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Riot, can we get a few answers on why/how the thought process behind buffing and nerfing champions?

Retillin·1/7/2015, 3:59:40 PM·12 votes·1,078 views

With the uproar over Sona's nerf, we saw a few things out of Riot's own mouth that made me feel I was taking crazy pills. So I put to a few small things down that I think confuse the player base.

I saw, and stayed up to date on, the Sona move speed nerf. Riot Jag said:

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3NL0vjdZ,comment-id=00110002,timestamp=2015-01-06T23:47:12.658+0000)

I can definitely appreciate the perspective that she isn't really crowding out support selection diversity.

So she is not crowding out support selection diversity. It's right there. Riot Jag follows that up with:

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3NL0vjdZ,comment-id=00110002,timestamp=2015-01-06T23:47:12.658+0000)

Understandably, Sona isn't perceived as particularly strong, given that she isn't being picked every game (especially in competitive play), and does not seem like she is taking over games that she is in. That said, we have a lot of tools and data we use for examining the game, and in addition to some of the play pattern issues I mentioned, we do feel that she is on the strong side for supports for a wide range of ELOs. Keep in mind, this is intended to be a pretty small nerf overall.

So she is also not taking over games that she is in. Neither of these things sound like someone who needs a nerf. "she is on the strong side for supports"

So that means the reason for her nerf was that she is a top-ish support in the game (even if we as players do see it) and the goal is to bring her more in line with the rest. I might not agree but I am happy they are working on "balance".

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3NL0vjdZ,comment-id=00110002,timestamp=2015-01-06T23:47:12.658+0000)

  1. Jungle diversity is an issue we agree we can help improve. Next patch you'll see some movement towards what you're talking about (for instance, Hecarim and Skarner are getting a little love).

So jungle is a problem (and has been from Season 2 on). And their goal is to buff Hecarim and Skarner on the PBE. Not nerf the top champions in the jungle but to buff others. Okay that sounds 180% from the Sona nerf. Unless there is some nerfs to the top ones as well that we have not see.

Riot Phreak when talking about the lack of diversity in the LCS and nerfs made to strong champions:

{quoted}

They played mid Janna because she was bullshit. They played mid Soraka because she was bullshit. Pros really like to pick champions that are un-counterable. Their opponents are, just like them, extremely skilled League of Legends players. If you can find a champion that CANNOT be outplayed, that's a really strong champion to play in top tier play. So while a lot of people see, "Oh, Janna got played outside of her recommended lane, so Riot nerfed her," what's actually happening is, "Janna mid has no counterplay, let's add some." And then to pros go, "Oh, this champion has counterplay? Time to find something else to abuse."

Basically saying that pros pick every bullshit champion that they can to win. And to counter that Riot would nerf those champions that seemed to have little to no counter player. I am 100% on board with this!

Each champion in this will have been one of the top 3 picked/banned in NA & EU LCS Season 4 (on average): (not counting playoffs or Worlds, just week 1-11 in Spring and 1-11 in Summer for 22 weeks total)

Top lane Renekten 11/11 weeks in Spring, 0 in Summer Jax 7/11 Summer, 0 in Spring Both of these champs got nerfs while they were at top pick and ended up falling out of the picture at some point. It was the same with almost all the top laners this past year.

Jungle Elise: 22/22 over all Eve: 14/22 over all Lee Sin: 14/22 over all Now Elise and Eve took some major hits by the nerf bat and fell off. Lee Sin did not. So either his nerfs were not enough or the buffs they gave him while nerfing him cancelled out the nefs completely.

Mid Kassadin: 20/22 LeBlanc: 15/22 Both had their silence removed. One keep being a top pick after it. So Kass stayed strong the whole time. Why was he allowed to maintain his level of power (even with the nerfs he was the TOP pick/ban most of the weeks)?

ADC Lucian: 21/22 (the one week he was not picked he was disabled by Riot from the LCS) Caitlyn: 11/22 So we see even with the love taps to Lucian he was allowed to stay strong. While Trist/Twitch/Jinx were hit with nerfs that took them out for large chunks. Does not make sense.

Support Thresh 22/22 Morgana 14/22 Leona 12/22 Every champ had ups and downs, except Thresh. Who even with nerfs was the top 3 support pick ALL year.

I would like, it's a pipe dream, someone from Riot to explain why some champions are allowed to crowd out picks at a pro level while others (Jax, Vi, Kayle, Jinx, Annie) are seemingly put in their place away from the top. If as we see the Pros only pick "bullshit" champs if possible, and they always pick a champion.... well maybe that champion is bullshit and needs a stronger nerf????

So really if we have this much domination from so few champions, we can only come to one of three conclusions.

Number 1~ Riot doesn't know they have a problem. Number 2~ Riot doesn't know how to balance over loaded kits. Number 3~ Riot doesn't care. They WANT Lee Sin. Kassadin. Thresh.

14 Comments

Subject 51/7/2015, 6:07:17 PM6 votes

Riot disregarded the full blown hate and protest of the Sona nerfs and refuse to do anything about the 25 champion pool list that are actually viable in the game for "Professional play." They even stated that it will be going live, IT DID NOT MATTER that we all disliked what they were doing, Via the reasoning behind the Lee sin nerfs. They don't want to nerf Lee or do anything about him because they are afraid of people saying bad things or something like that . . . double standard. It is simply favoring, you mentioned Eve and the spider lady in the jungle but they were hit hardcore and sat in the corner because they seemed Cough unhealthy for the game and how it was played, therefore it is impossible to contest Lee sin in the jungle.

Now lets talk about supports, you mentioned supports. I felt like it was an understatement when you said Thresh was the top 3 supports pick all year, he has an extremely overloaded kit and is capable of assisting his team constantly and consistently. This is not unhealthy, Thresh is considered to be in a 'Healthy' state in the game. Now that Thresh is finally in a 'healthy' state state in the game, Riot can finally focus on those pesky supports who have no kill potential but are just considered to be safe and have no counter-play, Lulu, Janna, Soraka. Now that these unhealthy and passive supports have been removed, we can watch the same supports over, and over again. I hope you love Thresh and Morgana.

I thought i summed it up pretty well on my last post about this sort of topic, but it was for balancing overloaded kits. I'll post it for ya, tell me if you agree.

"-If you are going to make overloaded champions, make every champion overloaded as well. Have you ever competed in a marathon moving uphill against an opponent who has a scooter moving downhill, while this scooter has a jet engine and a 9 foot jet fueled fan that blows 95 MPH winds directly at you as you run for the finish? Yeah, it is pretty hard to keep up especially when the referee is like "Uhhhhhhhhh . . . yeah you can't have shoes either, but the other guy can. And those socks that you have, no no no-try these steel spikes for hand. There we go . . .""

Now tell me how you think all of the older champions are going to even begin thinking about trying to contest the new champions?

Unedible1/7/2015, 6:27:45 PM2 votes

I always thought they had a list of champions that screwed them over in a game. Proceed to put faces of said champions on a dart board. Proceed to throw darts. Whoever gets hit, gets nerfed.

Feathermane1/7/2015, 7:26:48 PM2 votes

I was with you up until the end. JAX didn't get his moment in the sun? That's a load of crap, broken champ since release up until the last few months.

Junkο1/7/2015, 8:09:35 PM2 votes

"she is on the strong side for supports"

Thresh

Diostukos1/8/2015, 4:52:42 PM2 votes

Lee Sin and Thresh will never get meaningful nerfs, they're Riot's special snowflakes.

SmokingPuffin1/8/2015, 5:29:34 PM2 votes

When it comes to pro play, Riot has a significant bias towards interesting, skilltesting, flashy, exciting champions. They're willing to give a lot of rope to Lee Sin and Zed because those champions have really high awesome play potential. Meanwhile, Riot hates it when someone like Warwick or Poppy gets played, because their kits are difficult for casters to explain and not that interesting after the explanation is done. It's quite rational for them to do this, and not just for LC$BIGPLAYS -- champions that are exciting to watch are mostly also exciting to play as or against, too.

The hilariously overblown Sona nerf, I mean seriously guys it's 5 ms, sounds like they regularly study win rate curves across the elo range and concluded that Sona was too high in too much of the range.

JChaosMaster1/7/2015, 4:55:26 PM2 votes

A way to see what they are thinking or a least talking to the forms are nice. "Like we are thinking of massive butf/nerf this champ WHAT do you think" and have a vote on what to do about it. Like lee shin have a vote what to buff or nerf. Just not allow people to post comments

asktiks1/8/2015, 6:01:40 PM2 votes

get used to this kind of BS

been here long enough to KNOW if they do nerf their lcs superstarts it will amount to nothing more than a slap in the wrist (aka sona 5 ms is nothing)

lee sin is their superstart and they WANT him in every lcs , meanwhile the rest of the playerbase can go F themselves if they HATE the champ in everygame

on that note...fizz and zed are also bulshit, garen too reminds me of jax, just stack stats and become unkillable and uncounterable