP. But even this is unnecessary. Statistically, afk's provide a benefit to every player who does not afk (as you only have 4 potential afkers on your own team, and 5 potential afkers on the enemy team), so over time you will win more games because of afks than you will lose. The only one who loses out here, in the long term, is the afker himself, as he will lose every game he afks.

Also, the current system does reward positive people--because they tend to win more. It rewards them exactly as much as their positivity contributes towards winning games!

Doctor Dyment3/22/2015, 10:29:34 PM2 votes

Um, not the damage taken one. This would make tanks cry. Also, the gold earned should also be removed. Is like you are trying to make tanks disappear from ranked.

ThePlasticSpork3/22/2015, 10:40:08 PM2 votes

Making ranked work in that manner is pretty flawed.

Consider, for example, support mains. They usually have either the lowest or the second lowest gold value (the only one who might ever have less gold is the jungler, and that's much less true now), they usually have the lowest number of kills, they usually have the lowest amount of damage dealt, they should ALWAYS have the lowest creep score, they don't have enough damage to take towers (buildings destroyed would be a blatantly idiotic metric to add anyway, because that promotes just waiting until a tower has one hit left and then hitting it to effectively steal stats from the rest of your team. Damage dealt to buildings would be better), and obviously they're not going to be securing dragons and barons.

Basically, of the numerous metrics proposed at the top of your post, supports can only ever excel at 2. Those are assists and damage taken - but damage taken is also insanely flawed, because several champions work by tanking damage for the team. They HELP their team by taking MORE damage.

Tanks are also generally screwed by most of those metrics. Tanks deal low damage, take the most damage, mostly deal low damage to structures, etc.

If you ask me, the true flaw in the ranking system lies in the fact that MMR is, in every way except for what the game actually displays you as being, more important than the league you're in. MMR determines your matchmaking as well as your LP gains and losses - so what's really the actual point of the league system in the first place? It arbitrarily makes some games more important than others (for example, suppose you're at 95 LP. Why is your next game only worth 5 LP as a win, when your previous games were netting you an average of 20? Why is that game so much less impactful?), and then you have the frustrating promos system as well. Why are those 3 or 5 games more important? What about them is really different?

Biffolo3/23/2015, 1:04:32 AM2 votes

The system is DESIGNED to keep from being easy to get ahead, and it makes sense. If you want to climb then you need to put in time and dedication to master and slog through it, otherwise you REALLY don't have the determination that is what should be the climbing mentality. This game is not luck, you can win 4v5s, why do you think when people in super high elo smurf, or fuck, even when people at MY shit elo smurf, we absolutely wreck bronze? It's because if you are of a higher caliber of play, you will rotate better and make calls, and you CAN get most teamates to listen to them, you just need to play the right champs, bring the right outwards positivity, and truly trick yourself into BEING that positive to get the most out of ranked.

OmManiPadmeHum3/24/2015, 7:04:36 PM2 votes

{quoted}

For example say you took down 3 turrets, you slew 2 dragons, your CS was awesome, your gold score was at the top of your team.

With a better system like the one I suggest, you're only losing like 5 LP. Meanwhile the guy who was intentionally trolling had 0 turrets, 0 dragons, very low gold score, very low CS score and a K:D ratio of 1: 21. He was either afk, trolling, or completely noob. I think everyone would agree he deserves to lose a lot of LP, on the level of perhaps 30. This would make it so trolls will play with trolls, noobs, afkers; and good players will eventually rise up from the bottom much faster than in the old system.

I'm finding the ranking system fatally flawed. Your teams are so random and unbalanced its nearly impossible to get ahead even when you carry. It feels like the times you are given a decent team are far outweighed by the times I have a losing team. I don't think the loss of LP is justified when you are the only person on your team with a positive score yet you lose 23LP same as everyone else. I just wen 19:17 with Vayne. Yeah I died a lot too but everyone else had a negative ratio. Three guys had 0 kills. We had a Zed go jungle. He even admitted it was a troll pick. Yet, I lose 23LP as much as he does even when I go 19:17.

Why not let the guy who afk's or feeds and goes 1: 19 take most of the LP loss? It's nearly impossible to get ahead in this system. Why do you think there is so much toxicity in this game? It's damn frustrating. People are so full of anger even coming into the game from the last game. It never fails. I keep my mouth shut even when I'm super frustrated. However, it just takes one person who's doing way worse than me to point out 1 mistake I make to just set me off.

I don't mind losing, and losing LP when I feel I was outplayed or that I caused the loss. However the times I think I was outplayed are few and far between. Noobs are keeping me down. That's the truth. It's the truth for many good players stuck in this tier. This ranking system sucks. I'm uninstalling this game because its just an exercise in frustration. I have never been more angry or frustrated with a game in my entire life. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. This game keeps me in an insane rage. I keep expecting a turn of luck with my teams. It's not going to happen. I may get a win streak, but eventually some noob will screw it up so I've had it. Done with this game. Its no longer fun. Good riddance. I expect I will get a lot of platinum players saying you belong in that tier or whatever. Whatever, that's BS, this system sucks and is fatally flawed and you know it too. Defend it all you want.

You can say I belong in this tier but then you are just speculating. Maybe I do belong in this tier but how efficient is the system in reflecting my true skill and placing me where I belong? How many games till i'm in the tier I belong in? How efficient the ranking system actually places me and everyone else is what I'm debating. If it can place me more accurately based on 10 games than the old one could in 100 then that's a system worth pursuing.

+i agree with new system. By definition, no matter how the person is trolling the game (afk, dc, intentionally feeding w/e), they will have lower stats than the people TRYING to win the game. There should be factors set in place for people that aren't participating in helping of the team to make them lose more, or the others lose less. or both.

Very Hard Engage3/22/2015, 8:12:06 PM2 votes

you left out assists. RIP supports.

IcyPepper3/22/2015, 8:17:55 PM2 votes

The ranking system needs to be based on Total Kills, Creep Score, Buildings Destroyed, Dragons Slain, Total Deaths, Gold Made.

Poor supports who aren't supposed to get kills, cs, smite the dragon, have the dps to destroy turrets, will die in order to peel for the carries, and on average have the single lowest gold income of the entire team.

Maybe the ranking system is flawed, but your "solution" is more so. There's only two things that can win a game: the enemy team surrendering, or destroying the enemy nexus.

And does that mean pros should have less LP? They die less often than the average player, kill scores tend to be low in some LCS matches. Does that make them less skilled than the Bronze V guy who got lucky in a game full of people making mistakes and went 21-3?

Zahz3/22/2015, 8:23:13 PM2 votes

sooo supports are suppose to not be supports in order to rank up?

Stephenizgod3/22/2015, 9:38:10 PM2 votes

The problem is it favors high damage dealer roles like Assassins and ADC's, specifically ADC's. These two roles generally get the most kills, least deaths, most CS, most gold, etc. It would also promote certain playstyles focused around increasing KDA rather then winning. Like you are losing so what does the Zed do? He goes and hides waiting for one of them to be alone then kills them and backs off waiting for ult to come back. He will do this all game until he is 10 and 0 then he will lose less LP then everyone else, even though he let all his turrets and allies fall just so he could get a kill.

LXII3/23/2015, 11:24:33 PM2 votes

I would like to see a new system in place as well. I just recently got myself out of bronze where I faced the problem of getting to promos every day, then getting a jackass team, losing them, and doing it all over the next day. Silver is a different challenge all together in the fact that no matter how many times I get a 6-0 start and take out BOTH top turrets my team still manages to blow the lead at some point and I lose. I haven't been over 0 LP for more than 2 or 3 games since I got there. On average I'm getting about 15 for a win and -22 for a loss. Doesn't seem fair to me.

FirstSergeantBim3/22/2015, 7:12:33 PM1 votes

Hey man, sorry to great it to you but if you can't carry yourself out of Bronze then you deserve to be in Bronze. Moving up the ladder means you are capable of consistently performing well each and every game and you can organize your team to focus on objectives. Maybe you can't win a game with an AFK, but you can win the other ones and that's what matters. If it's still too tough, you need to find a partner for DuoQ.

Jevokan3/23/2015, 8:11:40 PM1 votes

You know what the ironic thing about this is? If such a system like I proposed was introduced by RIOT you would love it and realize how much better it is.

But... most of you are so eager just to downplay someone for your own ego boost. You're so eager to point out all my flaws in one game, I don't see you put the same effort into pulling up games where I went 29:4 or something. I just started playing Vayne about a week ago too. I still did great with her in that game considering the circumstances. You can try to bring me down to your level but try as you might you never will. Yeah I must have just ran around doing nothing while my team was fighting and just happened to only hit them once to get the kill. Funny how I have the 2nd highest damage dealt to enemy champions in that game. I also have the highest gold score. There goes that theory. Any other absurd ego boosting theories you can come up with that aren't based on your own skewed perceptions of me? lol

You don't care if I'm right or wrong, you just want to feel like you're better than someone because you're platinum or whatever. You feel like you did it on the current system therefore everyone else should do it in the same bad system. This is your opportunity to brag about it and shit on someone else who has a legitimate point.

You know what, you probably just lucked out finally one time and pulled out of the bronze hole. I could do the same but seriously considering if it's worth the aggravation. Is it worth dealing with more toxic, close minded, ego controlled people such as yourselves...? hmmmm

I could waste more of time explaining but most of you are too short sighted, close minded, and out to fan your egos to understand. You completely throw out that this is indeed a team game where your team does affect your outcome. This isn't solely about your own skill. This isn't chess.

So enjoy your shit system. I really don't care.