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Can we have an actual feel for the difference between bronze, silver, and gold?

Child Puncher·7/19/2016, 5:56:58 PM·41 votes·3,905 views

As someone who started in silver(when i should have been placed in bronze 5) who has worked my way all the way up to diamond over the past 5 years, and who smurfs from time to time, I can honestly say, placing new players in bronze 1 to silver 1 just because they played 10 games isn't helping anyone, it really makes the ranked system inaccurate, and just overall feel really bad to be a part of, you have this mold of 3 different ranks essentially, low bronze to low gold that all feel the same because players are improperly sorted into them

The average new player after hitting 30 often does not really play the game well yet, and after 100 games of play would almost certainly be in mid to low bronze, but the fact that players can win 4/10 games in provisionals, that they had no effect one whatsoever and get silver 4-5 on average really just spits in the face of the players who actually climbed out of bronze and into silver, and it's even worse when players who just barely started playing the game get silver 4 or 3 and end up in games with a few gold players, you then have this game full of people who've played a month or less, and people who've played up to a few years, the disparity is horrendous at best

if people start out lower, there might actually start to be a difference between high bronze and low gold, You have a system that can detect smurfs leveling up based on their average performance, and factoring in their win/loss rate, yet you can't tell if someone is carrying games in provisionals versus getting carried while making no difference?

Please do something at some point, you are literally making this range of bronze - gold a terrible experience for the VAST majority of your players, as 80-90% of all ranked players reside in these areas,

This fits your revenue gaining model, this fits your majority pleasing model, this fits your appeasing casuals model, there is no reason to not overhaul the mmr and LP system to properly rank people when almost all of your players are effected very negatively by this.

51 Comments

Penguin Eclipse7/19/2016, 6:09:36 PM11 votes

I honestly think everyone should start in Bronze 5. Everyone says smurfs will be a problem but if you go on a massive winning streak out of the gate the system already knocks you up several tiers at a time. They will be out of bronze in no time.

dim2a7/19/2016, 8:03:56 PM4 votes

I can't comment on difference between bronze and silver, but I disagree about silver-gold difference. A new player can not usually get to gold MMR by just winning provisional and a few ranked games, it requires consistent winning. When I was in gold I have not seen almost any recently-started-ranked players who did not know what they were doing (it is prevalent in Silver though, yes. But this is a difference between silver and gold).

It would probably be better to place new ranked players at slightly lower MMR, yes, and then have some kind of MMR injection into the system to compensate (I have guess why current riot's system seems logical, but overestimates MMR of new players -- this has to do with how new vs. experienced players treat normals, but it would be too off-topic here)

Mysticman897/19/2016, 6:07:13 PM3 votes

The system actually is pretty good at spotting smurfs and pushing their mmr in the right direction (occasionally a bit too far even).

On one of my various accounts I was pretty impressed/surprised to see myself getting matched with low diamonds before it even reached 30, and I'm not necessarily a diamond level player (currently residing in mid plat).

In ranked I've recently even played with a (solo) silver (that was clearly a smurf) alongside a bunch of low plats, so their mmr was clearly just that inflated.

Smurfs are unfortunate for the legit new players who encounter them in their early matches before the smurfs MMR does get pushed up to levels appropriate to their skill, but for the most part any specific smurf does get recognized by the system, and unless they're actively throwing games to keep their mmr down, that specific account won't spoil many low elo games.

(Also keep in mind that rank itself is almost meaningless. MMR is the only thing that actually matters, so the people who got lucky in placements and play at a B4 level but got placed silver, will still get matched with bronzes despite being silver 5, and similarly those who consistently play at a high level will soon find themselves in matches with comparable skills even if their rank hasn't caught up yet.)

xxxDogmanxxx7/20/2016, 1:09:43 PM2 votes

Dude, in my main account, I won 8 of my 10 placements and got put to bronze 5 at the start of this season. I don't know what the hell was up with the MMR system, since I was plat 1 last season, and Diamond 5 now. Can you imagine my face everytime I go into a game right now? I have a freaking bronze border in Diamond elo.

Noblewind7/20/2016, 4:02:21 PM2 votes

As someone currently stuck in B1-S5 (started playing last season) I have to agree. I find there's players above me who aren't as good and it's only because they got placed there after placement. There are a couple of negative effects to this happening. 1: some of these players should be lower, but they are entering many of a player like myself's games, making it hard to actually climb because every game is like a lottery. These players should start lower down and naturally move up and the competition around the low Bronze to high silver would be better.

2: Based on all this my incentive to climb is lower than it should be. What's the difference between S5 and S3 for example? Not much. Based on all the above points and that of the OP, unless I get to gold then my experience is only marginally improving as I do.

blkh17/19/2016, 6:13:52 PM2 votes

I am god, the problem is riot is just in denial about it. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

HaloDragonX7/19/2016, 8:57:30 PM2 votes

The thing is, the skillgap between Bronze/Silver/Gold is similar while Plat/Diamond/Masters difference is huge. Maybe if league made it easier to get better at the game, therefore forcing B/S/G get better at the game and making ranked more accurate.

Annoxis7/19/2016, 6:17:48 PM2 votes

I think it work that way due to the fact that, while you are unranked, you still play against players who aren't and they still lose or win LP for these games.

Deepthroatus7/20/2016, 11:13:20 AM2 votes

I would make larger bronze = 1 - 10 ... after exatcly won provisionals you would get into division in bronze, if you are good, you climb, if you are bad you stay in bronze, simple. Dont tell me when you tryhard ranked and after 300 games you cant climb from bronze, thats the guilt of smurfs....

Nice Fellow7/21/2016, 12:31:04 AM1 votes

Everything I make a thread about things like this people tell me I'm a shit silver 2 and silver is bronze. But honestly there is a big difference between silver and bronze.

Also I once had a guy who was playing his second rank game who played Morgana who rushed zz portal first item and flamed me, ping spammed me. He said me trading was diving (as jhin) and always black shielded me after Allstars combo. Please I know I'm not good, but I don't need new players playing with me in my games

Changsty7/19/2016, 6:45:00 PM1 votes

I'm not sure whether "average" refers to the entire player base or purely players new to ranked. The median player is at S3, while S4-5 would be something like 60th percentile. If this is the average for new ranked players, then it makes sense to dump most of them into this tier so it minimizes the number of games required to rise or drop into your deserved tier.

Not to say I disagree with you, I had a smurf account which I used to play with a friend new to the game, decided to try getting into bronze to see what elo hell looked like. Went a couple of games as Mundo without throwing cleavers at anything but minions, still ended up S3. Provisionals are pretty arbitrary.

Tourian7/19/2016, 8:22:34 PM1 votes

This is pretty accurate. I remember my first placement getting 6-4 placed in s2 or 3. Tilted down to s5 immediately because i wasnt ready.

Even now in high gold it just feels like slightly more mechanically skilled silvers.

Anags7/19/2016, 10:04:50 PM1 votes

First there is an issue in that some people are actually much better at certain roles.

So you may see a gold player play a role they normally don't and think....my god they don't belong here. Maybe they don't know the best build for that champ or the matchup very well.

When really they are playing a role and likely champ they don't play often enough. Then they might play a different role on a different champ and look like a completely different character.

It will never be perfect. There are too many variables. This isn't a game where everyone has the same champ and items.

I have seen diamond players play off roles and get stomped by silver elo players just because the diamond played a random character they don't know and the silver player is playing a champ they have 500 games on.

So I don't think what you are asking for can actually be done.

CerealBoxOfDoom7/19/2016, 11:57:11 PM1 votes

give customs a try

GigglesO7/20/2016, 5:22:34 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bottom Penance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bN6EvF61,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-19T17:56:58.234+0000)

The average new player after hitting 30 often does not really play the game well yet, and after 100 games of play would almost certainly be in mid to low bronze, but the fact that players can win 4/10 games in provisionals, that they had no effect one whatsoever and get silver 4-5 on average really just spits in the face of the players who actually climbed out of bronze and into silver

They addressed this issue 2 years ago (or something like that), where they thought bronze 5 would be too terrible of an experience for new players, and would just force "more bad games" because of the smurfs that would start at the bottom.

How about we talk about the real issue, boosted plat players?

PiVoRx7/20/2016, 12:42:02 PM1 votes

Actually theres no actual feel of difference between bronze 5 to diamond 5, everyones boosted thx to dynamic shit.

SnowLeopard917/20/2016, 1:29:38 PM1 votes

I'm not 100% sure how it works, but I'm pretty sure that when a level 30 player goes into ranked, their placements start off based on their Normals MMR. If their mechanics are weak, their map awareness is weak, and their gameplay knowledge is weak, they end up in low bronze. As you increment any of those abilities, their overall performance is higher (and their normals MMR is higher), so they end up placed either higher in bronze or someplace in Silver.

Having been stuck in Silver for 5 years (because apparently I don't improve much faster than the overall playerbase), there definitely is a difference over time and over rank (climbing out of bronze after placements each year was so easy just because I have above-bronze mechanics and map awareness, and climbing to Silver 1 wasn't too much harder for the same reasons and because I've gained knowledge about the flow of the game). Playing now with a lot of high silver and low gold players, there is a definite difference between somebody below me and somebody beneath me in rank who has a large number of ranked games for the season, just in terms of mechanical ability. When the entire enemy team is above me in terms of map awareness and game flow, I can see it in action as they out-rotate my team consistently.

So, to answer the title question, I believe there is a pretty solid "feel" difference between the three low-elo divisions. Bronze players suck at basically everything, Silver players have reasonable mechanics and some map awareness, Gold players have solid mechanics, reasonable map awareness, and at least some understanding of game flow. I would speculate that Plat players have solid to excellent mechanics, solid map awareness, and at least a reasonable understanding of game flow, and Diamond players have a very solid grasp on all of these things, being differentiated from the semi-pro tiers only by reaction speed and communication.

redfeenix7/19/2016, 6:00:19 PM1 votes

I think are major differences between the 3. Keep in mind there will be variance. These nplayers cannot play consistently

Bronze: plays that make you go. Wait what ? I never would thought that was even possible how did you think of that? Silver: watches LCS and so they think they know what their doing. Most are fine but some will make you titled. Gold: idk I'm still in silver