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A Case For A Yi Nerf (Not a Rant)

outgoingbimbo·1/22/2015, 11:25:13 PM·4 votes·1,853 views

This discussion will be based around Master Yi, and my reasons why he should receive a hard nerf.

What this is not going to be:

  • A rant about "rito pls nerf cause of OP"

What this is going to be:

  • A dissertation about why some of Master Yi's mechanics are not only harmful to the League of Legends gaming environment, but also how they have little counterplay and instill a mentality of defeat in the opposing team's mind.

*I am going to look at and deconstruct each of Master Yi's abilities to start off, and then see where the discussion goes.

Passive - Double Strike

"Every 4th consecutive autoattack, Master Yi strikes twice. The second strike deals 50% of Master Yi's AD, but fully applies on-hit effects and can critically strike. Double Strike's counter resets if Master Yi has not autoattacked in the last 4 seconds."

To start off, lets look at Master Yi's Passive, Double Strike. As you can see from the quoted text above (which was taken from the League of Legends Wiki), Master Yi has an amazing ability to quickly lay down considerable damage in a small amount of time. While this in itself is not too problematic, as I progress onwards to Yi's other abilities, the issues with the combination of this passive with the rest of his kit will present themselves. So just for now, keep on mind that Yi can quickly auto-attack twice.

Q - Alpha Strike

"Master Yi becomes untargetable and leaps to strike up to 4 enemies, dealing physical damage to each and dealing additional damage to minions and monsters. Each bounce will target the nearest enemy that has not yet been damaged. Master Yi re-appears at the initial target's location after the effect ends. Alpha Strike can critically strike, dealing additional physical damage equal to 60% AD. Basic attacks reduce the cooldown of Alpha Strike by 1 second."

Usually, the Q ability on any champion is the ability that champion will be using the most when in combat/jungle/farming/etc. What this means for Master Yi is that the ability that he uses the most is an ability that makes him untargetable and deals damage up to 4 enemies and can critically strike and has a scaling ratio of 100% of Yi's AD and does extra damage to minions and monsters and repositions him next to his initial target. So the pros and cons of this ability are thus: Pros:

  • Untargetable
  • Uninterruptible
  • Critically strikes
  • AD + upwards to 340 physical damage damage (to minions/monsters)
  • Very good wave clear
  • Very good initiation

Cons:

  • Might lead to death if you q into a fed team
  • ???

As I have been following the Champion Update Team as they have updated so many different champions (Sion in particular), the main thing that I heard from them is that counterplay is key to a fun, equal, and balanced champion. However, as we are just starting off this discussion, you can already see that the counterplay from Yi's q alone is almost nonexistent. Also, with Yi's passive, he is able to quickly get his q back off of cooldown.

W - Meditate

"Master Yi channels for up to 4 seconds, restoring health each second. This healing is increased by 1% for every 1% of his missing health. Meditate also resets the autoattack timer. While channeling, Master Yi reduces incoming damage (halved against turrets)."

In all the champions in League of Legends that have an ability that reduces incoming damage, there is usually a taunt affiliated with it. This forces the target to have damage dealt to them and thus they have to strategically plan who they are going to force to damage them. (Examples of this are Galio, Shen, and Rammus.) However, with Master Yi's W ability, not only is there not a taunt affiliated with it, but it also heals Yi and severely reduces incoming damage, even from turrets. Not only that, but it increases its healing based upon how much health Yi is missing. Pros:

  • Very good incoming damage reduction upwards to 70% and is a flat 50% when the ability is level 1
  • Very good healing upwards to 220 per second
  • Resets autoattack timer (!!!)
  • Turret Damage Reduction

Cons:

  • Interruptible by cc
  • ???

I can present to you just how extremely good this ability is for a champion that will most likely make the most impact on a teamfight and general game via the above empirical data, but I think looking at actual games is a better testament to this ability's use. I have seen so many times that I cannot count where a Yi comes into a 2v5 or 1v5 situation,Pops his ultimate, Qs, autoattacks a few times, Ws, Qs again, and then finishes off the rest of the team with the help of his ultimate (of which I will be getting to later). Master Yi would not have been able to 2v5 or 1v5 an opposing team without the untargetablility and damage reduction/healing of the his W in the middle of the fight. I find that this leads to little counterplay and makes every teamfight with a Master Yi in it an affair of "who is going to die first" rather than the better mindset of "maybe if I outplay this Yi, I can survive and maybe kill him".

E - Wuju Style

"Passive: Master Yi gains 10% of his total AD as bonus attack damage. Active: Autoattacks deal bonus true damage for 5 seconds. Afterwards, the passive bonus is lost until Wuju Style is off cooldown."

This E ability right here is the crux of my argument towards a nerf-type change to Master Yi. The passive part of this ability, I think, is a good addition to Yi. It gives him an incentive to either level this ability up first or level up his Q first, which could lead to interesting uses of item 3075 Thornmail or other types of reactive armor. However, where the passive part of this E ability introduces counterplay, the active portion takes it away. Including an ability into a champion that deals true damage FOR FREE which scales with total AD and also pairing it with a passive that adds a double autoattack every 4 autoattacks leads to very (for the lack of a better word) un-fun games and teamfights. Pros:

  • Extra AD damage passively
  • True Damage of upwards to 30+ (20% of total AD) for 5 seconds
  • No Cost

Cons:

  • ???
  • Not even any?

Master Yi becomes the ultimate cleanup crew with this ability in tow. But we are not done yet.

R - Highlander:

Passive: Champion kills and assists reduce the current cooldown of Master Yi's basic abilities by 70%. Active: For 10 seconds, Master Yi gains increased movement speed and attack speed, and becomes immune to all slowing effects. While active, champion kills and assists extend the duration of Highlander by 4 seconds.

Seeing what Master Yi's Q, W, and E do, one might think that Master Yi's ultimate ability would be something of a speedup so that he could get in range to deal damage and then get out fast without any hard/extreme buffs to him in the meantime, along the lines of Sivir Sivir. This is what we see here with a part of the active portion of this R ability. However, there is more to this. This ultimate passively reduces all of Master Yi's abilites' cooldowns by 70% when he gets a champion kill or assist. This means that not only does Q have cooldown reduction built into it, but as soon as Master Yi turns level 6, he can potentially Q within seconds of his last Q ability cast. Not only that, but his W and E ability are also affected by this reduction, meaning that Master Yi has true damage, healing, and damage reduction abilities almost permanently available. When activated, this R ability's use just increases to giving Master Yi a crazy amount of attack speed and movement speed while being immune to slowing abilites, something that only increases his amount of damage output and cooldown reduction. Also, the active portion of the ultimate is extended when Yi gets a kill or assist. Pros:

  • Cooldown reduction of flat 70%
  • Movement Speed buff of up to 45%
  • Attack Speed buff of up to 80%
  • Complete extension of ability's duration
  • Slow immunity

Cons

  • Can only be stopped by hard cc
  • ???

Final Thoughts on Yi Kit As you can see, Master Yi is (and I hesitate from using this word but it fits so I sits) quite broken when it comes to how he interacts with a game. To be completely honest, Master Yi just makes the games that he is in not fun. I have been in a game where my jungler was Master Yi, and I felt useless because he would just ult into a teamfight or into my lane, Q, autoattack, get the kill, and then leave to another lane to repeat the process. Going against him, I find myself screaming "what?" a lot more than I think I should be when it comes to reading how to proceed against an enemy.

Master Yi is not balanced and has little to no counterplay. But I don't want to leave it here.

Actual Final Thoughts When I listen to the Champion Update Team (and actually all the teams at Riot) I hear time and time again that when one is to be critiquing something, don't just say "its broken rito fix pls", but rather to offer suggestions on how to fix a problem. So, Riot Games, here is my suggestion on how to make Master Yi (who is honestly a very fun and interesting concept) fun to play, play against, and play with:

Suggestions:

  • Either take out the cooldown reduction portion of Q or reduce the passive portion of R to a scaling 30% / 40% / 50% ability cooldown reduction
  • Take out E's true damage, keep the passive, and add an active that increases the passive's bonus damage to a 20% or 30% damage increase for a lower amount of time (4 seconds?)
  • Reduce the amount of damage Q does to minions (25 / 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 ?) and decrease the percent scaling from "100% of AD" to "75% of bonus AD"
  • Remake the slowing interaction in R from immunity to 75% slow resist
  • Make W no longer reduce turret damage (Master Yi is an assassin. Think of Zed Zed being able to turret dive level 4 and survive through an ability that reduces turret damage) and lower the damage reduction to a max of 50% rather than a minimum of 50%
  • Make Master Yi targetable while Q is active but make Yi take 50% reduced damage

I really enjoy Master Yi and I want to see him get to a better place rather than being that one champion that you play when you want to win. Thank you!

14 Comments

Khristophoros1/23/2015, 1:54:11 AM5 votes

You're doing pros and cons wrong. There are opportunity costs to every ability, meaning that there are things it doesn't do. Each strength you lack is a weakness.

  • None of Yi's skills have CC, which means there are many things that Yi cannot do which other champions can do. Initiating teamfights, picking, peeling, etc...

  • Yi's power as a champion is dependent on his damage output, which is very dependent on item scaling. This means that building survivability is a huge sacrifice for him. Meanwhile there are other champions who can build a lot of survivability without compromising their power. This is a strength other champions have that Yi does not have.

  • Yi has to engage in melee to do anything. He has very little poke. Occasionally with Alpha Strike you can but it's not anything to write home about.

There's probably more but the point is, weaknesses are mostly just things that the champion lacks. You're not comparing Yi to anything, you're just listing his strengths in a vacuum.

Sooko1/22/2015, 11:37:05 PM4 votes

I don't know if he needs a nerf compared to plenty of other assassins, but I can give you a few cons about his abilities:

Q: Enemy mobility spells can get you in a bad position Initiating with it = death unless you are really fed Pretty high mana cost at early levels Somewhat random People can predict where you will reappear (my Veigar dark matter plays have sentenced many Yis to death)

W: Costs a lot of mana Makes you unable to attack Countered by ignite or grievous wounds Makes you easy to lock down in the middle of the fray if you are disrupted Only becomes truly effective the lower you are on HP, meaning executes can mess you up Big cooldown

E: You lose your former passive True damage isn't always the best choice During CD = no buffs The enemy visually knows when you are at your weakest Extreme vulnerability to blinds

R: Is still predictable when you approach Makes it very tempting to initiate with your Q (bad move for a squishy) Visually reminds enemies (at least me) to lock you down and kill you as quickly as they can Weak vs knock-backs/ kill denials Without kills to extend its duration (unless its for pushing a turret) = worthless

But I feel you man, a fed Yi is annoying and untargetability makes me want to punch the screen. But Yi has plenty of weaknesses.

GankedByWindows1/23/2015, 1:08:59 AM2 votes

I think you're being unfair under the cons for each of his abilities, which is why you perceive him to have quite a bit more power than he currently has.

Additional cons:

Alpha Strike:

  1. ALWAYS repositions you next to your target, leaving you unable to use it at the start of fights (unless you're a fan of dying), fairly predictable where you're going to land.
  2. Using it removes your gap closer, ability to dodge damage
  3. ability to dodge CC (death)
  4. Removes pressure on enemy squishes of being targeted and blown up
  5. Additionally, Alpha strike is NOT fully reset even if you deal the finishing blow with it, removing the possibility of always being invulnerable, and thus leaving you vulnerable for a few seconds.

Meditate cons:

  1. You cannot use it within range of anyone. Best case you lose health or potential health, worse case you get stunned up and killed.
  2. It costs a fair bit of mana in lane, and a lot of time juggling
  3. Cannot be used to tank tower shots easily
  4. ignite (fairly common) and grievous wounds (item 3165 limit its usefulness of tanking damage in fights.
  5. Makes Yi stationary and unable to attack, leaving him vulnerable and not dealing damage
  6. Heals much less at high health points, leaving Yi vulnerable to burst damage or executes
  7. Fairly long CD
  8. Unless you're meditating next to a support who's blown their CC, it won't save you from a 1v1.

Wuju Style cons:

  1. The loss of the former passive
  2. Time based, huge loss of power if he is stunned and kited until it wears off
  3. Visual indicator for the enemy when a great time to fight you is
  4. Trades the possibility for a burst ability that would help with getting resets for a DPS ability
  5. The paradox that he can either melt tanks with the active, or kill that squishy and then can't take the bruiser (assuming you didn't feed him)

Highlander:

  1. Very very very predictable, you must literally run up to them, leaving you vulnerable for skill shots, stuns, and otherwise free damage. (if you use Q, then they'll just stun you after you come out)
  2. Makes you a very high priority target, and you only have one Q. Can you really dodge everything, and tank what you don't considering you have no real defense ability? 3.Relies on resets to really bring out his full potential. No reset, no potential.
  3. Stuns=at least wasting most of this ability, leaving you with a huge waste of power and forcing you to either run up and take damage, or Q in then get stunned up. It provides an effective way to get to his enemies sure, but at what cost?

I feel like you are overestimating his power because you haven't really played him a lot. If you attempt to play him over a period of time, his weaknesses become more and more evident and that is why higher levels of play tend to shy away from Master Yi.

Seth Lightheart1/22/2015, 11:42:30 PM2 votes

You can make this argument about any champ. While I do think he is strong, your evidence is not nearly as strong as you think.

GranolaGrimm1/23/2015, 4:38:48 AM2 votes

I'll agree with this post in it's general endeavors, but I feel that not everything on Yi should be nerfed. I feel that I never have problems with his W, E, and R abilities, whilst his Q making him untargetable AND having resets is a bit absurd. An Assassin's role in the game is to single-handedly using rapid timing and quick thinking to swiftly kill ONE enemy target, but because his Q is the way it is, it allows him to get pentas, throwing him a bit off the charts when it comes to what his champion should be. So if his Q got the resets removed OR was changed to make him target-able, I'd be fine with that as it would more accurately place him under the Assassin's agenda.

UberAffe1/22/2015, 11:35:45 PM1 votes

I definitely agree with making him targetable during his q as currently it is a miny fiora ult.

JustMyBassCannon1/23/2015, 1:20:20 AM1 votes

"I'm going to list the pros and cons of each ability."

Problem: abilities are not designed with many (if any) inherent drawbacks. They're almost 100% benefit for the champion on any champion.

Let's take random examples.

Varus' W adds bonus magic damage to his basic attacks, and puts stacks on the target that deal bonus magic %HP damage when he hits them with spells. There is literally no direct drawback of this ability; his basic attacks deal bonus damage and let his spells deal bonus damage. The only perceived drawback is that his spells have longer range than his basic attacks, but you're a Marksman, so you're focused on dealing damage with basic attacks anyway.

Yasuo's Q is a short-delay line AoE that deals 20-100 damage plus 100% AD, applies on-hit effects to the closest enemy struck, and can crit for 150% damage (187.5% with IE). Again, no inherent drawback; the only perceived drawback is that you have to "aim" it. Other than that, it's about triple the range of his basic attacks, and is treated as a basic attack in almost every way.

Twisted Fate's E increases his AS, and builds a stack counter; every 4th attack deals significant bonus magic damage. Again, no innate drawback; the perceived drawback is that you have to set it up for it to work properly, but TF is a champion designed around stacking the deck in his favor.

Very few champion abilities actually have drawbacks. The only time you should list the pros and cons of an ability is when you are directly comparing it with another champion's abilities.